Commander Peter Carmichael DSO RN (FAA Pilot WW2/Korea) World Naval Ships Forums Archive

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Commander Peter Carmichael DSO RN (FAA Pilot WW2/Korea) World Naval Ships Forums Archive

Commander Peter Carmichael DSO RN (FAA Pilot WW2/Korea)

Posts 1 to 5

Peter “Hoagy” Carmichael was a Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm pilot who during the Korean War obtained the rare distinction of being credited with shooting down a MiG-15 while flying a Hawker Sea Fury - the only confirmed kill by a British pilot of a piston-engined aircraft over a jet fighter. After Joining the Navy in 1942, he was sent to Pensacola for his flying training and then on to South Africa. His first action occurred in May 1944, flying Seafires with 889 Squadron from HMS Atheling in the Bay of Bengal. Later in 1945 now with 1834 squadron and flying off HMS Victorious, he took part in ground attacks against oil refineries in Sumatra, Japanese airfields in Okinawa and very late in the war he was also engaged in flying operations with the US 3rd Fleet against mainland Japan (in Vought F4U Corsairs). After WW2, Carmichael flew the Blackburn Firebrand, before converting to the Hawker Sea Fury in June 1948. Then in April 1952 Carmichael’s squadron (NAS 802) deployed to Korea aboard HMS Ocean. On 9 August 1952 Carmichael was leading a four aircraft formation to attack railway facilities between Manchon and Pyongyang. Somewhere north of Chinnampo Lt. Carl Haines (Carmichael’s No. 2 wingman) reported ‘eight bogies, 4 o’clock’ and stream of tracer came in. Describing the action in his own words, Carmichael said “We all turned towards the MiGs and commenced a scissors. It soon became apparent that four MiGs were after each section of two Furies, but by continuing our break turns, we presented impossible targets. They made no attempt to bracket us. One MiG came at me head on. I saw his heavy tracer shells. I fired a burst, then he flashed past me. I believe Carl got some hits on him too. This aircraft then broke away, and went head on to my Nos 3 & 4, (Lts. Pete Davies & 'Smoo' Ellis). They were seen to get good hits on one who broke away with smoke coming from him”. The dog-fight lasted 4-5 minutes, after which the MiGs disappeared as quickly as they had come. As they departed, one aircraft was seen to crash into a hillside, and blow up. Lt. Carmichael was credited with this kill and was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross (although to be fair, it has to be said that because no gun-site cameras were fitted to the aircraft, some doubt exists as to whether the credit should have gone to a single pilot, or to the entire flight). In 1960, Carmichael became Commanding Officer of NAS 806 based at Lossiemouth flying Hawker Sea Hawks. After leaving the service he then went on to serve as Commanding Officer of T.S. Prince of Wales, the Holyhead Sea Cadet unit and was also the President of the HMS Ocean Association.

"Carmichael was credited with this kill and was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross (although to be fair, it has to be said that because no gun-site cameras were fitted to the aircraft, some doubt exists as to whether the credit should have gone to a single pilot, or to the entire flight)". Pretty fair assessment Michael-particularly as no gun-sight cameras were fitted to any of the aircraft involved. jainso31

Woops - just noticed that I mis-typed the header and upgraded Carmichael to a DSO whereas he 'only' got the DSC (being a Lieut. at the time). Michael

From today’s “The Times”. [CENTER][U][B]Dogfight's famous kill finally credited to rightful pilot[/B][/U] [/CENTER] For 65 years the aviation world has credited the wrong man for one of the Fleet Air Arm’s most memorable days. The British naval pilot who shot down a North Korean fighter in 1952 was announced at the time as Lieutenant Peter “Hoagy” Carmichael, the flight leader of a group of four fighters based on the [I]HMS Ocean[/I] aircraft carrier during the Korean War. He has gone down in history as the Royal Navy’s first and only ‘MiG Killer’ heralded for bringing down one of Pyongyang’s Russian-made jet fighters despite flying a significantly less advanced propeller-driven plane. However, research has now revealed that a modest young pilot, Sub-lieutenant Brian ‘Smoo” Ellis, then 21, was the man who downed the North Korean jet and the kill was wrongly awarded to his senior, apparently out of respect for military hierarchy. It was August 9 and British forces were part of a United Nations force engaged in fighting back a Communist invasion of South Korea. The British pilots’ mission had been simple. Check out the 19 bridges on the Pyongyang to Chinnampo railway line and see what progress the North Korean had made in repairing them. The dogfight occurred southwest of Pyongyang, when the four 802 Naval Air Squadron Hawker Sea Furies encountered eight enemy fighters in the much-vaunted MiG-15s. To Carmichael’s left was his wingman, Sub-Lieutenant Carl Haines, known as the sharpest eyes in the fleet, and to this right were lieutenant Peter “Toby” Davis and his young wingman, Sub-Lieutenant Ellis. “[I]It was Carl who spotted them first. He called ‘MiGs four o-clock high’. We always said that he had the best eyes in the Fleet[/I]’. Mr. Ellis, now living in Horsham, West Sussex, told The Times. “[I]There were eight of them and just four of us. “I saw a MiG get around behind me as if he wanted to dog fight. Big mistake; a jet can’t dogfight a Sea Fury[/I]”. What happened next has gone down in the Royal Navy’s history but not quite in the way it has always been portrayed. “[I]The MiG came in from behind and realised that he was going too fast. He put out his air brakes to slow but in doing so lost momentum and dropped into my gyro gun-sight[/I],” Mr Ellis added. “[I]I fired and even as he accelerated away, I kept firing until he started to smoke. I had no time to watch him go down as there was still a fight under way.[/I]” Mr Ellis, 86, is proud of his service in the Fleet Air Arm yet still modest of his achievements. Speaking decades later, the veteran 802 Squadron pilot Paddy McKeown said that “[I]everyone aboard the Ocean thought Hoagy had not engaged the enemy. Smoo certainly got a ‘smoker’ so imagine how we felt when the London Gazette published Hoagy’s award of the Distinguished Service Cross for the action which we all felt he did not deserve[/I].” It was the practice then in cases of uncertainty to give a quarter share of a kill to every pilot in the formation; sometimes this extended to the flight leader being awarded a combined kill and this is what happened here; not exactly great for morale. Many Sea Fury pilots were disappointed for Smoo Ellis, who kept his own counsel until this year when he was persuaded to confirm his side of the story. Carmichael, Haines and Davis have all died so now the true story can be told. [URL]https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dogfight-s-famous-kill-finally-credited-to-rightful-pilot-9q9wlbdtl[/URL]

I have never understood why extraordinarily brave men such as these would argue over who shot who down. What does it matter?

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