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Small Wooden Boat Identification - Help Needed World Naval Ships Forums Archive

Small Wooden Boat Identification - Help Needed

Posts 1 to 18

Dear Forum members have you come across such a boat type before? (pictures at link below) It was recently discovered in the basement of the Imperial Palace in Istanbul without any acquisition note. Probably dating to first quarter of 20th century. A European model built perhaps in Istanbul. Plank on frame, chined. It was designed to fit an engine which was never mounted. Could it be that Turkish tholepins were added later, however the oars are European not Turkish (with bulbs). There were no davit hooks inside, that would make it a ships' tender. The Dolmabahce Palace by the waterside on Bosphorus was originally home of Sultans, later by occupying British Navy between 1918-23. After the Republic was established, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (founder of Modern Turkey after the collapse of Ottoman Empire) lived and died there. He loved ships and boats. He often appeared publicly rowing oarboats. Many thanks in advance for your input. Please also forward the message whoever might help. [url]https://picasaweb.google.com/111467177570063876963/Dolmabahce_sandal?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKaH4obH476UXw&feat=directlink[/url] Gencer Emiroglu

Hello Gencer, Thanks for the interesting photographs. This is not a boat of either Royal Navy or Imperial German Navy origin that I am aware of and I am familar with the appearance of most of the types used by both navies during the early 20th Century. It is therefore probable that it was built by and for a civilian, in which case you are in for a long "hunt" to derive its origins. I will have a check in a facsimile copy of a German book that I have: "Bootsbau," which may give a clue but I am not too sure of my chances that I will be able to help. GK

Thank you Lieutenant for your comments I think it is clear that we are not looking for an official navy craft. It may look strange that in the search for the origins of the emergence of a foreign small watercraft, to look for help in naval ships forum. however being a small craft historian, when searching for origins of new types of small boats , dinghies, wherries, Jolle s, small boats emerging in Levant waters in the late 19th erly 20th century, I often came across some kind of naval connection, either Ottoman or foreign. This type of water craft has never been recorded before in Istanbul waters- Bosphorus of Istanbul -like canals of Venice- is attractive for pleasure boating. The sheltered waters were not used only for transport but also for socialising, for strolling. During four years of occupation by allied forces in Istanbul 1919-23, Royal Navy officiers must have felt safe to arrange football matches with local clubs. Therefore it is likely that they enjoyed strolling with waterfront boats. May be this boat was ordered in this period by/for a British commander who resided in the palace by the water, providing with the plans, to a local boat builder. Do you think this is a very unlikely possibility? On the other hand i think naval ships had their own pleasure craft on board for officers' use _ ı had read SMS Goeben had sailing dingies. My question would be : Do most naval war ships had pleasure dingies, small launches (different than lifeboats and tenders)? If yes how they were launched to water? Were they equipped with davit hooks or not necessarily?(in early 20th century) regards Gencer Emiroglu

Gencer, I can only speak from my experience in the Royal Navy.;) 1957 -1982. Of course we carried "ships boats", smaller craft up to 50' long. The most general were 25' Motor boats (hoisted on davits); 27' whalers (hoisted on davits and used as sea boats) in case of incidents at sea. Further down the scale were smaller boats, named Skimming Dishes, which were, in fact, the Captain's gig. These were motorised and were quite similar in size and design to your boat in question. Also carried were 14' and 16' clinker built dinghies, lifeboats in smaller escort ships (Corvettes) and recreational sailing boats as well. Later in the 1960's came the fibreglass dedicated class sailing dinghies named Bosun. Later in the 1960's came the Gemini inflatable boats. Going up the scale were: 30'? Cheverton. 36' motor Pinnace with Kitchen steering gear, highly manoeuvrable. 40' pulling cutter (double banked). 50' motor cutter. 50' motor launch... ........most of which were carried on board Capital Ships and Aircraft carriers. Also, mainly on board Battleships and Battlecruisers, were the 50' steam pinnaces, absolutely stunning boats. All of the above larger boats were known as "Boom Boats" because they were lifted and launched from their cradles by means of a boom; and the 25' Motor Cutter and 27' whaler were known as "Sea Boats" because they were lowered comparitively easily from their davits by a ship at sea. I hope this gives a flavour of what boats were carried during my time at sea, and no doubt the whole thing has changed by now. And please note, I'm not a seaman, just an interested marine engineer.:rolleyes:;) Sandy.

Also, from another interested Engineer; There were two classes of Steam and Motor boats, quoted in the 1937 Manual of seamanship, 'Fast' and 'Slow'. There was a Motor Dinghy in both classes. In the 'slow' type, there were 2 sizes; 16 feet and 13.5 feet. The extreme breadth was 5 feet 5 inches, and 4 feet eleven inches respectively. The 13.5 feet type, fitted with sails and had a detachable motor. (For use with submarines only) The 'fast' type were non-standard at that time. 16 feet long by 5 feet six inches breadth. These were mainly for Destroyers and Sloops' use, but could be carried in all ships. They had various engines, with Brake Horse Power ranges between 24 and 48.

Many thanks for the addendum Andy.;) Sandy.

Gencer, I have checked the facsimile copy of the German book "Bootsbau" that I have and cannot find any drawing in it to compare with the photographs of the boat that you have posted, which would indicate that the boat is of German build. I must therefore conclude that the boat is not German. That said it is possible that the boat may have come to Turkey onboard YAVUZ ex GOEBEN but it willl not have been a boat of an official Kaiserliche Marine pattern. "Bootsbau" is a publication that contains a considerable amount of useful information; with very good drawings, about boats of the Kaiserliche Marine. The facsimile is of the last edition, printed in about 1927 and I believe that copies of it are still readily available. There are earlier editions but these are now likely to be found only in a German library. If you wish to make further enquiries about the official pattern boats of the type that GOEBEN was carrying then I suggest that you make enquiries at the Deutsches Schiffahrtsmuseum in Bremen. It is known that that organisation does have a copy of at least one earlier edition of "Bootsbau." If you just wish to know what types of boat and the numbers of them that GOEBEN/YAVUZ was fitted with then please get back to me. Concerning your question as to how a boat of this type would have been lowered over the side if it had been brought to Turkey in GOEBEN then if it was an official pattern boat it would have been swung out using one of the two derricks fitted in the ship with slings attached to "points" in the boat. However, if it was a "privately owned boat and that is possible, then it may have been lowered using some form of a set of extempore slings attached to the aforementioned derrick: that would not have been difficult to a seaman. I've noted what the other correspondents have written. I am sure that the boat that you have is not of an official Royal Navy pattern and I am pretty sure that she is not British at all. She just does not look British but I could be wrong. Hope this helps. GK

Personally I feel that the forward "windscreen" is wrong, and its shape may be misleading some people attempting to identify it. It's nothing specific, but the lines of the boat and its coaming are nicely shaped and quite elegant, whereas the forward screen looks like an add - on. Added to which of course it's not painted like the rest of the boat. Quite what the forward end of the coaming was like can probably only be guessed, but I would look for lines in the paintwork on the foredeck, unless it can be stripped and marks found on the bare wood. Probably not much help, but that's my fourpenn'orth:confused::confused: Steve

Dear GK, I loved everything you wrote but your last sentence confused me. You say the launch boat was definitly not British! Normally I should trust you as our ally, rather than to believe the to British occupiers of Istanbul :) I feel the same dilemna as the Sultan 100 years ago now, When the war was declared he had to choose between British and German. When Churchill ordered the seizing for the Royal navy, the Turkish battleship Reshadieh (HMS Erin) built in Newcastle and that we had payed for, the Germans helped us by giving us SMS Goeben(Yavuz) and Breslau, so we found ourself in the war. But I think the war is over now and Destroyerman and ap1 don't seem to be heartless as Churchill :) I hope you like humor. Now, to be serious I appreciated very much your thinking of a possible YAVUZ battleship connection, I read in the memoires of Goeben's capitain that just before the pursuit of Goeben and Breslau started, by the British Mediterranean fleet, they dumped everything out from the ship, in Italy, tables, carpets, boats, pictures everything not useful for battle. So I dont think they would keep this boat and bring it in Istanbul. I always wondered what might have happened to those ship boats left in Italy. However I would love to get a copy of Bootsbau printed in 1927 to see at least what those boats looked like. I also asked for help fromanother forum in US which focused on old marine engines. They also pointed to a British type both for the hull and for the engine. They said it should be a single cylinder 4-5 hp. This fits well with Destroyermans' definition of Capitain's gig type and ap1's "slow" motor specifications. I am thankful to all of you. Gencer

Eskimosailor, you are right, I was told the windscreen was damaged when they were transporting the boat inside the museum. They said they did the exact replica of the windscreen frame but I doubt it, it looks a little odd, not as fine as the lines of the boat.

Gencer, one way of establishing whether or not your boat may be shipborne is to look closely at the keel inboard of the boat. There may be one or two reinforced holes in the keel, such as where large shackles could be installed for lifting purposes. (Shoreside lifting is generally by strops). Further to that suggestion, look closely along the gunwhale capping (or just inboard) to see if there are (were) eyes for the steading chain (athwartships) to keep the boat steady during any lifting or hoisting by derrick. The fact that there is a prominent bung in the hull indicates that it may have been used as a ships boat, but its presence is not definitive.;) Sandy.

I notice there are many threads on various metal fittings and connections. The type of thread, and in particular the form of the threads should indicate if the boat is of British manufacture. It would be simple to use a thread gauge to verify this. If the threads turn out to be a metric or other non-Whitworth form, then I suppose the British build can be dismissed.

[QUOTE=ap1;10054383]I notice there are many threads on various metal fittings and connections. The type of thread, and in particular the form of the threads should indicate if the boat is of British manufacture. It would be simple to use a thread gauge to verify this. If the threads turn out to be a metric or other non-Whitworth form, then I suppose the British build can be dismissed.[/QUOTE] This includes BSF (British Standard Fine) Andy. Quite popular on British warships along with the coarser Whitworth threads.:);) Sandy.

[QUOTE=Destroyerman;10054394]This includes BSF (British Standard Fine) Andy. Quite popular on British warships along with the coarser Whitworth threads.:);) Sandy.[/QUOTE] Yes, Sandy. The Whitworth 'form' is identical to that used on B.S.F. 'form'. (55 deg. slope angle, radiused top and bottom, calculation of depth and radius identical in both forms):);)

Hello again Gencer, Many thanks for your appreciation of my work. With reference to your comment on the matter of the take-over of RESHADIEH: shame on you, you also forgot to mention SULTAN OSMAN 1 (HMS AGINCOURT)!:rolleyes::cool::). However, may I try to conclude on this matter? Concerning the sentence that puzzled you. My apologies, I was trying to say tnat after some time studying boats of a certain type/nationality one begins to get what I can only term an "instinct." This is not 100% reliable but has served me well on a number of occasions. I will say again that I do not believe that your boat is British at all. However, I may be wrong. What leads me to my conclusion is the "peculiar" (ornamental?) "doubling" of the planking at the bow and stern. Also the shapes of the cleats for securing mooring ropes forward and aft appear peculiarly "un-British." Don't take my word for it though, do consider trying the Royal Museums, Greenwich (formerly the National Maritime Museum). Other correspondents have made observations/suggestions that may help, like the type of threads on bolts and whether the measurements of various fitting are on the Metric or Imperial scales. These are useful. I must repeat that I consider that the boat is not government or commercial contract built for the Royal Navy. If it had been then you will find certain characters carved into the stem post and somewhere on the stern of the boat. I can't see any on the starboard side of the boat. Are there any on the port side? If there are then it will change my opinion. If not then my belief on this point is correct. However, if there are what are they, please? This concludes what I have to say on the matter unless you think that there is anything else you think that I can help you with. Meanwhile I do suggest that investigations into the origins of the boat should continue. If not of Turkish origin then perhaps someone should widen the field of research and try museums in France and Italy and possibly Greece. I don't think that the boat is German but would not give up on this point. There may still be an avenue of enquiry there: I am not sure. Best Wishes, GK

Dear GK, Sandy, Andy and other members of the Forum, many thanks for sharing your observations and comments about my boat. I did not know that navy possessed such a variety of ship boats and dinghies. I am amazed. As a small craft enthousiats It opened totaly a new world for me. I am trying to digest now what you provided. But I have other priorities at the moment , I realize that I should do more homework to pursue the research on the origins of the boat. In the meantime I want to share a picture that came across recently. In this picture dating exactly from 1940 one sees a Turkish launch rescuing the marshall Atalay who fell accidently in the water during national maritime festivities :)) The location is Bosphorus/Istanbul, in front of military academy. Because of the location of the military academy by the waterside, Navy and Military have chosen the location to be appropriate for the event. The men in swimming suits are students of the academy. The men in dark color jackets and white trousers are navy officiers. Others are military. So probably there were naval ships on the spot and that this boat was a navy boat. The launch boat in picture has very similar windscreen to our boat. But it seems that it is more developed model since rudder is not controlled by tiller and also there the engine is not in the center of the cockpit apparently. We dont see the same ornamental planking, nor the torpedo stern but can we consider that our boat is a Turkish navy boat built in Turkish arsenals' small craft yards from European plans? -Regards Sefer Reis
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Sefer, your picture adds a brand new dimension to the issue.;) Perhaps if the thread were moved from the modellling section to the main section, more responses may be forthcoming? Sandy.

[QUOTE=Destroyerman;10057028]Sefer, your picture adds a brand new dimension to the issue.;) Perhaps if the thread were moved from the modellling section to the main section, more responses may be forthcoming? Sandy.[/QUOTE] Don't know how to do it! Must be an admin thing? Coming back to our boat, some Turkish friends expert on industrial history confirmed that the tubes and fittings were Turkish made. The boat must have been built in Istanbul on W. European plans. I still have to find out what this boat was doing in the palace where Mustafa kemal Ataturk has died.:confused: He suffered kind of a lung disease and was advised to breath fresh sea air. M/Y Savarona (made in Hamburg for an American owner) was bought for him as a state yacht in 1938 which must have her own boats for shore service. He spent only six weeks aboard and died shortly after. Also it is less unlikely the boat was used land based as the palace docks dont have any launching ramp for a boat however there was a basin nearby. See picture attached of palace docks about 50 years before Ataturk s death: Visit of Kaiser Wilhelm II to Istanbul. It is a mistery realy. The boat was never used on water, the engine was not mounted So we dont know! :( Thanks. -Gencer
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