HMS Edinburgh 1939-1942 World Naval Ships Forums Archive

Naval History by Country :

ROYAL
NAVY

US
NAVY

GERMAN
NAVY

FRENCH
NAVY

*VIEW ALL OF OUR CURRENT ART SPECIAL OFFERS ON ONE PAGE HERE*
NAVAL ART	AVIATION ART	MILITARY ART	SPORT ART

ALWAYS GREAT OFFERS :

20% FURTHER PRICE REDUCTIONS ON HUNDREDS OF LIMITED EDITION ART PRINTS

BUY ONE GET ONE HALF PRICE ON THOUSANDS OF PAINTINGS AND PRINTS

FOR MORE OFFERS SIGN UP TO OUR FREE NEWSLETTER

HMS Edinburgh 1939-1942 World Naval Ships Forums Archive

HMS Edinburgh 1939-1942

Posts 1 to 42

[B][B]HMS Edinburgh and the loss of Stalin's gold payment[/B] [B]The full story of [/B]HMS Edinburgh's Final Voyage [/B] Edinburgh's final journey was to be escorting the return convoy QP-11 of 17 ships, which left Kola Peninsula on 28 April, as the flagship of Rear-Admiral Stuart Bonham-Carter On 30 April, the German submarine U-456 (under the command of Kapitänleutnant Max-Martin Teichert) fired a torpedo into the starboard side of the cruiser. The ship began to list heavily, but the crew reacted quickly and competently, and closed watertight bulkheads, preventing the ship from sinking immediately. Soon after, Teichert launched a second torpedo, which struck the ship's stern wrecking her steering equipment and effectively crippling her. Taken in tow, she attempted to limp back to Murmansk. Along the way she was hounded constantly by German torpedo-bombers On 2 May, as she progressed at a snail's pace under her own steam, off Bear Island she was attacked by three German destroyers. The Edinburgh opened fireand the cruiser's second salvo straddled the Schoemann and disabled her severely enough that her crew scuttled her. While the small ships with the Edinburgh drove off the attackers, she was torpedoed yet again. The torpedo struck the ship amidships exactly opposite the first torpedo hit from U-456. As the ship was only being prevented from breaking in two by the deck plating and keel, which was likely to fail at any time, the crew abandoned the ship. Fifty-six ratings and two officers had been killed in the attacks. [B]Stalin's gold payment[/B] At the time of Edinburgh's sinking she was carrying a 4.5 ton consignment of gold bullion, which formed part of Stalin's payment for the supplies that the Allies were shipping to the USSR. The 465 gold ingots, carried in ninety-three wooden boxes, were being transported in the armoured bomb-rooms situated on the starboard side of the vessel, not far from the original torpedo's impact point. At the time, the estimated worth of the bullion was somewhere in the region of £1,547,080 sterling. [B] Salvaging The Bullion[/B] In April 1981, the survey ship Dammtor began searching for the wreck in the Barents Sea. After only ten days, they discovered the ship's final resting place at an approximate position of 72°N, 35°E, at a depth of 245 metres (800 feet). Later that year, on 30 August, the dive-support vessel Stephaniturm journeyed to the site, and salvage operations began in earnest. Several divers were injured during the operation, but on 15 September 1981, a diver finally penetrated the bomb room and recovered a bar of gold. On 7 October bad weather finally forced the suspension of diving operations, but by that time, 431 of 465 ingots had been recovered, now worth in excess of £43,000,000 sterling. Britain sure could have used that gold at the end of the war. I have often wondered who at the top wouldn't think of splitting the gold up or even sending a heavy cruiser for it. One would wonder. Note the incredible increase in the gold's value from then to now.
Attachments :

Gold risen? What about food costs? It sticks in my throat that we gave Stalin anything. Still I guess he was the lesser enemy. Very interesting post Sailor. And another example of an under-protected convoy.

I'm a bit low on pics of the Edinburgh! Bob.
Attachments :

I really think 'herakles' comment 'another example of an under-protected convoy' needs some tempering and balance. QP.11 was made up of a total of 13 merchant ships. These ships were escorted by no less than; KUIBYSHEV - Russian destroyer escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 SOKRUSHITELNY - Russian destroyer escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 HMS GOSSAMER - escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 HMS HARRIER - escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 HMS HUSSAR - escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 HMS NIGER - escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 HMS AMAZON - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS BEAGLE - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS BEVERLEY - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS BULLDOG (SOE) - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS CAMPANULA - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS OXLIP - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS SAXIFRAGE - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS SNOWFLAKE - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMT LORD MIDDLETON - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS FORESIGHT - Escorted convoy 28-30 Apr 1943 HMS FORESTER - Escorted convoy 28-30 Apr 1943 HMS EDINBURGH - Joined convoy 30 Apr 1943 and scuttled 2 May 1943 HMS KING GEORGE V - Home Fleet distant cover HMS VICTORIOUS - Home Fleet distant cover HMS KENYA - Home Fleet distant cover HMS BELVOIR - Home Fleet distant cover HMS ESCAPADE - Home Fleet distant cover HMS FAULKNOR - Home Fleet distant cover HMS HURSLEY - Home Fleet distant cover HMS INGLEFIELD - Home Fleet distant cover HMS LAMBERTON - Home Fleet distant cover HMS MARNE - Home Fleet distant cover HMS MARTIN - Home Fleet distant cover HMS MIDDLETON - Home Fleet distant cover HMS ORIBI - Home Fleet distant cover After HMS EDINBURGH was torpedoed by U .456 she was escorted on her return to Murmansk by HMS FORESTER and HMS FORESIGHT and joined by the Russian vessels GREMYASCHI, SOKRUSHITELNY and RUBIN. Meanwhile the Germans had not been sitting around, the destroyers SCHOEMAN, Z24 and Z35 attacked the convoy whilst searching for HMS EDINBURGH and during this action the Russian merchant ship TSIOLKOVSKY was torpedoed and sunk and HMS AMAZON badly damaged. Meanwhile the convoy had also to fight off U-boat and air attacks. The German destroyers then found HMS EDINBURGH and during their attack a further torpedo hit EDINBURGH but she caught SCHOEMAN with a heavy salvo, which sank the German destroyer. HMS EDINBURGH had to be scuttled with a final torpedo from HMS FORESTER, which in turn was heavily damaged by the German destroyers. The convoy reached Reykjavik on 7 May 1943 without further loss. So for a convoy which, it has been suggested was under protected, 12 out of 13 merchant ships were fought through by RN and Soviet surface forces against a concerted effort by German destroyers, submarines and aircraft to stop them. In all 29 RN ships were committed by the Admiralty to the defence of this convoy. Hardly a story of 'example of an under-protected convoy' If we are going to have these narratives can we please make sure they are meaningful. stontamar

In does indeed! So many? :(

Sailors comment about using a light cruiser to carry such a valuable cargo is an interesting one as this did seem to be the vessel of choice for this type of operation. In 1939 and 1940, when Britain most feared a German invasion, the government decided it may have to move to Canada and run the war from there through its colonies. In preparation for this eventuality something like £70 million in gold was transported across the Atlantic to Canada to be used to help fund the war effort from there. The ships selected to carry the gold were the light cruisers HMS Emerald (£60m approx) and HMS Enterprise (£10m approx). Interesting though that Battleships could be spared to transport politicians across the Atlantic.

Maybe not so odd as may initially seem. Cruisers had the range and speed to sail independently across the Atlantic and were pehaps the most suited type of warship for the task transporting the gold reserves to Canada. Why HMS EDINBURGH sailed in conjuction with QP.11 is anyones guess; again a fast independent passage would have seemed the safest option (i.e. as with HMS CAIRO's independent run to Murmansk with the trade delegation as discussed in one of the other recent threads). Conveying Winston Churchill to the United States in a cruiser would have, at least, been an uncomfortable physical experience for the man and a ship of that size would have lacked the necessary accommodation for the Prime Minister, his staff and undoubtedly the masses of uniformed hangers on that would have accompanied the trip. Perhaps more importantly travel by cruiser would not, in those days, have conveyed the same political message or provided as suitable an impression as arriving the United States in one the latest battleships to enter the Fleet. Perhaps more interesting was the fact the Winston Churchill having sailed out to the United Staes decided to fly back to the UK - now that was rather a brave decision. Regards stontamar

There wasa TV film about the operation to recover the gold much of which was filmed aboard Belfast. There are actually a couple of extremely good, well written books about the loss of the Edinburgh and the Trinidad, speaking of cruisers on the Kola run, their fate was quite intertwined. The books are first hand accounts and very well worth finding through secondhand dealers. In the morning i'll post the titles and authors. just not to hand at them moment. Speaking of the gold I recall a story told to me, i think it is in the book by Richard Hill as well, of a subsequent payment in gold by the Soviet Govt which was collected by the cruiser Bellona in late 1945 from Murmansk. My father was gunner officer and responsible for the loading which was done under incredible security at the docks. No one had ever seen gold before so they contrived to drop one of the wooded boxes to check it out! they battled back to Rosyth (??) in the teeth of a gale which blew like fury the entire way (I gave the barograph trace he kept a a souvenir to the director of the Belfast last year). On arrival the gold was loaded into a knackered old railway wagon and left in a siding under invisible security over the weekend before shunting off to London! Another good book on the whole arctic campaign is Richard Woodman's book published in about 1998/8, followed by the Malta convoys book.

"Old railway wagon?" Oh dear. I can't help but see comparisons to the habit of sending vast amounts of money by train on other occasions. Ronald Biggs .. .. .. And on the matter of flying, if my memory doesn't fail me, I think Churchill flew to Lisbon once.

Guys Being a diver myself I got hold of the book "Goldfinder" by Keith Jessop some years ago. It tells the story of Mr Jessops extensive research into the project, the espionage, diplomatic wrangling and final locating and raising of the gold. A very interesting read. AlZ

I have read all the points made about selecting a suitable mode of transport for the gold and stand by my statement that a light cruiser wasn't up to the task under the circumstances. The fact that Edinburgh was sunk and the gold lost in fact bears out my view. As I said, I would have used a heavy cruiser which comes with an attendant destroyer shield. I'd like to add how pleasing it is to see proper forum discussion. Some great additional information there particularly from Stontamar.

for a firsthand and very well written account of the loss of the Edinburgh I reccomend the following book; Last Call for HMS Edinburgh by Frank Pearce, pub in 1982 by Fontana. For a wider appreciation he also wrote Running the Gauntlet, the battles for the Barents Sea which I also highly recomend and The Ship that Torpedoed herself about the loss of the Trinidad. These are by far the best accounts I have read, on a par with Dudley Pope's "73 North". all best tim

Thanks Tim. I have read 73 North some years ago and will source it again at your suggestion. The other books would be much harder to find in Australia, but I will look. Graeme

you won't be disappointed; if you draw a blank let me know and i'll try to help. There were also a lot of books about PQ17 but one of the best first hand accounts is that by Godfrey Wynn who was a journalist aboard one of the escorts, hardly objective in regards to strategy but helps to put you one the spot which 99% of the others do not, they all seek to explain the tradgedy one way or another. All best tim

I just looked through my library books for 73 North and discovered another one I had read and forgotten. War at Sea. The Kola Run by Ian Campbell. I will read them both again.
Attachments :

[QUOTE=stontamar;1939]I really think 'herakles' comment 'another example of an under-protected convoy' needs some tempering and balance. QP.11 was made up of a total of 13 merchant ships. These ships were escorted by no less than; KUIBYSHEV - Russian destroyer escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 SOKRUSHITELNY - Russian destroyer escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 HMS GOSSAMER - escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 HMS HARRIER - escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 HMS HUSSAR - escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 HMS NIGER - escorted convoy 28-29 April 1942 HMS AMAZON - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS BEAGLE - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS BEVERLEY - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS BULLDOG (SOE) - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS CAMPANULA - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS OXLIP - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS SAXIFRAGE - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS SNOWFLAKE - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMT LORD MIDDLETON - Ocean escort 28 Apr-7 May 1943 HMS FORESIGHT - Escorted convoy 28-30 Apr 1943 HMS FORESTER - Escorted convoy 28-30 Apr 1943 HMS EDINBURGH - Joined convoy 30 Apr 1943 and scuttled 2 May 1943 HMS KING GEORGE V - Home Fleet distant cover HMS VICTORIOUS - Home Fleet distant cover HMS KENYA - Home Fleet distant cover HMS BELVOIR - Home Fleet distant cover HMS ESCAPADE - Home Fleet distant cover HMS FAULKNOR - Home Fleet distant cover HMS HURSLEY - Home Fleet distant cover HMS INGLEFIELD - Home Fleet distant cover HMS LAMBERTON - Home Fleet distant cover HMS MARNE - Home Fleet distant cover HMS MARTIN - Home Fleet distant cover HMS MIDDLETON - Home Fleet distant cover HMS ORIBI - Home Fleet distant cover After HMS EDINBURGH was torpedoed by U .456 she was escorted on her return to Murmansk by HMS FORESTER and HMS FORESIGHT and joined by the Russian vessels GREMYASCHI, SOKRUSHITELNY and RUBIN. Meanwhile the Germans had not been sitting around, the destroyers SCHOEMAN, Z24 and Z35 attacked the convoy whilst searching for HMS EDINBURGH and during this action the Russian merchant ship TSIOLKOVSKY was torpedoed and sunk and HMS AMAZON badly damaged. Meanwhile the convoy had also to fight off U-boat and air attacks. The German destroyers then found HMS EDINBURGH and during their attack a further torpedo hit EDINBURGH but she caught SCHOEMAN with a heavy salvo, which sank the German destroyer. HMS EDINBURGH had to be scuttled with a final torpedo from HMS FORESTER, which in turn was heavily damaged by the German destroyers. The convoy reached Reykjavik on 7 May 1943 without further loss. So for a convoy which, it has been suggested was under protected, 12 out of 13 merchant ships were fought through by RN and Soviet surface forces against a concerted effort by German destroyers, submarines and aircraft to stop them. In all 29 RN ships were committed by the Admiralty to the defence of this convoy. Hardly a story of 'example of an under-protected convoy' If we are going to have these narratives can we please make sure they are meaningful. stontamar[/QUOTE] Do you have any prior history on HMS Amazon -my father served on her as an Electrical or radar officer seconded from the RCN. He was on board from Aug.42 to March '43 so just prior to this convoy. Many thanks for help Hume Waring

Returning the the Edinburgh story; I would hardly call her a light cruiser, apart from the Counties I din't recall any heavier than the Southamptons (or modified Southamptons). The last moments of Edinburgh were remarkably heroic. torpedoed and bereft of almost all electrical power, steam on one shaft only they were determined to not give up surrounded by so many hostile forces. So they steamed slowly in a circle as the guns (think it as A) came to bear on the Schoeman (A Narvick with 5.9 inch guns herself) the fired a full salvo which by a miracle struck the Schoeman full on reducing her to a total loss in a single blast. tim

Another excellent book with regards the salvage of the gold from HMS Edinburgh (besides Keith Jessup’s Goldfinder) is The Salvage of the Century by Ric Wharton. However, as much as I admire the technicalities of the salvage I find it rather incongruous that the British Govt has since banned simple scuba diving outright on some (about a dozen) HM shipwrecks, and restricted diving on some others, all where sailors lost their lives hence are considered war graves, yet had no qualms about letting a salvage company literally tear the guts out of Edinburgh (a war grave where 57 sailors lost their lives) to get at the gold so it would get its share. Yes, it [U]was[/U] a lot of gold but……………………. It seems that when $$$$ came into the equation that the desecration of a war grave was not that important to the Govt after all. Smacks of double standards if you ask me! Kevin

Hi All, Came across this photo of HMS Edinburgh wearing what appears to be the buff and white of the pre war Far East Station. Does anyone know of her wearing this color scheme and when it was. Any other photos out there. Cheers Spruso
Attachments :

I can't help you there Spruso. I see that it is taken from pehaps a book. Is it just a poor print? Here are a couple more pictures for you to peruse. Bob.
Attachments :

Yes- a poor print from a book on the life of Admiral Gatacre RAN. Found the service history of Edinburgh and Belfast on www. navy history.net and can't see why either would have been painted up in the far east colors but obviously one of them was. I think the photo was probably from Adm.Gatacres private collection. Cheers Speuso

something tells me that the Med fleet also wore white paint pre-war?? tim

Here's another pic of her in, what appears to be, two-tone white and buff. Rik
Attachments :

So, what colours did they have for the Battle of Matapan?

Battle of 'Matalan' ? Probably a chique shade of pink with a smattering of brown - This years Black !! (all at a very reasonable price !!) :):D:o:eek:

Hmmmmm. Not exactly the answer I was hoping for!! :rolleyes:

by that time all was shades of grey or camo.

[quote=tim lewin;8990]by that time all was shades of grey or camo.[/quote] So, that's that. Thanks for the information.

Nothing to do with the Edinburgh but here is the Birmingham sporting her China station colours. Bob.
Attachments :

The Med fleet certainly wore white between the wars and a captain who dirtied the paintwork or dulled the brass by practice firing his guns would be marked down in the Admiral's estimation.

I have placed Edinburgh's losses in the "Crew Losses" Thread Dave

Hi Kevin. I totally agree with you.She is a War Grave,but because of the gold,a double standard was applied.Web sites are now not even allowed to put up pictures of Ships sunk around the UK where loss of life occurred.But at one time a few years ago you could google a wreck site and find tons of pictures.I don't see what harm external photography of a wreck can do,as long as it's carried out with respect...Many Regards Steve.

A little more about the puzzle of Edinburgh's damage as found in the gold recovery activity; it was not as expected from the narrative reports! © Crown Copyright/MoD (1996). [SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"]THE SINKING OF HMS 'EDINBURGH'[/COLOR] [COLOR="red"]AN UNSOLVED MYSTERY[/COLOR][/SIZE] BY EUR ING David K. BROWN, RCNC [U]Design[/U] The Edinburgh and her sister, Belfast, were designed under the 1936 programme. They were originally intended to be enlarged versions of the successful SOUTHAMPTON class, mounting four quadruple 6 inch turrets. The development of this turret proved more difficult than anticipated and the design was modified to take four of the new, long stalk triples. The design displacement was 9989 tons, standard, declared under the naval limitation treaty as 10,000 tons. By the time they were completing, war was imminent and some changes were made, bring the displacement measured during the inclining of Edinburgh (FIG. 1) in May 1939 to 10,550 tons (ref 1). [ATTACH]122367[/ATTACH] The design team was experienced and capable, led initially by S.E. BOYLAND, followed by C.S. LILLICRAP with E.G. KENNET as the constructor, assisted by J.L. BESSANT and M.C. DUNSTAN. [U]Particulars[/U] Displacement ………..9989 tons. Length X beam X mean draught…. 613.5 X 66.0 X 17.25. Power…………………… 80,000shp (32.5 knots at standard displacement) The bending moments on an L/20 wave were 268,510 tons ft hogging and 268,970 tons ft sagging, giving nominal stresses of between 5.5 and 7.5 tons/ inch. (ref 2) [U]Problems[/U] Hard steaming in the first winter of the war revealed a structural weakness in these two ships and the generally similar SOUTHAMPTONS. (ref 3) The forecastle deck ended amidships leading to a stress concentration made worse by a step in the level of the deck armour nearby which led to cracks, torn rivets and leaks. The Belfast when mined broke her back at this point. (Ref 4) Edinburgh (and others) was stiffened and the forecastle deck extended a little further aft to the athwartships catapult (See FIG. 1). This weakness may have been significant. [U]Narrative of the sinking[/U] On 25 April 1942 Edinburgh loaded 93 boxes of gold at Murmansk, each box containing 4-281b bars, with a total value in 1942 of £2M, (Ref 5) (£45M in 1981) and sailed on 28 April with convoy QPll under CAPTAIN FAULKNER. She was steaming at 19 knots when detected by U456 (KAPITAN LIEUTENANT Max TEICHERT) a t 1120 on 30 April, some 250 miles from Murmansk. A submarine was reported by ASDIC at 1555 but the Command decided it was a false echo. At 1618 the submarine fired 3 torpedoes (Ref 6) at 1000m, point of aim the fore-funnel. Running time indicated 1200m and there were 2 hits. The first hit amidships on the starboard side by the forward boiler room, below the stokers (Ref 7) mess, killing all in the area with a hole said to be 50ft long (visible on the video); many men fell through the deck into the oil tank while the second hit right aft. The latter hit caused the ship to whip severely and several survivors report being thrown off their feet. The stern was blown off and the steering gear wrecked. Y turret was severely damaged. The quarter deck was wrapped round both after 6in turrets and 63ft of the stern was hanging down. The rudder and two shafts were lost. It was said that only B turret could be worked, which suggests whipping damage by A, but other statements suggest that A turret was still usable. By 1730 she began to steam back to Murmansk and made about 60 miles in 36 hours, shadowed by U456. Forester got a tow line aboard, later moving astern to steer. Forester having sighted a U boat on the surface, which had then dived, engaged and dropped 2 depth charges which damaged U456's periscope. Destroyers were sighted and engaged by A and B turrets (Hermann Schoemann, 224 and 225). Foresight and Forester were also in the action while a Soviet patrol vessel (tug), Rubin, with Harrier; Niger; Gossamer and Hussar were in company. By 0530 on 2 May the two F class destroyers were on the beam and the three minesweepers behind. Snow showers reduced visibility to between 2 and 8 miles (varying). Hussar had sighted the Germans ca 0600. Schoemann was soon sunk by Edinburgh (again PEARCE says only B turret firing under local control) but the German destroyers had fired 15 torpedoes and scored one hit on the port side amidships, close to the bomb room at about 0700, which almost cut her in two and caused her to list 17" to port. There was some further whipping, the turret officer was thrown out of B turret. Both British destroyers were temporarily disabled. About 800 men out of a crew of 850 were then taken off Edinburgh. Harrier fired 20 rounds Semi Armour Piercing shells to hasten her sinking and dropped two patterns of depth charges, but to no avail. Edinburgh was then torpedoed by Foresight. She sank stern first in about 800ft at 72" 05N, 35" 02E. (PEARCE says 71" 51N, 35" 10E and that the fore part broke away, clearly it didn't but was this the superstructure coming off? He continues by saying that stem rose in the air.) [U]Discovery, the video evidence[/U] In preparation for the salvage of the gold in 1981 a video was taken of the wreck which revealed a number of surprising features. In particular, virtually the whole of the superstructure, masts and funnels had gone, separated neatly, as with a knife. The ship lies on her port side in 220 metres. (This is actually the operating depth of the remote operating vehicle (ROV); the sea bed is lower by about the beam of the ship). The video is taken from an ROV moving along the starboard side, initially at 2 deck level. The picture starts at the support to the aftermost twin 4in on the starboard side (S4). The support is in good condition, slightly fouled. The camera pans on to the 32 ft motor cutter which is in good condition. It is on its chocks-more or less. There is a nick out of the top strake immediately abaft the stem. (It is not impossible that the cutter moved forward on impact, hit something causing the nick and bounced back but, even should this be so, any impact was gentle.) After noting the support to S2, the torpedo tubes are visible. As far as can be determined, these have not moved on their roller path. (Torpedo tubes are easily dislodged-a few by seas only). There is a clear shot of the under side of the deck over the tubes; intact, no fouling or corrosion. The guard rails to 2 deck, forward of S 1 support are sound. The picture moves up to 1 deck by the catapult (Note: Fo'csle deck extended aft after damage to Belfast.) The catapult seems undamaged. Moving forward, everything above 1 deck is gone (FIG. 2). The commentary on the video suggests that it could be that the boundary rivets sheared on impact or that air trapped in the hangar led to implosion. (See later discussion.) The commentator also says that there was no sign of explosive charges from a pirate salvage operation. The camera travels slowly along the 1 deck/ side intersection and there is no sign of any superstructure nor guard rails until the very forward end of the bridge where there is a little something crumpled. (I have studied this several times without making anything of it.) At the after end of this area there is a trawl board. Near the bridge front there is a large hawser, probably the tow rope. B turret is there, intact and trained about Green 45. A turret is also intact, similarly trained. (While it could be coincidence, the similar training does suggest that A turret was working.) The guard rails in this area are crumpled. Just forward of A turret, abaft a conspicuous fairlead, the sheer strake is cracked. The crack is straight and vertical and is probably a seam (the fore end was probably welded), but picture quality is not good enough to confirm this. The commentary suggests bottom impact; I suspect it is whipping from the hit right aft which several survivors refer to. (I would have expected whipping damage more at 1/4 length though; perhaps it was a poor weld). This part of the video concludes with inspection of the torpedo damage close to the bomb room, forward end of the bilge keel. At least one armour plate has fallen off. Note: My somewhat unreliable memory is that there was a bit more on the original video which I saw in 1981. I thought the aft shelter deck showed both funnels and the after mast gone; in the current version this is not seen. (A model made by the salvage team is held by Jon WENZEL, Curator of HMS Belfast, and this shows the after funnel and mast detached but alongside.) [U]Risk numerals[/U] The technical assessors to Lord DONALDSON'S inquiry into the Derbyshire used risk numerals to compare the various scenarios of the sinking of that ship. In the following sections, a similar approach will be tried for the Edinburgh. Pi is the notational probability of the event occurring, rated as follows: Very low probability <5% = l LOW 5-10 = 2 Medium 10-25 = 3 High 25-50 = 4 Very High > 50 = 5 Sc is the rating of the seriousness of the consequences on a scale of 1-5. It will be noted that both Pi and Sc are subjective ratings but serve to concentrate the mind. The risk numeral, Rn, is the product of Pi and Sc. The following section considers various scenarios which have been suggested to explain the observed state of the wreck and ascribes values to Rn. [U]Damage scenarios[/U] [U]Impact[/U] The ship sank stern first and the impact with the bottom was sufficient to shear the rivets in the boundary angles holding the superstructure. The fact that the cutter is in its chocks and the torpedo tubes are on their roller path makes this almost impossible. Pi = 1. If it did occur, the consequences would be as observed. [U]Water Pressure[/U] As the ship sank, stern first, water pressure would act on the after side of the superstructure and the force could have been sufficient to push the superstructure away, particularly if the rivets had already been weakened. Though Pi is high, it would seem that Sc, the consequences, would be low. [U]Pirates[/U] A criminal attempt to salvage the gold led to them blowing the wreck apart-'Bash and Grab'. The salvage operation was taken to forestall any such attempt and the wreckage was examined carefully for signs of any previous attempt. No such evidence was found and it is unlikely that any such attempt would remove the superstructure so tidily. Pi and Sc both low. [U]Corrosion[/U] Either the superstructure or the connecting rivets corroded, removing the superstructure while on the bottom. Whilst this cannot be ruled out, it seems unlikely to occur and even less likely to lead to the observed state. [U]Implosion[/U] In other wrecks which have been studied (Titanic and Derbyshire) there is clear evidence that air filled spaces have imploded at depth. Much of the forward superstructure of Edinburgh was occupied by hangars and photos of her sinking clearly show that the hangar doors were open making implosion of that area impossible. [ATTACH]122368[/ATTACH] [U]Trawl Ropes[/U] Trawl ropes could have cut the superstructure away. A trawl rope is clearly seen in the video, trawling was common in the area but the probability of a rope cutting away a strong superstructure, neatly, over a considerable extent seems remote. In particular, the intact B turret stands high above the level at which the superstructure is severed. The loss of the trawler Gaul is still seen as a mystery and it has even been suggested that her loss was due to snagging her trawl round the Edinburgh. Gaul was last heard of in 72" 15N, 25" 51E. This is rather west of Edinburgh (72" 05N, 35" 02E)- and Gaul's exact location is uncertain anyway. The coincidence of their position cannot be ignored but it is unlikely to be significant. [U]Whipping[/U] When a torpedo hit right aft she is known to have whipped violently. In a 2 node flexure, the bridge would have been at a node with maximum shearing force. Perhaps many rivets in the superstructure boundary angle broke? There are problems; when Belfast was mined she flexed far more violently and there is no mention of the superstructure falling off. The bridge was set back from the side giving shear lag and was far from the neutral axis. However, this is the only 'explanation' so far which is not completely impossible. [U]Risk numerals for these scenarios[/U] [ATTACH]122369[/ATTACH] None of the values of risk numeral are high enough to be convincing. There remains the possibility of a double cause, rivets weakened by corrosion failed under impact or when snagged by a trawl rope. Whipping remains the least improbable explanation but the fact that many ships-particularly her sister Belfast-whipped far more severely without reported damage to superstructure attachment. Rivets weakened by whipping and failing under the dynamic pressure as she sank cannot be ruled out. It is tempting to suggest that PEARCE'S story of the bow separating as she sank was a muddled interpretation of the superstructure falling off but the evidence is weak. [B][U]All possible explanations are impossible[/U][/B] My thanks are due to David KEOUGH, Chief Salvage Officer, MOD for considerable help and advice-he was present at the gold salvage. References 1. A. RAVEN & J. ROBERTS: 'British Cruisers of World War II'; London 1980. 2. D.K. BROWN (Editor): 'The Design and Construction of British Warships, Vol l '; London 1995. 3. A. HAGUE: 'World War II Mysteries'; Warships Supplement, Kendal 1986. (See reply in Warships Supplement 87, based on Sir Stanley GOODALL'S diaries). 4. D.K. BROWN:'T he Mining of HMS Belfast'; Warship Supplement 87, Kendal 1986. 5. F. PEARCE: 'Last call for HMS Edinburgh'; Collins 1982. Says £5M 6. PEARCE says 2, the only ones remaining.
Attachments :

Andy: This is a fascinating account. Brian

fascinating indeed and adds a great deal to the how why and what was done to Belfast in her reconstruction post-mining, i shall regard these stress areas differently next time i visit (cross your fingers but our current plan is to persuade a generous sponsor to pay for repainting) tim

[QUOTE=The Sailor;1965]I have read all the points made about selecting a suitable mode of transport for the gold and stand by my statement that a light cruiser wasn't up to the task under the circumstances. The fact that Edinburgh was sunk and the gold lost in fact bears out my view. As I said, I would have used a heavy cruiser which comes with an attendant destroyer shield. I'd like to add how pleasing it is to see proper forum discussion. Some great additional information there particularly from Stontamar.[/QUOTE] HMS Belfast along with Edinburgh were the largest cruisers operated by Britian during WW II as they were around13,000 to 14,000 tons. (And arguably most powerful) Their internal subdivision would have been better than a County. She was definately up to the task. As far as I know no cruiser in WW II survived being hit by 3 torpedoes from the Japanese Takaos to the British "C" class. That said you are right that she should have been better protected. The destroyer screen should have been on the look out and not as lax as they were. Ignoring sound contacts can be fatal as in this case. I should atleast been checked out more. (Weee hindsight) The sinking should problably not have happened. Also hi guys I'm new here. :)

The Isle of Man post office is asking for help to deliver a mystery letter addressed to a survivor from HMS Edinburgh. Maybe someone can shed some light or help these guys. [URL="http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/help-post-office-deliver-a-mystery-letter-1-6137245"]http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/help-post-office-deliver-a-mystery-letter-1-6137245[/URL]

[QUOTE]The destroyer screen should have been on the look out and not as lax as they were.[/QUOTE]You should read up on the timeline of the action esp. with respect to the screen - or lack of it.

Two views of HMS [I]Edinburgh[/I] after [I]U-456's[/I] second torpedo had blown her stern off. The minesweeper alongside is, if memory serves, HMS [I]Hussar[/I]
Attachments :

A Box from the Deep Back in 1982 there was enormous interest in the salvage of the gold from HMS Edinburgh. I remember it vividly as I later met one of the divers involved. The deepest manned salvage operation to date. Last weekend I had the pleasure of holding one of the bullion boxes recovered from the ship that originally held 5 bars of gold weighing about 63 kgs, currently worth nearly 2 million.
Attachments :

Wow, [I]very [/I]cool artifact! (Although somehow I [I]don't[/I] think that is the rope it was [I]originally [/I]encircled with. :) ) Funny though how money won out over any 'war grave' concerns when it came right down to it. (And no, I [I]do not think[/I] they should have left the gold there by any means, just saying is all.) Like I have said elsewhere, the Government's (any Government's) favourite phrase is "[I]Don't do as I do, do as I say[/I]", :eek: especially so when it comes to naval shipwrecks.

[QUOTE=Glowworm;10094801]Two views of HMS [I]Edinburgh[/I] after [I]U-456's[/I] second torpedo had blown her stern off. The minesweeper alongside is, if memory serves, HMS [I]Hussar[/I][/QUOTE] According to navalhistory.net it was the minesweepers [B]Harrier[/B] and [B]Gossamer[/B] which rescued her ship's company, although [B]Hussar[/B] was also on scene.

Everything we obtain for this site is shown on the site, we do not have any more photos, crew lists or further information on any of the ships.

COPYRIGHT NOTICE. ALL IMAGES DISPLAYED ON THIS WEBSITE ARE PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT LAW, AND ARE OWNED BY CRANSTON FINE ARTS OR THEIR RESPECTIVE OWNERS. NO REPRODUCTION OR COPYING ALLOWED ON OTHER WEBSITES, BOOKS OR ARTICLES WITHOUT PRIOR AGREEMENT.

Contact Details
Shipping Info
Terms and Conditions
Cookie Policy
Privacy Policy

Sign Up To Our Newsletter!

Stay up to date with all our latest offers, deals and events as well as new releases and exclusive subscriber content!

This website is owned by Cranston Fine Arts. Torwood House, Torwoodhill Road, Rhu, Helensburgh, Scotland, G848LE

Contact: Tel: (+44) (0) 1436 820269. Email: cranstonorders -at- outlook.com

Return to Home Page