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Naval Tug ?? World Naval Ships Forums Archive

Naval Tug ??

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Hi fellow Modellers , you may have noticed that I had the hand of the lord strike me down whilst working on the refurbishment of HMS Manxman :mad: Well the say into everyones life a little rain must fall :roll eyes: On a brighter note ........and yes you got it first time .....this is where you come in .;) Went down the lakeside today at the Cambridge Model Boat Club and there was a retiring modellers sale and look what I picked up at no cost to me at all ....:D:D So heres the problem .......I know nothing about Tugs at all but this project was meant to be started so here I am :o So far I have a box of bits that were collected over a few years by this dear soul and put in a box , with it was a nice beefy motor [ Electronize 545] a PVC Vac form Hull 27"x 9"x 8" and a Kortz Drive [ not sure if thats how you spell it ] The final drive as you know is a combined drive / shrouded ...rudder so looks like my RC gear will be more than able to run this along with all the bits I tend to attract to a model and able to have more than enough hull area to put them in Do you have any Photographs that I can use to look at the fittings that one would have on her decks please , or layout s so that I can make this beast . Have no preconceived ideas yet ...but if nothing else comes along I would like to model her on the lines of the Tugs used down at Portsmouth old or new not bothered which .....like the ones that moved dear old Victorious around Eh Will look around and find what scale she is nearest to before I start ... Thanks for looking in :)

That was a good start ....are well ...try these:-
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Are you sure it's a Tug?, difficult to tell from the photos, but it looks to me more like one of those fast inshore fishing boats. The'S' shaped deck line doesn't look very tug like. I may be wrong. Try googling the Royal Navy Auxiliary Service, and RFA, for Tug pics Jim

Thanks Jim , I would have liked to build a Naval Tug but from what I have been able to see the hull length is not there ......but will have to ask sandy nicely if he can help me .;)

Ivor, I think it is a hull by a company which specialises in Tug hulls [can't remember their name at the mo' ........... Help me Sandy] Looking at the bits in the box a lot of them look like "Sirmar" fittings but the one thing that stands out is the Netherlands Flag ----- is this a clue methinks. ??? Whatever, it will be interested to see what you conjure up from this list of ingredients. Dave H

Not sure Dave as the box was full of cast offs and left overs including a lot of brass fittings and brass scuttles what looks like a selection of brass fittings which could make up a winch , dozens of brass balustrades 3/2/1 holed , various steel rods , brass light fittings , assorted anchors , wire , life belts, towing posts , but a right collection and various scales .......certainly not a kit ....[ I wish ] There was a scale steam tug complete but half built for a mere £350.00.....but out of my pocket :(

Ivor, this old grey-funnel-liner stoker thingie person recognises your hull as a tug.:cool: However (there's always a "however" with me), not the dockyard tug hulls as we knew them. This appears to be a more modern hull profile, especially where you have Kortz nozzle propulsion and steering included in the box o' bitz.;);) With your expertise, you may be able to fashion a "period" dockyard tug from the mould by trimming the deck line to suit eg; foredeck and hawse deck stepped down a chunk. The stern or transom should be rounded properly (don't know if this is so from the photos) and provision should be made for the tow cable supports, winch etc. Without wishing to blatantly advertise, Model Boat Mayhem has a huge Tug section (disproportionately large to my mind) which covers all sorts from early to modern. Perhaps you may get some ideas from that source. I've tried to keep this post to words of one or two syllables in order not to confuss our Commune-icatorz, but my penchant for crossword puzzles keeps coming to the fore. Dave my old mucker, d'you think I should get out more???:o I hope this helps in some way mate and meantime I shall scour the net for clues. Good luck m'dear. Sandy.

Sandy old son , Waterlooville is very close to Leydene and we know what was going on there in days gone by .......... lord forbid some of we Communicator essence rubbed off on an old Chief Poker ...... think of the dilemma .... a Klanky with knowledge of Communications :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :D:D:D:D:D:D:D However, with Ivor's question ..... I think we are on the right trach ...... she is I think Rotterdam.

SHG Models used to do a range of vac formed hulls and kits. Could this be one of theirs?

Thanks Medway , have no plans / details or anything other than the hull sadly . Sandy the route is fine by me but the stern is squared rather than rounded , but yes I have enough freeboard to step it down thanks . I am only using the schottel as it was free [ £73.00 new from Cornwall models ] and it saves me about £150.00 , had I had to stick in twin screws and rudders .

Does this help Sandy ? 1/ hull looking from above 2/ hull looking from side 3/ hull from stern 4/ if no usable design found may do this as last resort but would prefer naval type I drilled the hole in the bottom to get an idea how the schottel Drive would fit and to get an idea of how much I would need to elevate the internal base plate as if I just fit it straight in the pro would be about 3 1/2' below the hull bottom bit like an outboard motor with a long shaft length ...... so would need to put a packer in there to raise it up so that the bottom of the prop casing would be just a little below the keel line but still able to rotate ....unlike a fixed Kortz drive shroud
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Ivor, I don't know if this particular tug model would fit in chronologically with VICTORIOUS; MANXMAN or TROUBRIDGE. But I still reckon it's worth the effort of building it and painting it in RN dockyard livery. The upper works are not too different to the most modern of dockyard tugs in the seventies or eighties and only the underwater propulsion gives it away as "modern". So press ahead old son, waste not .....want not.:D Herewith an image of what a period dockyard tug looks like, courtesy PMBDT website. Sandy.
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[QUOTE=Dave Hutson;10109744]Sandy old son , Waterlooville is very close to Leydene and we know what was going on there in days gone by .......... lord forbid some of we Communicator essence rubbed off on an old Chief Poker ...... think of the dilemma .... a Klanky with knowledge of Communications :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :D:D:D:D:D:D:D However, with Ivor's question ..... I think we are on the right trach ...... she is I think Rotterdam.[/QUOTE] Leydene. My last draft Dave, as Chief Fireman and NBCDI. My son did part II training there with me and he was immediately shipped orf to South Atlantic, post training, aboard FEARLESS. So I do believe that some of the Communicators etiquette rubbed off on me, but I still retain my oil coating. (I'll never drown).;):D Sandy.

[QUOTE=Destroyerman;10109838]Ivor, I don't know if this particular tug model would fit in chronologically with VICTORIOUS; MANXMAN or TROUBRIDGE. But I still reckon it's worth the effort of building it and painting it in RN dockyard livery. The upper works are not too different to the most modern of dockyard tugs in the seventies or eighties and only the underwater propulsion gives it away as "modern". So press ahead old son, waste not .....want not.:D Herewith an image of what a period dockyard tug looks like, courtesy PMBDT website. Sandy.[/QUOTE] That looks like exactly what I am after Sandy and yes could be forged as a Navy Tug .......:D:D Will proceed on that basis ....thank you very much ....what type of scale are we on here mate 1/24..... 1/32 ish

[QUOTE=Destroyerman;10109839]Leydene. My last draft Dave, as Chief Fireman and NBCDI. My son did part II training there with me and he was immediately shipped orf to South Atlantic, post training, aboard FEARLESS. So I do believe that some of the Communicators etiquette rubbed off on me, but I still retain my oil coating. (I'll never drown).;):D Sandy.[/QUOTE] You probably spent more time at the College of Knowledge than I did Sandy, too many b....y Communicators there for my liking :):)

[QUOTE=ivorthediver;10109833]Does this help Sandy ? 1/ hull looking from above 2/ hull looking from side 3/ hull from stern 4/ if no usable design found may do this as last resort but would prefer naval type I drilled the hole in the bottom to get an idea how the schottel Drive would fit and to get an idea of how much I would need to elevate the internal base plate as if I just fit it straight in the pro would be about 3 1/2' below the hull bottom bit like an outboard motor with a long shaft length ...... so would need to put a packer in there to raise it up so that the bottom of the prop casing would be just a little below the keel line but still able to rotate ....unlike a fixed Kortz drive shroud[/QUOTE] Ivor, with so many vessels leased to the MOD these days the tug in pic 4 would not look out of line in MOD Tug livery. Go for it ..... looking forward to the result. Dave H

[QUOTE=ivorthediver;10109843]That looks like exactly what I am after Sandy and yes could be forged as a Navy Tug .......:D:D Will proceed on that basis ....thank you very much ....what type of scale are we on here mate 1/24..... 1/32 ish[/QUOTE] If I remember correctly Ivor, it is 1:24 scale. A very good model, full of bells and whistles etc. Seldom used on the water as the owner cannot lift it.!!:rolleyes: Sandy.

Just read your posts lads and to Daves embarrassed ......to Sandys humbled Don't want to make a big thing of it but in the last four years my life has changed from always feeling inferior to now realising that with the right situation and the right friends any mountain can be climbed . This man is a happy contented man and has met his goals in life :o Now to business ....1/24 you say ...thanks thats a starting point , and now I can research the items needed to be worthy of your trust ............I have it in my minds eye ......now to transfer it into reality ...thanks my friends ....watch this space . Now all I need is shed loads of detail or pictures of this type so that I can implement it .:o.....status now number three project and climbing

Hi Sandy , been doing some research on components and found a few specialist suppliers [ never realised there were suppliers of the bits , and once you have decided what you are doing and where you are its quite a choice ......so getting quite inspired now :D I always imagined Tugs as filthy squalled rust buckets , run by converted pirates :eek:.....so looking forward to pitching it some where in the middle , or were Navy tugs different , and kept as new by the RFA :confused: Do you have any pictures of Tug deck layouts and fittings please . At what point did they use Diesel , and where they oil fired prior to that or Turbine , or steam boilers oil fired ....must admit not knowing much about them :o

Whilst going through some bits of reclaimed mouldings that Ron gave me when I was last up there a couple of years ago now , and found two sets of funnel vac formed sections ..... so glued those together in the hope that they may be useful later .

I have sent off to Amazon for some pictures of tugs to help me as I haven't a clue what type of deck gear they had , [ don't worry they are all " used " ;)] Still not quite sure about scale as the hull I have looks quite short [ 27...29 inches by ] so not sure wether to go for 1/24 or 1/32 ....although its not critical as it is not a replica I would like it to be as close as possible without spending shed loads of money on it

Well that was swift , I received one of the books today on "British tugs" printed in 1957 priced 2/6 :cool: I was amazed to see that the Admiralty had placed orders for tugs built new in 1957 which were still propelled by Paddle wheels :eek: These were Dexterous, Director, Faithful ,Favourite, Forceful ,Grinder , Griper.. and were diesel electric powered , and operated in Portsmouth and Chatham around 475 gross tons , 1,600,horse power ........you learn something new every day eh . I thought they went out years ago At the time of print [ 1957] they were as follows :- 1/ Fleet Tugs Funnel Grey or grey with black top Hull ..Grey with black boot topping [ light grey for tropics] 2/ Dockyard Tugs Funnel Yellow with black top and narrow blue band Hull Black with blue line and red boot topping 3/ Armament Supply Tugs Funnel yellow with black top and red band bordered by narrow white bands Hull ..Black with red bands bordered by white lines and red boot topping 4/ Director of Victualling Funnel Yellow with black top and narrow green band Hull black 5/ Director of Stores Tugs Funnel Yellow with black top and narrow black band Hull black 6/ Civil Engineer-in-Chief Funnel yellow with black top separated by narrow white over black bands Hull black . Not sure the system still exists but that was the state of play then , and at the time they had 100 tugs on the books ,4 in reserve , and some 6 on charter, and others based at:- Gibralter , Malta , Trincomalee ,Singapore , Hong Kong, Kilindini, and Simonstown Sadly they had no decent pictures of the deck layout or superstructure / colour detail all being very small black and white post war productions ....so the search goes on :(

Ivor, Google 'Free Tug Plans', images, behold. More plans an you could 'shake a stick at' Jim

Thanks Jim , had a look at it but unable to get any prints off the website displayed ..........never mind nice of you to think of me .........like the Train site ...well done you .

It was more to give you an idea of what is out there. Have you ever thought of trying a non standard method of constructing hulls. I used to get Model Boats Magazine every month. ( even while in the 'Mob', Greta used to send it ) Over the years there were some unusual ideas. One was a form of papier-mâché , I tried it , it was a trawler, Boston something or other. It was plank on frame construction, but the you only sort of used every other plank. You then covered the hull in strips of news paper soaked in wallpaper paste using the double diagonal method. I think I did about 4 layers, the last one like hull plating, several coats of waterproof varnish inside and out. Power was a 'Mighty Midget' and a bike lamp battery, steering by Devine providence!. There were lots of ideas on hull construction, especially in the early part of the 20th centuary, if you dig around a bit. By the way, that one survived several moves and skippers (sons and their mates). And for all I know is still in service somewhere. Jim

Good job Ivor.;) You are doing a grand job of your research into Pusser's tugs. I didn't know that there were so many differing paint themes for each Dockyard departmental tug, they all looked the same to me, apart from the "big ocean goers", all grey affairs.:rolleyes: Isn't it particularly pleasing when you come up with the goods yourself?;) Keep it up and keep us informed mate. Sandy.

Right heres a puzzle for you lads ...lets see who's in the know here :cool: When the Tug is being built I would like to simulate engine cooling by having a water flow coming out of the hull side ....Still with me :confused: Whilst at a boat show in Leicester a couple of years ago I saw model life boats with water coming out of their transom .....simulating engine coolant ....and others on the hull side .....looked Very realistic ......[bearing in mind these were all electric boats on the indoor lake ] ......do you know where to find such a thing please :confused: It does not need to move large volumes of water merely emulate coolant being discharged .......any ideas please

Managed to pick up some bits and bobs at the club today and some bits that could be used on the Tug , as well as files , Digital vernier gauge's and some very useful racking system ............and a scribe on a stand for detailing the boot line on the hull ....very useful eh . thinking of lining the bottom of the PVC hull with Fibreglass mesh . as also found some going begging , as the PVC is only 1mm thick :eek: I did this to the base of Victorious to bond the timber base in it which held all the fitting / batteries / motors etc , it worked well :)

Ivor, As requested, details and history about the tug I'm helping to restore, not a naval tug but she was requestioned by the Admiralty for one month in 1914 LOA 110' 6" Beam 24' 6" Draft 9' 6" GRT 175 tons Built 1903 by Tranmere Bay Development Co. as Ralph Brocklebank for the Shropshire Union Railway & Canal Co. to tow barges and ferry passengers from Ellesmere Port to Liverpool. Sold to Manchester Ship Canal Co, in 1921 and used as ship handling tug. In 1936 she had a major refit and converted into the Ship Canal's inspection vessel and renamed Daniel Adamson after the first director of the Ship Canal. She worked on the Ship Canal until 1986 and was then laid up at the Boat Museum in Ellesmere Port. After deteriorating and being vandalised for 18 years she was due to be scrapped but was bought by the Daniel Adamson Preservation Society in 2004 for £1.00. We moved her to Liverpool and we have been working to conserve and restore her ever since. She still has a lot of her original equipment including her original 1903 compound steam engines which we have completely restored. She has a coal fired three furnace scotch boiler dating from 1953. Our aim is to get up and steaming again and because she can carry 100 passengers will hope to offer trips on a steam ship to the general public. We are applying for lottery funding to get the boiler, hull and superstructure restored. This what she looked like in her working years The first photo taken in 1907 passing Pier Head as the Ralph Brocklebank. Second photo taken in 1947 lying alongside Liverpool Landing Stage Third photo taken in 1979 in the Ship Canal near Warrington Fourth photo taken in 1981 in the Ship Canal John
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[QUOTE=ivorthediver;10110356]Right heres a puzzle for you lads ...lets see who's in the know here :cool: When the Tug is being built I would like to simulate engine cooling by having a water flow coming out of the hull side ....Still with me :confused: Whilst at a boat show in Leicester a couple of years ago I saw model life boats with water coming out of their transom .....simulating engine coolant ....and others on the hull side .....looked Very realistic ......[bearing in mind these were all electric boats on the indoor lake ] ......do you know where to find such a thing please :confused: It does not need to move large volumes of water merely emulate coolant being discharged .......any ideas please[/QUOTE] The cheapest way , ( although it only works when underway ) is to mount a scoop just behind the prop, this comes through the hull and attached to it a poly tube, and in your case back out through the side of the hull. This is how we cooled our Diesel engines, converted model a/c engines with a water jacket instead of fins and a fly wheel and string for starting. You could even coil it round your motor for cooling Or buy a wee pump. Ps don't know if it would work with a Kort Nozzle. Jim

[QUOTE=BelliniTosi;10110363]Ivor, As requested, details and history about the tug I'm helping to restore, not a naval tug but she was requestioned by the Admiralty for one month in 1914 LOA 110' 6" Beam 24' 6" Draft 9' 6" GRT 175 tons Built 1903 by Tranmere Bay Development Co. as Ralph Brocklebank for the Shropshire Union Railway & Canal Co. to tow barges and ferry passengers from Ellesmere Port to Liverpool. Sold to Manchester Ship Canal Co, in 1921 and used as ship handling tug. In 1936 she had a major refit and converted into the Ship Canal's inspection vessel and renamed Daniel Adamson after the first director of the Ship Canal. She worked on the Ship Canal until 1986 and was then laid up at the Boat Museum in Ellesmere Port. After deteriorating and being vandalised for 18 years she was due to be scrapped but was bought by the Daniel Adamson Preservation Society in 2004 for £1.00. We moved her to Liverpool and we have been working to conserve and restore her ever since. She still has a lot of her original equipment including her original 1903 compound steam engines which we have completely restored. She has a coal fired three furnace scotch boiler dating from 1953. Our aim is to get up and steaming again and because she can carry 100 passengers will hope to offer trips on a steam ship to the general public. We are applying for lottery funding to get the boiler, hull and superstructure restored. This what she looked like in her working years The first photo taken in 1907 passing Pier Head as the Ralph Brocklebank. Second photo taken in 1947 lying alongside Liverpool Landing Stage Third photo taken in 1979 in the Ship Canal near Warrington Fourth photo taken in 1981 in the Ship Canal John[/QUOTE] Thank you very much John , what a lovely surprise , and such a worthwhile project .....I envy you Nice shots of the ole girl and she looks in fine fettle , well done and thank you so much for letting us see her here

[QUOTE=Vegaskip;10110368]The cheapest way , ( although it only works when underway ) is to mount a scoop just behind the prop, this comes through the hull and attached to it a poly tube, and in your case back out through the side of the hull. This is how we cooled our Diesel engines, converted model a/c engines with a water jacket instead of fins and a fly wheel and string for starting. You could even coil it round your motor for cooling Or buy a wee pump. Ps don't know if it would work with a Kort Nozzle. Jim[/QUOTE] Thanks for the tip Jim , very kind of you . She will actually be running on a Schottel Drive which is similar but the whole drive is steerable ....Korts and all and can turn 180+ degrees which should prove interesting . I do have a very small 12v pump motor some one gave me which was used to cool some type of early computer style equipment and I am tempted to wire that in and see if it works well enough . Some model suppliers sell water pumps for model boat Fire hydrants but they say that they should only run for thirty seconds and then rest for 2 mins .....so they will not be much good

[QUOTE=ivorthediver;10110356]Right heres a puzzle for you lads ...lets see who's in the know here :cool: When the Tug is being built I would like to simulate engine cooling by having a water flow coming out of the hull side ....Still with me :confused: Whilst at a boat show in Leicester a couple of years ago I saw model life boats with water coming out of their transom .....simulating engine coolant ....and others on the hull side .....looked Very realistic ......[bearing in mind these were all electric boats on the indoor lake ] ......do you know where to find such a thing please :confused: It does not need to move large volumes of water merely emulate coolant being discharged .......any ideas please[/QUOTE] Take yourself down to the local garden centre Ivor and have a look at the Gardenia auto sprinkler systems there. You can but a fairly robust pipe network there. But be very, very careful how you fit either end (intake/outlet). If these should come apart whilst under way, you get the submarine effect.:eek: As you say, coolant outlet is very impressive and lifelike in a model, and the correct metred flow is important too. There are 6 Volt low output pumps on the market but cannot remember where at present. Sandy.

Thanks for the advice Sandy ............duly taken on board . Have done quite bit of research now on the type of vessel I would like to produce it now remains to be seen if I can produce it .............. The picture is in my minds eye now .........thats half the work done ...........just need to buy what I need and make it :o

The hull casing which as mentioned earlier was 1mm thick , appeared a tad risky so I decided to line the inside of the hull with some gash fibreglass mat and resin as well as some stiffeners of the plastic sheet I recently built , and another hull floor to make it more robust . Why you ask ?...............well I use amongst others superglue to fix some items ......and whilst doing so found that it melted the PVC side of the hull .....which can be repaired....... I was really surprised to see happen:eek: Still no big deal as with the additional internal coating can soon be filled . Was looking at towing gear for her and I am confused as to which type to use as there are seemingly many variations to chose from , but the current favourite seems to be the Hydraulic main winch with combination Tow Hook . As the name implies it has a tow hook above which is a wide cable drum housing a heavy tow rope with a narrower one alongside . I understand that in addition to this there would be a large capstan in the rear centre deck area to draw in cables / tow ropes ....is this right ?

A near miss there Ivor ......... a tip from someone who has been there too .... when applying fibreglass and resin to a plastic hull always immerse the hull in water ....... the heat generated during the cure is high. My German MTB has a slightly rippled underbelly where the previous owner added F&R without immersion. But no mind the build has started ........ good luck. Dave H

Just goes to prove that you are never to old to learn eh Dave :o Checked the hull today and its drying nicely so will let it dry completely before fiddling with it . Will fit the deck [with a suitable cut out ], next and then take it down the lake to find out the displacement height before going to far with the build .

As you will read on the Manxman thread , I have made a shallow dock in the garden so will look at depth etc next week when able . What I wasn't expecting was a little water seepage up the drive train so will have to look into that in more detail .

Ivor, are you aware of this book Fifty Years of Naval Tugs by Bill Hannan ISBN 0 907771 25 4 160 Pages and many photos Just thought it could be useful to you. John
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Thank you John I will look into that as it is very cheap to purchase second hand .

Progress a little slow at present as I seam to be collecting small amounts of water beneath the second skin applied to the PVC hull , and don't seem to be able to identify where its coming from .....although I suspect the drive shaft of the propulsion system . This has already been striped down and liberally greased and a new O ring fitted to the schottel.... and whilst minor I want to be able to eliminate it however I have little knowledge of this system from a practical point of view ....but whilst doing soak tests[ with a large battery inside] about 1/4 a cupful gained entry over a three hour period ......any bright ideas lads :confused:

[QUOTE=ivorthediver;10112634] ....but whilst doing soak tests[ with a large battery inside] about 1/4 a cupful gained entry over a three hour period ......any bright ideas lads :confused:[/QUOTE] Drill a hole in the bottom of the cup Ivor .............................. :D:D:D:rolleyes:;) Sandy (at his most ridiculous).;)

Dave joins Sandy Engineroom crew to wear wetsuits with scubasets. :D:D:D Sorry mate ,,,,, can't help , never built a shuttle. Dave H

hmmmmmmmm, surrounded by smart arses I see ..........never mind I will get the better of it .....I'm an adopted Stoker :p .............just thought with all this knowledge within my grasp from the cream of the Modelling fraternity some one would have the nuance......:(

Sorry for being so glib earlier mate.;):o But I just couldn't resist it, (it's the cartoonist in me).;) Like Dave, I'm not familiar with differing modern drives ..... we're belt and braces propeller men. Could you give us more by way of description or images then I'll get the modelling juices flowing. As you are aware, I'm no longer in the local "fraternity". Regards, Bodgitt's oppo.

Well I have been successful in sealing the leak at last and tracked it down to a tiny crack in the very thin vac formed hull , but now repaired . this makes me happier that I lined the internal hull with Fibre Glass below the deck line , but as its so fragile I am beefing up the top end in various ways . Today [Sunday] I have trimmed the top edge of the mould to fit a rounded edge to the top of the gunwale by cutting a section of tube on one side and sliding it over to strengthen the side of the hull above the deck line . Following the recommendation proffered by John I was disappointed to see no illustrations of the decks , and although a good book it merely shows profiles of the Tugs but a tad closer .....but thanks for the kind thought John . In spite of the forgoing comment it has enabled me to narrow down the field a lot and my choice would be HM Tug Empire Charles [1944] built by H Scarr ltd in Hessle of the Empire class . Allocated to Portsmouth Dockyard in 1947 and renamed" Fortitude "........ Now due to the confines of the hull style I am going to have to fabricate and fit a rounded stern to give even a passing resemblance of the vessel :(:( so wish me luck won't you ;)

Here is a poor picture of her , sadly the only one I have , with precious little detail other than silhouette.......so bare with me please . If anyone has any others I would be extremely grateful as I know not where to find any :(
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Not Fortitude, but a couple of other Empire Class tugs in colour, which might help with your detail.
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I trawled around the net this afternoon to see if I could find any images of FORTITUDE, but could only find one similar to yours Ivor, possibly same pic but different website.:rolleyes: Sandy.
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[QUOTE=jbryce1437;10113259]Not Fortitude, but a couple of other Empire Class tugs in colour, which might help with your detail.[/QUOTE] Thank you so much Jim , a great help especially of the superstructure lines , again my thanks

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