HMS Renown and Repulse VS. Prinz Eugen World Naval Ships Forums Archive

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HMS Renown and Repulse VS. Prinz Eugen World Naval Ships Forums Archive

HMS Renown and Repulse VS. Prinz Eugen

Posts 1 to 50

Guys, If Renown and Repulse went up against PE, could they handle her, and get a tow line on her to keep her from helping her brother Bismarck in his last fight against KGV, Rondey, Norfolk and Dorsetshire? I guess what i was trying to ask is could they hold on to her with the towlines til, bismarck got sank, then when KGV and Rondey, when back to scapa flow, the four of them take her back with them, but if they able to get a prize crew on board, they dont have to two her, but say in a net around her, so she can run for freedom, that what i ment ok.. What i mean by getting in a net around her with KGV, Rodney,behind her and Renown, her sister on each side of PE! if she gets in to a wiggle and squimming mood, how do they handle her or is she dogmeat? Nikki

Either Renown or Repulse could squish PE like a grape. There are no tow lines, so forget about it. No nets either.

Rich, why is it your the first to say something. Look, im taking as far as i can, and there nothing you can do about it:P SO THERE.. Like i told Terry: You have to wonder if she and her sister can hold on her and keep her from getting near and protecting her brother Bismarck, that all im saying ok! But PE was a cruiser wasnt going to take No, for an answer ok.. Nikki

Cruisers don't take answers at all, but they sink when they fill with water. Just look at Blucher. PE was no more special than Blucher.

Richard: bite me! Why is it i have more faith in her! I just dont went to admit i might be rightabout her, sorry! Nikkki

Ok, Richard we all know the cold hard facts about the event's that took place on that faithful morning when the Bismark met her fate. People have alway's wondered the possibilities if the event's of that day were slightly different in it's outcome. In this light, I do not see in any harm in exploring the possibilities as long as they are set in a real world context of what could have happened and what was out of the question. Regards Charles

I agree. Is there any question about any of these? Renown and Repulse are each vastly superior to PE. There is no chance of this towing. There is no chance of this netting.

Richard, Like i said in real world context. Regards Charles

Have to agree with Charles and Richard here Nikiki, while conjecture may be entertaining, one can't (or shouldn't) stray to far from a realistic base, and while a tow may be in the realm of conjecture, I suppose, a 'net around her' is just pure fantasy.;) K

Richard, NAN NAN NAN. Sorry just being a smartbutt, i know. But if your mad at me. I didnt mean get you mad at me! But if they could keep her away From Bismarck. she helpless to protcet Him and all that! YA helmuth is going to be Heart-broken, but Guther told him to stay in the Atlantic shipping lanes and prowl and sink ships, and Hel Didnt Do it, so he would have powerles to save his best Friend Ernst Lindermann, unless she could wiggle free after Bismarck went down and pick survivors are bis was sank, right. Now from what i read They through signals were about to say good-bye to eachother, right? NIKKI

I never get mad at you. You're right, there was nothing PE could do for Bismarck. Cold hard facts, like Charles said.

Guys Unless she could wiggle free after Bismarck went down and pick survivors from bismarck, right. would they let her, and repulse and Renown and Dorsethire and the Destroyer, Maori can stay with her, that way if she trys to run, they can take her to scapa flow, Did Ernst survive til Bismarck actully sank, and was her in the water with the rest of the survivors or dont we really know? Nikki

Prinz Eugen would not have gone back that is for sure. One reason would be her poor fuel reserves, as it was she struggled in this department. Had she gone back, she would have received hits as Bismarck did, so she would have gone down, or if her guns were knocked out, she would have been scuttled by her crew. There is no possible way the Germans, as would the British, ever let their warships fall into enemy hands on the open sea. The question Nikki raises here around the Bismarck suvivors, was there a real U-boat sighting which led the British ships to depart the scene? There were still hundreds in the water that could have been saved. I'm only asking as someone once suggested to me that a comment was made to just pick up a few samples, of course i have never read anything to cofirm these comments. BS

Guys, All im saying, is if she was So she cant help Bismarck HAve Repulse and her sister, Either, Corner her or keep her back some how, then with Bsmarck is sank, let her go in and get the remaining survivors.. NIKKI

If PE arrives when British forces are there, she'll likely be sunk. There's nothing the RN liked better than having a commerce raider to sink. She can't outrun the air attacks. The "sample" matter relates to Scharnhorst's sinking, not Bismarck's. The submarine scare was genuine, though the submarine itself was imaginary.

R.W. I am impressed. Now that you've become older and wiser and less sarcasmatic in your responses to the lesser grapes on the vine, teaching may well have been your true calling after all. Other than that 'ol' antagonist', ride Montana cowboy ride. Monty, who has never liked your attitude but, who has always respected your intellect. (Mussolini's Triremes).

BC, thank you some one backing me up :). ive been saying this all along and im going to keep saying it, Just Corner her "DONT SINK HER". NIKKI

Nikki do you believe thet even cornered they would have surrendered? After all Bismark was also cornered and did not surrender. I do not think any German captain of a warship at that time would have given up and allowed themselves to be taken into captivity without a fight. So she would have had to fight and if she did she would have lost and been sunk.

Nikki, You will need to read my post again. For further advice, I think you'd do well to study more on naval related matters to obtain a better feel on how things were and were not done in 20th century naval warfare. Only then will you be able to gain a truer perspective of the basics of naval warfare and more respect from the forum members. ;) In your scenario the Renowns would have pulverized her and saved themselves the trouble and high risks of hauling her to Scapa Flow, tow rope or no two rope. U-boats where everywhere and absolutely thrived on slow moving targets such as wreckers (tow trucks). For lack of spares and ammo, PE would have been of little or no value to the RN and, as already been pointed out to you, the RN would not have even contemplated the possibility of capturing her on the high seas. Admiral Lutjens effectively saved your beloved Prinz Eugen from certain destruction when he ordered her to go her own way. Monty

have you guys, miss any of this. ITS A WHAT IF.. Quick picking on me:(.. IM still learning NIKKI

Hey Nikki I'm not picking on you I am anwering your questions and asking you questions to get you to think about the situations. I do however agree that you need to do some reading about the subject and not rely on what is on Wiki which is very brief and usually not 100% accurate. Most people here on this forum increase their knowledge by reading about the subject in respected books and you, if you truly are interested, should put in the effort to learn by doing some reading yourself. I am sure that you must have a lending library somewhere near you. Once you get a feel for the war, why it started and what happened then you may begin to understand some of the descisions these people made. Also a little reading about the military and the requirements of duty and honour may help as I get the impression that you have never served yourself. I'm sure that if you do this you will understand more and the people will appreciate that you are making an effort to learn and help you more.

Wow, Monty, was that meant to be as rude as it came out?

Sorry, i was trying to come across as a butthead ok.. and if it sounded that way i didnt mean it.. I had a farther in the coast Guard, and a brother who was in the army and a consin, who was in the navy, but on a carrier! NIKKI

Nikki, No one is picking on you. We realize it's a "what if" and we are well aware you are still learning. Actually I view you as an apprentice in the trade. If you want to be taught by field staff, you'll have to put up with the crap. If you want to minimize the the crap, there's a certain amount of work you'll have to do on your on - study first son. Monty

Nikki you are in an ideal place for learning about military history from what i can see. You are close to Arlington, Bull Run, Manassas, Antietam and are also close to Annapolis you lucky girl. Please try to help us help you by doing your bit and studying. Oh and don't put yourself down, there are always enough people around who will do that and they are not right.

Kev, i dont know if Annapolis, is open to the pubic> NIKKI

From what I can see on their web sites they do a tour and have a Museum, I would bet it is very interesting.

[QUOTE]Wow, Monty, was that meant to be as rude as it came out?[/QUOTE] Aw c'mon R.W., Newfies aren't rude. Just dwell positively on the four key words of my previous post - "your attitude, respected & intellect". "Antagonist" and "Triremes" are just throwbacks to our first encounters on Johnny Asmussen's original 'Bismarck' forum - remember? I think we've both come a long way since then. Drop over for a coffee or whatever or etc, etc etc. Monty

Nikki, here are some links which refer to a book i have at home. If you read a little German it would be one of the best reads for you as it is written by one of her Artillery officers. What i think the guys here like about the reading & research game is working out the myths and facts about ships or battles, and do so by filling their heads with accounts from primary sources from men on the spot. So this is a good one for PE, as he covers her whole carreer. It is the best way to lift your knowledge on a subject and i truley think you have the desire to do so, as i can understand your passion for a subject. My passion is as my user name suggets, as my grandfather served on British submarines in Russia in WW1. You start with a few good books, then it goes deeper and you get ship logs, diaries of the men, patrol reports, get the opposite sides documents, and before long you can start taking apart the myths that have been written by others. I find the truth in this way will be far more satisfying for you as you knowledge grows in PE, and i think all would agree you have the passion. Hope this helps, BS. [url]http://www.amazon.de/Kreuzer-Prinz-Eugen-Flaggen-Sonderausgabe/dp/3782208234[/url] Schmallenbach, Paul, "Kreuzer Prinz Eugen unter 3 flaggen" Koehler Verlag, 1978. The official history of Prinz Eugen, written by the 1st Artillery Officer ... [url]http://www.prinzeugen.com/PGplans.htm[/url]

OK, guys.. Not on this thread, i start this as a what if, that all.. But any I know the changes of herr being Capturned was silm to none if that, but if it was the only way to save her and the crew, would Helmuth do it. Nikki

Nikki I think you are holding your own very well from what I can read!!

Hey BALTICSUBS, the book Paul did on PE is in German.. So that no help, i dont know if that did the book in English, yet? if any one know.. Nikki

Nikki, Richard and I are old friends from a long way back and long before this forum. Please understand it has nothing to do with you. Monty

OK, sorry if i got snappy. Any way back to the topic, so KC dose lock it, If hel got on sence as KGV

Hi Nikki, not sure if thee is one in English, but there is some software you can buy so as you can scan the page in German and it goes into a WORD format, then you can translate it. You need these types to tools for research. There would be no point in PE going back for survivors, with her position most would be gone to exposure anyway, and many would have had wounds. One U-boat did pick up some survivors and they had a better chance of doing this task for the few that would be left. BS

Guys, here what get me, the u-boat who come on sence, had no torpedos, and why did he just do an open signal for moari and dorsetshire to stay and get as many as they could, out of a crew of over 2,000+ only 115 made it.. if pe had start for brest sooner she could have pick up- as many survivors as she could before going to brest! Nikki

Nikki: there was a case later on in the war where a U-boat did try to pick up survivors, so many in fact that she could not submerge, with people all over her decks and the interior full to the limit. Now, I recall the incident, but honestly I am fuzzy in memory about what was so special about this particular group of survivors. They were not Germans, possibly Italians, but my best shot at memory here says they were former British POW's freed from captivity in North Africa and on return to England when the U-boat sank their ship. Whatever the case, and despite an open signal being sent from U-boat command / Donitz to the English informing them of what the U-boat was trying to accomplish, it was nevertheless attacked by British aircraft. Donitz came under post war scrutiny and charges for thereafter issuing orders that no U-boats were to attempt rescue of survivors. Back to Bismarck, there was no U-boat nearby, as best can be determined, at the hour of her sinking, so whatever was spotted as a possible U-boat (some accounts say it was probably a whale spouting) was a mistake by the British, but one which safety considerations mandated that their surface ships must immediately resume motion and leave the area. A good Captain of Dorsetshire or any other warship, could do no less, as his first consideration must be for the safety of his crew. So, based on later events, an open signal would not have worked, and I doubt seriously that it would have been tried, even had a U-boat without torpedoes been present. It was the real world of warfare. Not nice, not pretty, not altruistic, where what ifs were replaced with cold hard facts and the realities of the war. And most often, it was not a very nice world for survivors floating around in the ice cold Atlantic ocean. What was the old song, about the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald? Where the waves turn the minutes to hours / by Gordon Lightfoot. About a merchant ship sunk in the very cold waters of Lake Ontario in November of 1975. The poor survivors of the Bismarck were in the same situation. The icy cold killed all that were left behind, not a nice death. And every minute they survived in that cold water must have seemed like hours to them. Again, the real world. Not nice, not pleasant, but certainly modern warfare, at it's cruelest.

guys, I know I've been stuborn about aher and im sorry ok.. But I just feel like know given her a fair shot ok.. what are the possibilities, as far as this hole idea with Renown and Repulse? I know you guys come up with the down sides to the idea of try to capture her in that last fight, but what about trying to nab her in the north sea she was making a run for home in 1942? NIKK

Nikki, I am 100% sure the Germans would sink Prinz Eugen themselves before they would allow her to be captured. Warships usually didn't "nab" other warships in World War II. True, the RN and the USN did capture a small number of U-Boats but that was only because they were able to get aboard before the U-Boat sank and were quick enough to undo the German crew's scuttling attempts. Monty

When one considers that the RN couldn't even prevent the former High Seas Fleet from being scuttled while under British guns at Scapa Flow and the German vessels had only skeleton crews, it seems highly unlikely that a German capital ship would have been captured intact when fully crewed with scuttling charges and sea-cocks ready to hand.

Guys, what are the possibilities, as far as this hole idea with Renown and Repulse? I know you guys come up with the down sides to capturing her. Are there any good-sides to capturing her, other then her crew live and hel also live.. and the ship even if she not manned, she's safe, and that what Hel would went right? Nikki

Hi Armiger, hash but true your comments, [B]When one considers that the RN couldn't even prevent the former High Seas Fleet from being scuttled while under British guns at Scapa Flow and the German vessels had only skeleton crews, it seems highly unlikely that a German capital ship would have been captured intact when fully crewed with scuttling charges and sea-cocks ready to hand.[/B] How they even ended up at Scapa Flow is a head scratcher, weren't they supposed to go to a neutral port? The excuse was there was no neutral port available, but didn't the Norwegians offer their ports for the High Seas Fleet? Nikki, i think Monty summed up your question well. PE would have been sunk one way or the other, she would never have been ordered back for the sake of being lost as well as Bismarck. She had already been sent off for the continuation of what Hitler knew was the most important part of the whole operation, and that was to remain undetected and sink merchant ships. Her class of Heavy cruisers were totally unsuited for the roll in which she was asked to play, and mainly due to poor fuel capacity, ie, range. Renown and Repulse together, well this would been the type of battle that suited them perfectly, she would have been struck down pretty quickly if we are playing out the war game fiction role here. There is just no possible way she would have been captured, and the same would go for a British ship. You could have the same argument with Bismarck, and the result would be the same, guns knocked out, sink or scuttle, and certainly no surrender. That is exactly what would happen, and exactly why she would not go back. BS

Sorry Nikki I am totally with Monty in that in reality I am 100% sure the Germans would have sunk Prinz Eugen themselves, before they would allow her to ever be captured.

[QUOTE=Commodore Armiger;52139]When one considers that the RN couldn't even prevent the former High Seas Fleet from being scuttled while under British guns at Scapa Flow and the German vessels had only skeleton crews, it seems highly unlikely that a German capital ship would have been captured intact when fully crewed with scuttling charges and sea-cocks ready to hand.[/QUOTE] Just a point. The British weren't actively preventing the High Sea Fleet from scuttling, which is why "the British guns at Scapa Flow" consisted of the destroyers "Vespa" and "Vega" and some smaller craft. Needless to say had the First Battle Squadron been in harbour things would have been different. The whole point of a skeleton crew is that it is a body of men small enough to function properly. Simon

OK guys, now you all are just teaming up on me!! Nikki

My point was that it doesn't take a full crew to sink a capital ship quickly. 1,774 German sailors scuttled 52 ships out of 74. Whether the German vessels were "under the guns" of the RN is a moot point. There certainly weren't as many guns as there should have been, Vice-Admiral Fremantle having taken the bulk of the squadron guarding the German fleet to sea on exercise. But, naively perhaps (though not I think as naive as Fremantle), I had in mind that Scapa Flow would have had shore batteries and pickets to prevent unauthorised departure by disaffected German seamen.

Any way! YOU all may think im crazy about Her and yes part of me is kind of, but i know what she did against Hood and POW, and took a gamble doing so, one wrong play on her part and she hurt bad. And if that give you guys some idea, Of what she can do to Renown and Repulse, but thats just me Nikki

The last batch of supposedly disaffected sailors had been shipped back to Germany on 17 June, something which both Fremantle and von Reuter would have welcomed for differing reasons - Fremantle for the reasons you cite, disaffected sailors trying to sail off for Germany or the Soviet Union perhaps - von Reuter because he was left with men he could rely on. Fremantle wasn't so naive: he planned to take control of the German ships on the night of 23 June as soon as the Treaty of Versailles came into effect to forestall exactly what the Germans did do. The only way of completely removing the possibility of the Germans scuttling the ships would have been to intern the sailors ashore which would have violated the terms of the Armistice. he was under orders to take his squadron to sea so he did what he was told, hoping the Germans would obey the rules. Needless to say they didn't. Simon

OK! You guys are going to have to Explain the WW 1 Armistice, which ended Germany high seas fleet and what did happen between the time they went to scapa flow naval base? thats whati wented them to do with Prinz Eugen, if helmurh chose to go back to brest! Nikki

I'm not an expert but here goes. The Armistice (a state of peace agreed to between opponents so they can discuss peace terms) came into effect 11AM on 11th November 1918 and at this point hostilities ceased. The war was not over as the terms of the german surrender had to be worked out but one of the conditions of the Armistice was that the German Fleet should be interned at Scapa Flow(Britains main Home Fleet anchorage) and so bound by the Armistice conditions the german fleet sailed to Scapa Flow and was interned. During this period the crews of the German ships were reduced to the minimum to prevent mischief. The terms of the surrender were being worked out at this point in what became known as the Treaty of Versailles which came into effect 28th June 1919 ending the First World War. The Commander of the german fleet Rear-Admiral Ludwig von Reuter had been cut off from communications with his government and whether it was simply a last act of defiance or if he believed that hostilities would restart he decided to sink his ships rather than let them be taken over by the Allies and he did this on the 21st June. The difference here was that the ships were in Scapa Flow because Germany had [COLOR="Red"]Lost[/COLOR] the war. The situation with PE was completely different as the war was still going on.

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