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HMS Nelson 1925-1949 World Naval Ships Forums Archive

HMS Nelson 1925-1949

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26 May 1927 - Spectators on the Cornwall coast saw a weird ship doing her steaming trials over the Royal Navy's test course; unlike any ship they had ever seen before, clearly a warship, but all her superstructure was crowded aft. An odd-looking battleship indeed. She was commissioned at Portsmouth on 15 Aug 1927, and Portsmouth remained her home port throughout her life. During gunnery tests, the new 16-inch guns had numerous teething troubles, and caused more blast damage than had been expected. Barrel life fell short of the proven 15-inch gun's endurance. Nonetheless, in October 1927, the "Nellie" became the flagship of the Home Fleet, which she remained until 1941. Before the war she mostly served in home waters, but went to Gibraltar and the Mediterranean for annual naval exercises. She also ventured as far as the Baltic and the Pacific, on making her first transit of the Panama Canal. In 1932-33, she underwent modifications to her bridge, had two MK.V eight-barrelled anti-aircraft guns added, and had multiple machine-guns fitted on the control tower. Between 1935 and 1938, the Royal Navy continued modernizing Nelson. She participated in testing the experimental "Walrus" amphibian aircraft she had. Horizontal armour was added; high angle gun-control was improved, and a crane was fitted in the port waist. As the Navy recognized the growing threat of airpower, even more anti-aircraft "pom-pom" guns were added near the funnel and on the quarterdeck. And in 1939, that's how she went to war. [B]SPECIFICATIONS[/B] Displacement: 33,950 tons (38,000 tons full load) Length: 710 ft (216.5 m) (overall) Beam: 106 ft (32 m) Draught: 33 ft (10 m) Propulsion: 8 3-drum superheated boilers 2 Brown-Curtiss single reduction geared turbines, 2 screws, 45,000 hp (33.6 MW) Speed: 23.5 knots (43.5 km/h) (trials) Range: 7,000 nautical miles (13,000 km) at 16 knots (13,000 km at 30 km/h) Complement: 1,361 Armament: (1945): Armour: 14 inch (356 mm) midships 6.75 inch deck 16 inch (406 mm) turret face 13.4 inch (330 mm) conning tower sides Not the prettiest ships that ever sailed. Below are photos showing her most unusual profile.
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The Nelson and the Rodneywere not the best looking ships to come out of British slips. How were generally appreciated by crews, as to their ship's capabilities? Is it correct that they could not fire a nine-gun concurrent broadside, as it caused structural damage to the ships?

[B]The Malta Convoy[/B] We set off from Gibraltar in August 1942 on HMS Nelson en route to Malta. We had 14 merchant ships to escort as well as the Indomitable, Indefatigable and Victorious. The Spanish had sent signals to the Germans that a big convoy had left Gibraltar so they knew that we were on our way there and of course they were waiting for us. We had to go through “bomb alley”. Just astern of us was the Eagle, one of the aircraft carriers, and it was torpedoed and sunk. They lost about 800 men and all the planes. I was in the 16inch gun magazine at the bottom of the ship. The Nelson had nine 16inch guns, as did the Rodney our sister ship. Each shell weighed a ton and had to be lifted hydraulically from the magazine into the loading tray. Our skipper was Vice Admiral Neville Syfret, a wonderful man, and he was in charge of the convoy. I’ll never forget it — I’m down in the magazine with my mates, stripped to the waist because the temperature was 125°F down there. We had iron rations, chocolate and glucose, because once you closed the hatches they were never opened until the action was over and we knew we were going to be in action for a long time. It came over the tannoy system that the first wave of torpedo bombers were attacking us at about 500 at a time. The Admiral gave the order to elevate the guns as high as they could go and we let loose with them. You can imagine nine 16inch shells which weight a ton opening up at the planes — they scattered everywhere. Then another wave came and we lost quite a few ships and cruisers. Out of the original 14 merchant ships only five got into Malta — enough to save the island. One of those was the Ohio, a very important ship carrying kerosene and diesel for the aircraft. The way they got it into Malta harbour was very clever. Two destroyers got either side and put steel hawsers, one round the bows and one round the stern, in a sort of cradle. The men were lying dead on the upper deck. After five days we got back to Gibraltar — at a cost, the Indomitable aircraft carrier was also lost. HMS Indomitable and HMS Eagle below
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The Malta experience! What a frightful thing that was. And not only Allied shipping and crews but the inhabitants suffered so badly. You remember that Jack Hawkins film Sailor? Another of the "good 'ol days" movies!

Congrats on your fourth stripe Herk. No I'm not sure which movie that was actually. What was it's title?

Here are a few more pics for the collection. Three of the Eagle. One of the Indomitable Portsmouth 1953. ( I had just reached the dizzy heights of Ordinary seaman then. One of the Nelson. This picture always intrigues me. It is Nelson's "B" turret. Look between the Boom and the top of the Boot topping and you will see a row of porthole size circles filled in. Any Ideas? The last one is of one of those big bullets they had to shift about.
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British Gunnery procedure generally precluded the use of broadsides unless the range had closed or there was a certainty of hitting. Any damage inflicted by the guns was entirely superficial which while unacceptable during peacetime conditions was of course quite fine during wartime. There was a problem in the beginning with the bridge area becoming inhospitable, but this was solved for the most part by baffles. I don't know, they look rather good for a battleship. The all-guns-forward arrangement certainly conveys a "don't mess with me look". Then again, I find the 12-inch gunned British ships all attractive! Harley

Jeff As you have mentioned them and unless posted elsewhere, would you like to explain how Nelson and Rodney got their rather unkind knicknames? Regards....John

Sorry to butt in Herk but I'm treating Sailors question as a mini quiz. The film with Jack Hawkins and Alec Guiness was called 'The Malta Story' released in 1953. Regards....John

Do you mean the row of seemingly blanked out portholes below the bottom row of conventional portholes Bob? I have a question. I am surprised that there are portholes {and a double row at that} adjacent to the turret base and magazine lifts at all. I would have thought that it would have weakened the armoured hull at that crucial point? I am sorry about the BB-11 mistake when I typed it up. This is a quirk in the board software and although the name can be changed in the post ie 28, it won't change on the header leader. I have told Kc of this problem.

quote: [I]I don't know, they look rather good for a battleship. The all-guns-forward arrangement certainly conveys a "don't mess with me look". [/I] There was a thought that mounting all the armament at the front had something to do with "the chase" Harley. Italian battleships were very heavily gunned on the stern. Italian battleship Giulio Cesare below
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Yes Graeme those are the ones I am on about. Here are a couple more pictures of the lady in question. There are a few acres of awnings on the first one!
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Well if I had to guess on it I'd say they simply look like a third row of portholes that have been welded up after a change of mind on the design Bob.

There's an awful lot of them and they are pretty close together, no wonder they changed their minds!

How about my question further back in regard to having portholes in that area at all?

[QUOTE=John Brown;2556]Jeff As you have mentioned them and unless posted elsewhere, would you like to explain how Nelson and Rodney got their rather unkind knicknames? Regards....John[/QUOTE] There were two oilers being built at the same time with similar names, i.e. ending in "ol". Sailor, the armament layout was dictated by restrictions, of sorts. The RN had asked for a battleship of 45,000 tons with 9 18-inch guns, design N3. All guns forward meant the citadel didn't have to be too long and consequently not as much armour on the all-or-nothing principle. Then the Washington Treaty came along and the RN tried to fit 9 16-inch guns and as much stuff possible into a 35,000 ton hull. End-on-fire had long been abandoned in favour of broadsides, and the habit of the Italians, and the Americans too, to build ships with uniform main armaments at either end, was just the attempt to get as alrge a broadside as possible. Harley

I wasn't ignoring your question Graeme, I find that nearly all ships have portholes running the length of the hull excluding the engine and boiler rooms.Don't forget that the magazines are well below the water line and that the main turrets are complete units of their own sitting inside of the hull. See here:- [url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/Animated_gun_turret.gif/300px-Animated_gun_turret.gif[/url] Bob.

John, As Harley said, it was due to their more-than-passing similarity in appearance to oilers of the day.

Jeff and Harley Between you I think you have almost given the answer I was looking for. I had heard that the ships looked, in silouette, remarkably like the tankers operated by a particular line whose ships names all ended in 'ol'. I can't remember the name of the line. Do either of you know it? Regards...John

[QUOTE=Batstiger;2580]I wasn't ignoring your question Graeme, I find that nearly all ships have portholes running the length of the hull excluding the engine and boiler rooms.Don't forget that the magazines are well below the water line and that the main turrets are complete units of their own sitting inside of the hull. See here:- [url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/Animated_gun_turret.gif/300px-Animated_gun_turret.gif[/url] Bob.[/QUOTE] That's a pretty neat working diagram Bob. Thanks for including it. Fantastic engineering a multiple turret.

[quote=John Brown;2589]Jeff and Harley Between you I think you have almost given the answer I was looking for. I had heard that the ships looked, in silouette, remarkably like the tankers operated by a particular line whose ships names all ended in 'ol'. I can't remember the name of the line. Do either of you know it? Regards...John[/quote] No, John, unfortunately I don't know the line of ships. I just remember reading of the substitute name in one of my books and finding it to be comedic. I did find the below ships at this site [URL]http://www.naval-history.net/WW2BritishLosses5Support.htm[/URL] that fit the naming convention. Maybe a search of the names could render the line? [FONT=Arial]BIRCHOL (1,115t, 1917), wrecked off Hebrides, W of Scotland, November 29, 1939[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]FRANCOL (2,623t, 1917), sunk by gunfire of Japanese surface craft, S of Java, March 3, 1942[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]MONTENOL (2,646t, 1917), torpedoed by U-boat, North Atlantic. Sunk by own forces, May 21, 1942[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]SLAVOL (2,623t, 1917), sunk by U-boat torpedo sailing for Tobruk, Libya, March 26, 1942[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]I went ahead and did a search and found this on the Montenol at [URL="http://ubootwaffe.net/ops/ships.cgi?boat=159;nr=1"]this site[/URL]. Looks like it was owned by the King's government.[/FONT] [B]tons[/B] 2,646 [B]type[/B] Steam Tanker [B]nationality [/B]BR [B]built[/B] 1917 - W Gray & Co Ltd, West Hartlepool [B]company[/B] The Admiralty - Royal Fleet Auxiliary [B]voyage[/B] Greenock to Freetown, Sierra Leone [B]convoy[/B] OS-28 [B]cargo[/B] in ballast [B]master[/B] Edward Emile August Le Sage [B]casualties[/B] 3 lost from a complement of 64 [B]attacker[/B] U 159 [B]date[/B] 21.05.1942 [B]time[/B] 0324 [B]f[/B][B]ate[/B] torpedoed [B]square reported [/B]CF7389 [B]position[/B] 36.41N/22.45W [B]Notes[/B] [B]Technical[/B] oiler steam - single screw 2,646 GRT - 2,000 DWT 342'6" x 41'6" x 22'5" U-159 attacked the convoy firing four torpedoes at a group of five steamers. After running times of 1 minute 45 seconds, 1 minute 46 seconds, 1 minute 50 seconds and 1 minute 55 seconds, detonations and a fire column were seen. Three ships were observed to be in sinking condition, one of them burning. One of the ships was hit by one more torpedo from a two torpedo spread. In fact only[I] Montenol[/I] and[I] New Brunswick[/I] were torpedoed in this attack. There is no Allied confirmation of a third ship hit. [I]Montenol [/I]was badly damaged in this attack, she was abandoned and then sunk by gunfire by the corvette HMS[I] Woodruff[/I] (K.53). The Master, 52 crew and 8 gunners were rescued by the sloop HMS[I] Wellington [/I]and landed at Freetown. Three crew were lost. Thanks to Walter Janssens for extra information on this page. Unless otherwise stated, all dates and times are from the German perspective and are given in CET. NEW There is a page to assist with grid squares [URL="http://ubootwaffe.net/quadrant.cgi"][COLOR=#0000ff]here[/COLOR][/URL].

Here is a picture of Nelson taken from ashanti sdent to me by an old Ashanti hand; plus a rather fine drawing of Ashanti, by then the flangship of Adm. Burrough hadnding over the remains of Pedestal to the local forces. If you look back thru my ealry posts you wil find a snap of Adm Burrough still wearing his life belt after jackstay transfer from Nigeria to Ashanti. tim
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Thanks John. I thought I'd seen them all, but that is one British war movie I never did see.

Alec Guiness was a Spitfire Pilot I think he flew a Recce Spit in the movie and well in the end he was a hero

A couple of memory joggers for you Graeme!
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I thought that Alec Guiness looked quite old in that pic so I looked up his age. He was born in 1914 making him 39 in that pic. Looks older.

I saw the title HMS Nelson and the Malta Convoy and I remember while serving on HMS Arethusa I was ship's Bugler and we had permission to use HMS Nelson's silver bugle with her name engraved on it. That was circa 1966. I don't think a bugle was as carefully looked after. The captain R.D. Butt R.N. returned it to the Portsmouth Naval Museum at the end of our Commission...Happy memories......:):)

Yes. The Malta Story. That's the one. I bought my copy when visiting Malta a few years ago. VHS too. Good film in the best Ealing tradition.

[QUOTE=porelhall;2739]I saw the title HMS Nelson and the Malta Convoy and I remember while serving on HMS Arethusa I was ship's Bugler and we had permission to use HMS Nelson's silver bugle with her name engraved on it. That was circa 1966. I don't think a bugle was as carefully looked after. The captain R.D. Butt R.N. returned it to the Portsmouth Naval Museum at the end of our Commission...Happy memories......:):)[/QUOTE] Welcome here old sailor. It is very pleasing to see real types here like yourself. Some of us here aren't from the er, Andrew as Bob puts it. We just have an interest in what was done by others. Enjoy this forum and add your experiences to it. Graeme [far to the south]

back to Pedestal; here is the picture i promised of Adm. Burrough settling into the bridge of HMS Ashanti after transferring his flag from the damaged Nigeria; Ashanti's only damage throughout the entire convoy and retun was a single hit from a .303 bullet to the oerlikon call-up buzzer on the bridge, protected by the ju-ju presented by the Ashanti people just before the war.
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Thanks Tim. I have started a new post off for HMS Nigeria. Would you like to move your post there or leave it here? Whatever mate.

......and not forgetting the mighty Ark Royal's contribution to the relief of Malta with convoy protection.

Tim Interesting post re damage caused by .303 bullet. Was this friendly fire then? Regards...John

Unfortunately there is no one left who can remember! thats the value of these forums, so many memories, not just "significant" events like Pedestal, just all the minutae that real life is made up from. I can tell you that the junkers that crashed onto the deck of the Ohio was almost certainly shot down by Ashanti, at least finished of. Ohio was ahead as the bomber passed over Ashanti at masthead height and recieved all of the concentrated fire they could muster, my father was the gunnery officer, whereuopon it caught fire, vered away and crashed onto Ohio's foredeck. The attached postcard of the painting of the incident, I think was by Hamilton, graphically depicts this. Channel 4 made a superb 60 minute programme of Pedestal (They used the postcard to announce this) in which they interviewed many of the survivors. One of the great episodes of the Pedestal convoy was the rescue of the survivors of the Waimarama be HMS Ledbury. Her skipper, Roger Hill, had been with Ledbury on PQ17 a few months earlier and the forced abandonment of the convoy by the escort and the convoy's subsequent decimation had left a bitter taste with the ships company. When Waimarama was bombed and blew up covering the sea bith blazing fuel Roger Hill reversed the little Ledbury (hunt) into the flames and picked up all he could find in the water. captured again by one of Hamiltons brilliant paintings. The other pic show Col Pace Bonello of Malta representing the Maltese veterans of the Siege of Malta laying a wreath at the dedication ceremony for the Malta Memorial in London on August 15th, 2005, behind him is Amd. Burnell Nugent. All best tim
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I should have added that I have a copy of the Ch.4 programme if anyone might want one run off onto DVD; and that there is a Ledbury Association with still a few survivors left. tim

I found this most absorbing Tim. The pics you added were very good. The second one especially. Seeing the flag flying as if in defiance is stirring stuff.

hi my dad served on the nelson betwen late 30s up untill earley 40s i was looking for a crew list i was wondering if any one knows where i would find one. sorry im new to this:rolleyes:

Welcome to the forum Gordon Hopefully someone will come up with the info you require. In the meantime why don't you tell us a bit more of your dad's service that you already know? Regards....John

Welcome Gordon! I agree, a bit more information would be interesting.

[QUOTE=John Brown;7024]Welcome to the forum Gordon Hopefully someone will come up with the info you require. In the meantime why don't you tell us a bit more of your dad's service that you already know? Regards....John[/QUOTE] all i really know is he was a gunner on board the nelly he recentley passed away he u to tell me about convoys they used to attend i didnt listen much i found some of his navel papers when he passed away and now i wished i listend more he got to a good age 81 i just hope someone rembers him his name was peter walker i would like to learn more regards gordon.

I fear we are all guilty of not listening to our parents then later, when it's too late, to wish we had.

Welcome Gordon - Here is an interesting link to a site about HMS Nelson with a crew list underneath. Your father is not on the list - but they are asking relatives to contact them with any missing names. I think it would be good for you to re-unite him with his shipmates... Give it a read. [URL]http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/ships/nelson.html[/URL]

Hello Tim, The Admiral to the right in the picture at the Malta Siege Memorial at Tower Place in 2005 is Vice Admiral J H McAnally CB LVO the President of the Royal Naval Association who was acting as Master of Ceremony. This memorial was placed on the anniversary of the Pedestal Convoy. Chalky White

Thanks Chalky, getting my Admirals mixed up, nice to see this thread revived as well, far too good to be buried in the pages of history! tim PS. I think it's time you told the full story of the US Volunteers..

I think this could be the right place to pop in this "Obituary" [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/2959716/Norman-Owen.html[/url] Bob.

Very interesting accounts Bob; thanks for putting this up. Ordinary men with extraordinary courage. As it happens Nigel put up a photo of cruise ship Saga Rose yesterday on Terry's Liner Gallery.

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]The visit of HMS Nelson [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]HMS Nelson the newest and greatest Battle ship of the British Navy arrived at Guernsey on Tuesday 16th June 1931, on board was Admiral Sir Michael Hodge K.C.B. C.M.G. C.V.O. C.in C. Atlantic Fleet, she stayed until Tuesday 23rd June there were many sporting and social events organised for the officers and crew and during their stay they joined in the islands celebration of the birthday of King George V,[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Unfortunately the crew suffered a tragedy during the visit with the death of a popular crew mate , po 22341 pte Thomas Edwin Rees Royal Marines ,a 23 year old unmarried Welsh man who was found in the water of St peterport harbour he had marks on his face but the cause of death was uncertain ,[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]He was buried at Fort George Military cemetery on Tuesday the 23rd [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT='Times New Roman']Hundreds of islanders turned out to line the route of the funeral procession, and the flags on all the principle buildings of St Peterport were at half mast the coffin was carried on a gun carriage accompanied a full escort and the royal marine band and a firing party of 12 , upon arrival at Fort George the Funeral party was visible from Nelson[/FONT] [attach]22046[/attach] [attach]22047[/attach]
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hi my partners granddad (Thomas aitchison mackie)or maybe classed as jock mackie served on the nelson , in his travels he was on the fleet of ships heading towards Malta , has anyone got any crew pictures or clear ship pictures of the HMS nelson , if you have it would be much appreciated if you could show them to me , sadly Thomas mackie died last year after goin blind and finding it realy hard to cope with bless him , thank you for your time matthew

Hi there Mathew, Sorry to hear about your granddad. Heres a link to a thread containing lots of pictures of HMS Nelson and her sister Rodney: [url]http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1747&highlight=nelson[/url] The Nelson class is probably one of my favorite battleships of the RN, I just love the layout and the 16" guns. My great grandfather served aboard Nelson aswell. I have a few books if you need any more specific information.

Mathew , Here's a couple of half decent shots of NELSON. Regards Dave
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