HMS Gloucester 1939-41 World Naval Ships Forums Archive

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HMS Gloucester 1939-41 World Naval Ships Forums Archive

HMS Gloucester 1939-41

Posts 1 to 40

hi everybody,i`m pete and i have joined the forum to see if anybody can help me in my quest .i am trying to trace my family tree and unfortunatley my dads parents did not get round to tying the knot in fact they threw the rope away shortly after conception . i know my grandads surname was buxton funnily enough from buxton and from the only photograph i`ve got of him is of him in sailors outfit with hms gloucester dated 1919 .does anybody have or know how i can get the crew members list . thanking you in antiscipation .

Hi All, Here is a photo of HMS Gloucester sent to me by a survivor many years ago. it was only a small photo so it is not all that clear. Anyone have an idea where it would have been taken? Cheers Bruce
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It sort of looks like the West Indies. Bermuda?

TERRY, it may be "FREEPORT" the bahamas,before it got well built up..... CYLLA

Even more likely!

Thanks Gents, Here is a copy of Bob's photo of GLOUCESTER entering Malta which I colorized using color photo references. Hope you like it. Cheers Bruce
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Not sure, but she's a Flagship would that close it down. Bruce thats a work of art. Regards Charles

You've made a nice job of that Bruce, well done! Bob.

The sinking of HMS Gloucester by the Luftwaffe on 22 May 1941 during the Battle of Crete was a major disaster for the Royal Navy. Of the ship's company of over 800, only 85 survived. There were 30 seconded South Africans on board the Gloucester of whom 26 were lost. The sinking of the Gloucester has been well documented, one of the best accounts being that by Ken Otter, entitled 'HMS GLOUCESTER The Untold Story' (Pic 1 below). This book gives comprehensive coverage of the action and includes many personal anecdotes. Picture 2 below is from the book and shows the German record of the sinking. Pictures 3 and 4 are of the pages that list the South African casualties. One of the South African casualties was Acting Leading Seaman Cyril Arthur Mitford Stokoe RNVR (SA), who had been born in Durban on 16 April 1914 and who was employed as Secretary of the Merthyr Coalmine at Waschbank in northern Natal. Stokoe had served in the RNVR (SA) in the 1930's and returned for service on 11 December 1939. He was seconded to the Royal Navy on 18 February 1940 and posted to HMS Gloucester on 1 May 1940. His next of kin was his mother, Ivy Kathleen Stokoe (born Smith), who was informed on 3 June 1941 that her son was missing in action. He was presumed dead on 24 May 1945 (Pic 6 below). His medals (39/45 Star, Africa Star, War Medal, Africa Service Medal) were sent to his mother in 1952 (Pic 5 below), and are one tangible reminder of his service and sacrifice. Stokoe is commemorated on the Plymouth Naval Memorial (Panel 58, Column 3).
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Brett, I am thoroughly enjoying these stories you are posting, we do tend to forget that many commonwealth personel were serving aboard some of our ships as well as those from their own Navies. Keep on posting them, they are fascinating to read. Regards Alan

Very interesting. My dad was on HMAS Perth at the time and knew a few blokes on Gloucester. Were there any Australians lost in the sinking? Cheers Bruce

[QUOTE=alanbenn;68071]Brett, I am thoroughly enjoying these stories you are posting, we do tend to forget that many commonwealth personel were serving aboard some of our ships as well as those from their own Navies. Keep on posting them, they are fascinating to read. Regards Alan[/QUOTE] ther war cemetary at Suda Bay, Crete is testament to what you say. It is one of the most emotional expriences I have had. The cemetary slopes down to the bay and you get the impression that the people are still waiting to be evacuated. Unforgettable

Alan Many thanks for your encouraging response. I have a few more posts to make and then I hope there will be more from other South Africans. Bruce There were no Australians on the Gloucester - at least, not identified as such on the rolls. The only 'foreigners' were Maltese and South Africans. The reason that so many South Africans served on RN ships during WWII was that, initially at least, South Africa had no navy to speak of - only small ships such as trawlers converted to minesweepers. I wrote elsewhere that when South Africans like Stokoe enlisted, they expected to be seconded to the Royal Navy and welcomed it. At that time, much of South Africa, and especially Natal, was very loyal to Britain and the Empire. Political changes in the 1950's and 1990's changed all that. Chris Ken Otter's book tells of the involvement of Greeks in the aftermath of the sinking. They were very courageous and helpful and the Gloucester, and other elements of the Battle of Crete, are remembered to this day. Brett

Hi, Anyone know where I can find the movements of HMS Gloucester on the East Indies Station before WW2. Cheers Bruce

GLOUCESTER commissioned 27.01.1939 Sailed Plymouth 15.3.1939 for 4th Cruiser Squadron East Indies via Gibraltar - Malta - transited Suez 28.04 - Aden - Arrived Colombo 14.05.1939. Seychelles 09.06 - 12.06 Farquahar Islands 15.06 Dar-es-Salaam 17.06 - 27.06 Zanzibar 27.06 - 05.07 Mombasa 06.07 - 25.07 Aden 31.07 - 10.08 Colombo 18.08 - 25.08 Aden 29.08 - 01.09 Mombasa 09.09 and 15.09 - 17.09 Aden 22.09 - 26.09 Aden 02.10 - 05.10 Masirah (Oman) 05.10 then to Colombo 11.10.39 above taken from 'Fleet Air Arm aircraft, units, ships 1920-1939'

Thank you for that info Cheers Bruce

[QUOTE=spruso;12703]Hi All, Here is a photo of HMS Gloucester sent to me by a survivor many years ago. it was only a small photo so it is not all that clear. Anyone have an idea where it would have been taken? Cheers Bruce[/QUOTE] Have looked into GLOUCESTER"S movements pre war. She did not visit the West Indies but operated on the East Indies Station. I think I have narrowed this photo to two places. Either Kildini Harbour Mombasa, or Dar es Salaam. Anyone like to help out. Cheers Bruce

Hello, I believe this thread might be misleading the original poster, as [I]his[/I] [B]HMS GLOUCESTER[/B] was a [B]TOWN[/B]-, or [B]BRISTOL[/B]-class light cruiser launched in 1909, and had no relationship--other than name--operationally to the [B]GLOUCESTER[/B] lost off Crete in 1941, AFAIK. The cruiser sunk in WWII was launched in 1937, or 18 years after the photo mentioned by Peter Frisby.

Yes you're right. Maybe the mod. could move this to the RN CRUISERS - 'Post-1925' section or wherever he feels is appropriate. Cheers BC

Point taken gentlemen but as the original poster only ever visited the forum the once back in January 2008 I am leaning towards just letting it stay as it is. After all every other post refers to the more recent cruiser! :)

This is to commemorate the loss of [B]HMS GLOUCESTER [/B]and [B]HMS FIJI[/B], both sunk on this date 70 years ago off Crete with extremely heavy casualties (nearly 1,000 men all told) -- Two very valiant warships. Lest We Forget.

Well said Graham-I did a piece on the SEA BATTLE FOR CRETE and remember how those ships were lost-may their memory abide with us.:( jainso31

FROM WIKIPEDIA Gloucester was nicknamed The Fighting G and saw heavy service in the early years of World War II. The ship was deployed initially to the Indian Ocean and later South Africa before joining Vice Admiral Cunningham's Mediterranean fleet in 1940. Gloucester formed part of a naval force acting against German military transports to Crete, with some success. On 22 May 1941, while in the Kithera Channel, about 14 mi (12 nmi; 23 km)14 miles (26 km) north of Crete, she was attacked by German Stuka dive bombers and sank, having sustained at least four heavy bomb hits and three near-misses. Of the 807 men aboard at the time of her sinking, only 85 survived. Her sinking is considered to be one of Britain's worst wartime naval disasters. The circumstances of the sinking were featured by a BBC programme. According to this, the despatch of Gloucester, alone and low on fuel and anti-aircraft ammunition (less than 20% remaining), into danger was a "grievous error". Furthermore, the failure to attempt to rescue survivors after dark was "contrary to usual Navy practice". A survivor commented "The tradition in the Navy is that when a ship has sunk, a vessel is sent back to pick up survivors under cover of darkness. That did not happen and we do not know why. We were picked up by Germans." Another account of the sinking differs from, and adds to, the BBC report. In this, Gloucester and Fiji, both already low on ammunition, had been sent to support the rescue of survivors from the destroyer Greyhound. Fierce air attacks further depleted their ammunition and they were given permission to rejoin the main fleet. It was during their return that Gloucester was sunk. Fiji was sunk later the same day. On 30 May 1941, in a letter to the First Sea Lord, Sir Dudley Pound, Admiral Cunningham wrote, "The sending back of Gloucester and Fiji to the Greyhound was another grave error and cost us those two ships. They were practically out of ammunition but even had they been full up I think they would have gone. The Commanding Officer of Fiji told me that the air over Gloucester was black with planes." A fully detailed story is given by following the link below [URL]http://www.world-war.co.uk/gloucester_singer.php3[/URL] jainso31

On 30 May 1941, in a letter to the First Sea Lord, Sir Dudley Pound, Admiral Cunningham wrote, "The sending back of Gloucester and Fiji to the Greyhound was another grave error and cost us those two ships. They were practically out of ammunition but even had they been full up I think they would have gone. The Commanding Officer of Fiji told me that the air over Gloucester was black with planes." This was, IMO ,a grave error by R/Adm King and unquestionably led to the demise of these ships- particularly as they were dangerously short of AA ammunition.He also broke the unwritten law of keeping the ships in his Force TOGETHER.This has been discussed before. jainso31

Further to the above Adm.Cunningham instructed Adm. Rawlings' Battle Squadron to support Adm. King, and Rawlings obediently took his ships into the inferno. The two forces met in the early afternoon. Warspite was almost immediately hit by a 1000lb bomb which knocked out all her secondary armament on the starboard side. At this point nearly all of the effective British naval strength in the eastern Mediterranean lay in the confined waters of the Aegean Sea, in broad daylight, within easy range of German aircraft. From now on a series of errors led to disaster. German aircraft found and sank the destroyer Greyhound, which bizarrely had been detached to sink a lone caique. King detached the destroyers Kandahar and Kingston to pick up survivors, and the cruisers Gloucester and Fiji to provide AA cover. Both the cruisers had already expended three quarters of their AA ammunition but King was unaware of this as they had only come under his command when his squadron met with Rawlings. When King realised the situation he ordered the cruisers back but it was too late. jainso31

Rescue operations in dangerous situations obviously incur a great deal of risk and the heroism of the rescuers cannot be understated. In this case the risk was extreme and the capability of the rescuers was impaired by lack of ammunition and timing - daylight. It may have been a bad decision to send them - probably made in haste when the Greyhound's situation became apparent, without full assessment of the state of the two cruisers. It brings to mind another rescue operation much earlier in the war that was ultimately successful but came very close to being a unimaginably disastrous and embarrassing moment for the RN and Britain.. This was the rescue of the submarine Spearfish in September 1939 in which Hood and Ark Royal were bombed by the Luftwaffe. The Germans claimed Ark Royal was sunk, but it was Hood that was struck by a bomb amidships on her port side exploding against the upper strake of her belt armour. In most accounts the damage was dismissed as trivial and according to Bradford "the ship was unhurt". That was far from the truth. The truth was that the concussion inflicted severe damage on the ship's condensers, which were in a bad state to begin with, bringing them to the verge of collapse. Were it not for the skill of her engineering crew, the ship could have gone completely dead in the water leaving her an easy target for further attack by aircraft and u-boats. Can you imagine the headlines!? With the war less than a month old.."Hood sunk! Pride of the British Fleet destroyed by Luftwaffe in the North Sea"? Goering would have had a field day! As it were, she quietly limped away to have her damage repaired. But, back to the topic at hand. It is unfortunate indeed that the RN lost two very valuable cruisers here, but the Crete operation was extremely difficult and dangerous - again showing that in order to control the sea, you must control the air.

And control the air that we could not do-there was just a very small Desert Air Force at that time ie M E (Cairo) Command had six Squadrons of Hurricanes covering the Desert campaign.One Sqadron of Hurricanes at Takali MALTA and another at Maleme (May 1941).-then to Cairo Command.By the same month May 1942-the number of fighter Squadrons had almost trebled. The loss of the two cruisers was IMHO was completely unjustified-looking at all the circumstances. jainso31

[quote=jainso31;10032237]"The sending back of Gloucester and Fiji to the Greyhound was another grave error and cost us those two ships. They were practically out of ammunition but even had they been full up I think they would have gone. The Commanding Officer of Fiji told me that the air over Gloucester was black with planes." [/quote] Surely the senoir of the Captains involved should ahve pointed that out to the sender? Cunninghams quip about 3 yrs to build a ship, 300 to make a tradition seems a bit limp when 9 ships went to the bottom with another 18 with damage that keep them out of action for months. That must be nearly all his fleet with damage of some degree. Was it worth it?

The Battle of Crete and it's aftermath was one of Churchill's folly's-the land battle was a tragedy of errors and the subsequent evacuation of the army was fraught with danger ;particularly from the air.When Adm. King ordered two destroyers and then two AA cruisers to attend a destroyer which was already sunk-no Captain would have demurred over his orders from the Admiral OR complained about lack of AA ammo-it just was not done. Fiji's captain who survived- subsequently told Adm. Cunningham about the situation AFTER he had carried out Adm.King's order.Such was our Royal Navy at that time.Yes the Med. Fleet was left in near crisis. Thank you for your interest and post Paul. jainso31

Naval forces Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean Fleet - Admiral Sir Andrew B. Cunningham Forces A1 Force A1- Rear Admiral H. B. Rawlings (R.A., 7th Cruiser Squadron) Queen Elizabeth class battleship HMS Warspite (03) - Captain D.B.Fisher HMS Valiant (02) - Captain C.E.Morgan G and H class destroyers HMS Greyhound (H05) - Cmdr. W.R.Marshall-A'Deane, Sunk 22 May 1941 HMS Griffin (H31) - Lt. K. R. C. Letts HMS Havock (H43) - Lt. G. R. G. Watkins HMS Hero (H99) - Cmdr. H. W. Briggs J class destroyer HMS Jaguar (F34) - Lt. Cmdr. J. F. W. Hine [edit]Force B Force B - Admiral Rawlings Light cruisers HMS Gloucester (62) - Capt. Henry A. Rowley, sunk 22 May 1941 with loss of 722 crew HMS Fiji (58) - Capt. P.B.R.W. William-Powlett, sunk 22 May 1941 HMS Orion (85) - Capt. G.R.B. Back HMS Dido (37)- Capt. H.W.V. McCall Destroyers HMS Decoy (H75) - Cmdr. E.G. McGregor HMS Hereward (H93) - Lt. W.J. Munn, sunk by enemy aircraft 29 May 1941. HMS Hotspur (H01) - Lt.Cmdr. C.P.F. Brown HMS Imperial (D09) -Lt.Cmdr. C.A.De W. Kitcat, sunk 29 May 1941 off Crete HMS Jackal (F22) - Lt.Cmdr. M.P. Jonas HMS Kimberley (F50) - Lt.Cmdr. J.S.M. Richardson Force C Force C - Admiral King (C.O. 15th Cruiser Squadron) Ship Commander Armament Tonnage Remarks HMS Naiad (93) Capt. M.H.A.Kelsey light cruiser HMAS Perth (D29) Capt. Sir P.W.Bowyer-Smyth 8x6 inch guns 8x4 inch guns 4x3 pdr guns 8x21 inch torpedo tubes 6,830 tons Sunk 1 March 1942 Sunda Strait HMS Kandahar (F28) Cmdr. W.G.A.Robson destroyer HMS Nubian (F36) Cmdr. R.W.Ravenhill destroyer HMS Kingston (F64) Lt.Cmdr. P.Sommerville destroyer HMS Juno (F46) Cmdr. St.John Tyrwhitt Sunk 21 May 1941 HMS Calcutta (D82) Capt. D.M.Lees Anti-Aircraft cruiser Sunk 1 June 1941 within one hundred miles of Alexandria [edit]Force D Force D - Rear-Admiral I.G.Glennie Destruction of Lupo Convoy (21–22 May 1941) Ship Commander Notes Dido, light cruiser Capt. H.W.McCall Orion, light cruiser Capt. P.B.R.W. William-Powlett Ajax, light cruiser Capt. E.D.B. McCarthy Damaged HMS Janus (F53), destroyer Cmdr. J.A.W. Tothill HMS Hasty (H24), destroyer Lt.Cmdr. L.R.K. Tyrwhitt[4] HMS Hereward (H93), destroyer Lt. W.J. Munn Sunk by enemy aircraft 29 May 1941 HMS Kimberley, destroyer Lt.Cmdr. J.S.M. Richardson [edit]Force E Force E - Captain J.P.Mack (CO 14th Destroyer Flotilla) HMS Ilex (D61) - Capt.(D2) H. St L. Nicholson HMS Jervis (F00) - Capt.(D14) P. J. Mack HMAS Nizam (G38) - Lt. Cmdr. Max Joshua Clark HMS Carlisle (D67) - Capt. T. C. Hampton [edit]5th Destroyer Flotilla 5th Destroyer Flotilla - Captain Mountbatten HMS Kelly (F01) - Capt. Lord Louis Mountbatten, Sunk 23 May 1941 HMS Kashmir (F12) - Cmdr. H.A.King, Sunk 23 May 1941 HMS Kelvin (F37) - Cmdr. J.H.Alison HMS Jackal (F22) - Lt.Cmdr. M.P.Jonas HMS Kipling (F91) - Cmdr. A.St.Clair-Ford Evacuation Fleet This section requires expansion. Sphakia evacuation force - Rear-Admiral King HMS Phoebe (43) - Captain G.Grantham, light cruiser HMAS Perth - Captain Sir P.W.Bowyer-Smith, light cruiser HMS Coventry - Captain W.P.Carne, light cruiser HMS Calcutta - Captain D.M.Lees, Anti-aircraft cruiser, sunk 1 June 1941 with 255 survivors HMS Glengyle - Captain C.H.Petrie, Landing Ship, Infantry (Large) HMAS Napier (G97) - Capt. Stephen Harry Tolson Arliss RN, N-class Flotilla Leader. HMAS Nizam (G38) - Lt. Cmdr. Max Joshua Clark HMS Kelvin (F37) - Cmdr. J.H.Alison HMS Kandahar (F28) - Cmdr. W.G.A.Robson jainso31

[B][B] SURVIVORS[/B][/B] The failure to attempt to rescue survivors after dark was "contrary to usual Navy practice". A survivor commented [B][B]"The tradition in the Navy is that when a ship has sunk, a vessel is sent back to pick up survivors under cover of darkness. That did not happen and we do not know why. We were picked up by Germans."[/B][/B] jainso31

Im in New Zealand and have a scrap book relating to the Gloucester that I am trying to find information about. The scrapbook relates to a person called Ernest Evans and it has the Gloucesters emblem drawn on the first page. It has some sketches and a lot of newspaper/ magazine clippings from the war (a lot in German). According to a letter in one of the early pages the scrapbook was found in a German concentration camp after it was liberated - from the limited information I have been able to find out the Gloucester's survivors were in fact transfered to Germany for imprisonment. So what I would like to know is where can I look to find out if Ernest Evans was onboard the Gloucester and what happened to him after the war? Thank you - Alan Nicholls

Hi from New Zealand. Im trying to find out about Ernest Evans who I understand was crew and a survivor from HMS Gloucester. How can I find out the names of the crew and get a list of survivors? Thanks and regards Alan Nicholls

Hello Carisbrook and welcome to the Forum. I have moved both of your posts to this existing thread on Gloucester and hope someone can help you. With regard to crew list and survivors, I am not sure if a full crew list from that time exists. Its possible that someone has undertaken their own research and compiled such a list and I hope one will come to light. If you know where he lived when the ship was sunk, it is possible that the local press carried an article with names of local survivors. I was able to obtain names in that way for Royal Oak. The [URL="http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1940-01-01/1942-12-31?sortorder=score&basicsearch=%2bh.m.s.%20%2bgloucester%20%2bsurvivor&freesearch=h.m.s.%20gloucester%20survivor"]British Newspaper Archive[/URL] is searchable and may come up trumps, although you will need to subscribe if you identify anything on your initial search which you want to view in detail. HMS Gloucester survivors have a website, the [URL="http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/hmsgloucesterww2/index.phtml"]Fighting G[/URL] club and you may get some answers to your questions there. I am sure they will be pleased to hear of the scrapbook about her. Jim

[B][B]POSTSCRIPT[/B][/B] On 22 May 1941, while in the Kithera Channel, about (12 nmi; 14 miles) north of Crete, the Goucester was attacked by German Ju 87 dive bombers and sunk, having sustained at least four heavy bomb hits and three near-misses. [B][B] Of the 807 men aboard at the time of her sinking, only 85 survived. Her sinking is considered to be one of Britain's worst wartime naval disasters[/B][/B] jainso31

[QUOTE=jainso31;10032752][B][B] SURVIVORS[/B][/B] The failure to attempt to rescue survivors after dark was "contrary to usual Navy practice". A survivor commented [B][B]"The tradition in the Navy is that when a ship has sunk, a vessel is sent back to pick up survivors under cover of darkness. That did not happen and we do not know why. We were picked up by Germans."[/B][/B] Can any member offer an explanation to the question "Why were the Gloucester's survivors abandoned"??? jainso31

[QUOTE=jainso31;10086187][QUOTE=jainso31;10032752][B][B] SURVIVORS[/B][/B] The failure to attempt to rescue survivors after dark was "contrary to usual Navy practice". A survivor commented [B][B]"The tradition in the Navy is that when a ship has sunk, a vessel is sent back to pick up survivors under cover of darkness. That did not happen and we do not know why. We were picked up by Germans."[/B][/B] Can any member offer an explanation to the question "Why were the Gloucester's survivors abandoned"??? jainso31[/QUOTE] Jim A sailor's wondering only. I am sure they were not abandoned deliberately. Their Wireless Office was damaged so I suspect no signals were able to be sent. That would leave just Fiji aware that Gloucester had sunk. Fiji was also sunk, whether she had been able to make any reports is questionable. There was a lot going on with continuous air attacks in the main fleet, maybe no signal was received or was it lost in the heat of battle.? Were there any destroyers undamaged that could be sent ? Were they unable to find the survivors in the dark ? What happened to Fiji's survivors ? Was there an inquiry or other reports which give the real story? Brian

GM Brian another "hot potato" which you have handled adroitly and resevedly -thank you- HMS Fiji was was sunk shortly after Gloucester; and after dark destroyers Kandahar and Kingston picked up 523 of her survivors including the captain; and being now exhausted left the scene.However there is nothing on the web to indicate why Gloucester was not aided in the same manner; other than to assume that Kandahar and Kingston could do no more.The link only gives some extra detail including permission to Gloucester to "withdraw at discretion"whatever that really means. The was some obfuscation in signals to Adm. Cunningham from Adm. King, as to whether he had sent unarmed (AA) cruisers to aid a sunk destroyer Greyhound.All a bit of a mess I am afraid. jainso31 [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/281741.stm[/url]

Jim If you compare the report of the Doc in 'Gloucester' with the one by the Mid in 'Newfoundland', you will see the difference I was explaining. Brian

Brian -Having now read read the two separate reports-I can see the difference in the very "maturity" of the the two reporters-the Doc is cool,clear and saying what he saw and experienced; against the Middie's somewhat immature statement, in which opinion is evident; and therefore "coloured" jainso31

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