Admiral Sir Max Horton GCB DSO RN World Naval Ships Forums Archive

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Admiral Sir Max Horton GCB DSO RN World Naval Ships Forums Archive

Admiral Sir Max Horton GCB DSO RN

Posts 1 to 18

The Life and Times of Max Kennedy Horton (1881-1952). WW1 submariner and C in C Western Approaches in WW2. See link jaino31 [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Kennedy_Horton[/url]

i have an excellent biography of him published in the 1950s if you are interested i will dig it out and pass you the details, well worth a read, he was a hero of his time rather overlooked these days, probably a better strategist than ABC?? tim

Thank you very much Tim-I would appreciate details of his Biography.I do have a fair number of books written about Western Approaches Command ;mainly about Convoys and their Escorts,Uboats and Hunter/Killer Groups etc. My father served the first three yrears of WW2 in Western Approaches and the North Atlantic jainso31

[B][COLOR="Blue"]Admiral Sir Max Horton [/COLOR][/B] Here is the Obituary that appeared in The Times on 31st July 1951
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My attachement of the obituary to Admiral Sir Max Horton disappeared due to a problem we had with the server a little while ago so I am reposting it Published in The Times on 31st July 1951
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Here it a piece reporting Sir Max Horton's attack and sinking of the German Cruiser Hela Published in The Times on the 17th September 1914
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The King awarded a gallantry Medal for those that assisted the Steamer Delhi after grounding off Cape Spartel, Morocco on the 13th December 1911. The Delhi eventually sank. Here is a list of officers and men who were awarded the medal including Lt. Max Horton Published in The Times on the 12th June 1912
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I did wonder why the Port Captain of Gibraltar got the Silver Medal until I googled the ss Delhi and found he had more than done his bit to save life. It was a complicated rescue (made so by bad weather) which took 5 days to complete Geoff

Thanks for those posts Dave , a True Brit and worthy of the acclaim he held and the service he gave our country One wonders how many other Hero's are going to come to light during your return to our Forum ....your certainly not dragging your feet are you :)

In researching Horton for my book I have found out a few things about the subject of this thread ....I quote from Charles McCain ....He wasn’t the nicest man in the world, Sir Max. Ruthless, indifferent to anyone’s feelings, “as hard as nails and close as a clam.” A man so self absorbed he barely knew the names of his staff officers. A know it all. A driver. Aloof. Vain. Blunt to the point of rudeness. “…a staff officer reported that a certain cruiser had been lost, and that his son was on board. Horton instinctively replied, ‘Yes, but what happened to the ship?” If he had any friends, inside of the Royal Navy or out, no one knew who they were. Yet as a fighting admiral he was one of the best — bold and daring, inspiring those who served under him with his confidence, his knowledge, and his unshakeable belief in victory. In his outstanding memoir, Escort, Commander D.A. Rayner, RNVR, a very successful escort captain in Western Approaches Command and one of Horton’s favorites, writes: "…Max Horton’s own staff regarded him as something less than God but more than Man. If they had not done so they would have found themselves relieved. He had more personal charm than any man I ever met, but he could be unbelievably cruel to those who fell by the wayside". Horton did not enjoy playing the social games of the lords in the Admiralty and, therefore, ended up being disliked by the powerful members of the British Royal Navy. Furthermore, after his death in 1951, a dispute over Horton’s will arose between one of his many girlfriends and his brother. After the war it seems he instigated a number of Court Martials suspiciously one at least, the result was seemingly predetermined. I have read the book about him by Rear Admiral Chalmers .... no doubt the man did a fine job but personal relations and a later unnecessary vindictiveness leaves a sour taste.

I have long held a tinge of suspicion- that had Max Horton not been such a self seeker;he could have saved his ace Uboat killer's life. Captain F Walker was without doubt a driven man; and as such Horton should have seen this; and made him take a rest-his well trained subordinates and their teams would have "held the fort" until his return.What do you think???:o:confused: jainso31

[QUOTE=jainso31;10109117]I have long held a tinge of suspicion- that had Max Horton not been such a self seeker;he could have saved his ace Uboat killer's life. Captain F Walker was without doubt a driven man; and as such Horton should have seen this; and made him take a rest-his well trained subordinates and their teams would have "held the fort" until his return.What do you think???:o:confused: jainso31[/QUOTE] Walker does not seem to have been particularly poorly treated in that regard: he had sea-going commands during two periods during the war: 36th Escort Group, September 41-July 42 (10 months); and 2nd Support Group, March 43-July 44 (15 months). Compare that with other famous escort group commanders such as Peter Gretton (continuously at sea in command of destroyers, escort vessels and escort groups from January 1941 until May 44: 40 months); Donald Macintyre (held sea-going commands continuously from before the war until August 1944 - over 60 months); or Clive Gwinner (continuously at sea from March 1939 until June 1945, except for a two-month spell - 73 months).

I made no mention of Walker being "particularly poorly treated",nor did I compare him, in any way, to other Escort/Support Group commanders; that would have been foolish as all human beings have their particular frailties -I merely pointed out that as the man died in harness,as it were;perhaps his OC could have detected his war induced overstrain and done something about it.It was not intended as an indictment on Sir Max Horton-it was just an observation of mine. jainso31

I tend to agree that Horton could have pulled Walker out for a rest. Such seems to be the nature of the man he brooked no weakness in anyone. He was intent on winning the Battle and used everything to hand....by the time Walker died Horton had matters well in hand and should have been able to manage his manpower. But it is well covered that he didn't have that skill. The man managed himself somewhat in that he insisted he play a round of Golf every afternoon, without fail. Perhaps they did not manage stress at all until much later, Horton himself died of heart problems.

I checked with Sid Woods a close friend of many years who'd Dad commanded HMS Wren in Walkers group on this subject. Here is his reply which makes pretty good sense. Barnsey, I think that they were all ‘driven men’. Dad’s hair went totally white during the war and afterwards went back to being an iron grey. Dad never mentioned anything but I know he held both Walker & Horton in high regard. The attached is when Dad got his DSC at Holyrood in Edinburgh. You can see the strain in his face. I have another picture where he looks even more stressed, but can’t lay my hands on it. Don’t forget that Walker had his own axe to grind having also lost his son early in the war so he could also have been driven , at least somewhat by revenge.
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[QUOTE=jainso31;10109125]I made no mention of Walker being "particularly poorly treated",nor did I compare him, in any way, to other Escort/Support Group commanders; that would have been foolish as all human beings have their particular frailties -I merely pointed out that as the man died in harness,as it were;perhaps his OC could have detected his war induced overstrain and done something about it.It was not intended as an indictment on Sir Max Horton-it was just an observation of mine. jainso31[/QUOTE] Jim--did not mean offense! :) I was only trying to point out, in my clumsy way, that Walker did not seem to have been driven unreasonably hard compared with other Escort group commanders in terms of being kept a sea for prolonged periods. They were all driven men in incredibly stressful circumstances. Walker was 48 when he died in 1944, somewhat older than the others (e.g. that year Gretton was 32, Macintyre 40 and Gwinner 36-- nothing special about those three, they were just three Group Commanders I choose at random, as examples). Surely the Captain (D) at Liverpool, rather than Horton, would have been the officer responsible for relieving commanding officers who were working themselves to death, rather than Horton himself, who presumably had other concerns?

Good Morning Daniel-no offence taken I can assure you.My post was merely an observation.I was interested to see you mention a Captain (D). In Robertson's "Walker RN" he makes mention where Walker made direct contact with his CinC over matters of policy in 1944-so I really don't know whether there was a Captain (D) in this instance; but I would have to agree that an officer between Horton and his immediate commands at sea makes sense. jainso31

Thank you David for all the background detail that you have provided-I do believe that those ship captains working in Walker's Support Group would, without doubt be as driven as Walker himself-so intent was he (Walker) on the destruction of Uboats-it had become a Crusade.Thank you for the photograph of your father which clearly shows the immense strain he had been working under-Walker was a hard task master,particularly in the fight with U473, which involved HMS Wren on 6th May 1944. jainso31

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