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HMS Vanguard 1944-1960 - World Naval Ships Forums Archive (Page 6)


HMS Vanguard 1944-1960 (Page 6)


Posts 251 to 300


[QUOTE=Choppy Sea;10050971]Can anyone remember the signing off tune at lights-out at the end of record requests. Went something like:- Dream when you're feeling blue Dream that's the thing to do Dreams never are as bad as they seem So dream, dream, dream. I will always remember that tune. Ray H[/QUOTE] Dream written by Johnny Mercer sung by Frank Sinatra and many others. Plenty of versions on ITunes and YouTube. IF you have Mozilla FIrefox you can download from YouTube. Cheers Bruce

The Vanguard was the most beautiful sight, except when viewed from a Montague whaler while under sailing instruction in Portsmouth Harbour. Picture the scene, summer of 1953; I was on the tiller during a race involving all the whalers and cutters from H.M.S. St Vincent when by chance the Vanguard entered harbour right in the middle of the event. Being rather overzealous I thought I could get across the harbour in front of her and thereby win the race, as all the other boats would have to wait until she had passed. I shouted "Steam gives way to sail", told you I was overzealous. At that very moment, about six heads appeared over the guardrail and uttered words I did not understand, (I had only been in the Navy six months,) and at the same time my Instructor gave me a shove forward and turned the boat away from the bows when we were about thirty feet from disaster. The race was stopped and I did not get my Cox’s badge. (I had learnt to sail with the Sea Scouts in Torbay, There we did not have to contend with any competion while sailing around the bay.) The irony of that day was that at the end of the year while we all went off to the training aircraft carrier H.M.S. Indefatigable, the Instructor became the Chief Bosun's Mate on the Vanguard, he was Chief Petty Officer Gossage, as any of the Forum who served on her in 1954 may have come across him will remember. During the spring cruise of 1954 the “Home Fleet” sailed to Gibraltar,Vanguard was the flag ship with both the training carriers for the trip out to Gibraltar. We met some rough sea crossing the Bay of Biscay and the sight of the Vanguard taking a good twenty seconds to roll from one side to the other can only be believed if you were there. I was fortunate if that is the right word; to be in Portsmouth when she went aground and the incident upset the whole population of the city and far beyond.That was not the end such a work of art deserved. Imagine her moored in theThames below Greenwich. The Belfast is a major attraction in the centre of London; just think what Vanguard would have added to the Olympic Games images. Philip..

I certainly remember "Dream" it was broadcast at pipe down. I heard it during 1950, I remember it now & always will.

After summer leave Vanguard left Portsmouth in September 1953 for Invergordon, which appeared to have become our northen base. Later in the month we met up with other ships of the Home Fleet and together with elements of the American Fleet, including the battleship USS Iowa, held a NATO exercise called 'Mariner'. The weather we experienced out in the Atlantic and the Denmark Strait was atrocious. Strange as it may seem , I felt quite alright in the roughest of seas but once in calmer waters the gentle roll would upset my stomach. The trouble with Vanguard was that it was so big it would take a considerable time to stop rolling. It was here that Vanguard proved herself. During the exercise she was the only ship that could travel at speed through the rough seas and her performance at this was better than that of the Iowa. After travelling some 800 miles north of John O'Groats we anchored at Greenock on 3 October 1953 at the end of the exercise. A few days later we sailed to Invergordon and then to Portland. Two days later we steamed home to Portsmouth. jainso31 [url]http://battleshiphmsvanguard.homestead.com/19534.html[/url]

Quite correct regarding the seaworthiness of Vanguard as compared to her American cousin in the Atlantic swells. The Iowa's long narrow bow, optimized for speed and Pacific conditions, did not do well at high speeds in the Atlantic as the bow would tend to start twisting in the waves, not a good thing for bows to do, whereas Vanguard with her sheer and heavier bow form had no problem at all in comparison. Strangely, I read somewhere that after the war tank tests showed that had the Iowa's gone with a bow more like Vanguard's (with allowances for length, of course) they probably would have made the same top speed anyway.

[QUOTE=Don Boyer;10067991]Quite correct regarding the seaworthiness of Vanguard as compared to her American cousin in the Atlantic swells. The Iowa's long narrow bow, optimized for speed and Pacific conditions, did not do well at high speeds in the Atlantic as the bow would tend to start twisting in the waves, not a good thing for bows to do, whereas Vanguard with her sheer and heavier bow form had no problem at all in comparison. Strangely, I read somewhere that after the war tank tests showed that had the Iowa's gone with a bow more like Vanguard's (with allowances for length, of course) they probably would have made the same top speed anyway.[/QUOTE] Don, you may be right on that point but it always seemed to me that the Iowa long bow shape was really a waste. All that forward length but no volume. Perhaps the Vanguard shape or a longer North Carolina 850 ft hull would have realised the same top speed and better foul weather behaviour.

Quite right, Cadillac -- although I would have not quite gone as far as to call it a waste, it was certainly not optimal as only experience at sea would have pointed out, really. The Iowa's had a much longer parallel midships section than the other fast battleships, which did much to counter the somewhat light bow. Had the bulbous bow been invented in time, along with a better bow shape, the Iowa's would probably have been superb seaboats, fully on par with Vanguard, but that's of course after the fact thinking.

I don't know how Vanguard compares with USN battleships but I do know that in Vanguard we were heading up the Irish Sea & did a RAS with a destroyer, I was on the foc'stle in white front & blue bell bottoms. The destroyers men on its Foc'stle were wearing oil skins & getting wet.

just found this in my "Malins files" which will be in the new eBook on Captain Malins memories....... My father was assigned to Vanguard as No.1 to bring her out of reserve and back into service, but saved at the last minute when it was decided by the Govt to scrap her instead.
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Tim: So what was the idea to bring Vanguard out of reserve? Brian

I was only 9 years old at the time so need to refer to "the book" which only makes scant reference to this; i attach it for you here but you only need to read the first paragraphs re Vanguard.......with the decision to scrap her he went instead to Corunna to take over when Coruna's captain needed to take emergency leave.
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Tim: Thanks for the chapter. Your father certainly had an interesting career. His missing an opportunity in Vanguard was probably a good thing! Brian

you are welcome to the whole book if you would like it Brian, i promised a freee copy to everyone in the forum, just send me a pm with your regular email and i will send you the book plus the little free reader programme you will need. all best tim

With acknowledgements to spursnut and the Ships Nostalgia website, below is apparently a photo of a chopper landing on Vanguard. Bert.
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[QUOTE=PhilMeds;10061347]The Vanguard was the most beautiful sight, except when viewed from a Montague whaler while under sailing instruction in Portsmouth Harbour. Picture the scene, summer of 1953; I was on the tiller during a race involving all the whalers and cutters from H.M.S. St Vincent when by chance the Vanguard entered harbour right in the middle of the event. Being rather overzealous I thought I could get across the harbour in front of her and thereby win the race, as all the other boats would have to wait until she had passed. I shouted "Steam gives way to sail", told you I was overzealous. At that very moment, about six heads appeared over the guardrail and uttered words I did not understand, (I had only been in the Navy six months,) and at the same time my Instructor gave me a shove forward and turned the boat away from the bows when we were about thirty feet from disaster. The race was stopped and I did not get my Cox’s badge. (I had learnt to sail with the Sea Scouts in Torbay, There we did not have to contend with any competion while sailing around the bay.) The irony of that day was that at the end of the year while we all went off to the training aircraft carrier H.M.S. Indefatigable, the Instructor became the Chief Bosun's Mate on the Vanguard, he was Chief Petty Officer Gossage, as any of the Forum who served on her in 1954 may have come across him will remember. During the spring cruise of 1954 the “Home Fleet” sailed to Gibraltar,Vanguard was the flag ship with both the training carriers for the trip out to Gibraltar. We met some rough sea crossing the Bay of Biscay and the sight of the Vanguard taking a good twenty seconds to roll from one side to the other can only be believed if you were there. I was fortunate if that is the right word; to be in Portsmouth when she went aground and the incident upset the whole population of the city and far beyond.That was not the end such a work of art deserved. Imagine her moored in theThames below Greenwich. The Belfast is a major attraction in the centre of London; just think what Vanguard would have added to the Olympic Games images. Philip..[/QUOTE] Phil, The Olympic committee would have probably air brushed Vanguard out just like they did with Belfast.

Vanguard should be regarded as the icing on the Battleship cake. She was fast, carried lethal weaponry & was beautiful to look at. She had many benefits for the crew, good messing with dining spaces,a superb laundry, she even had tiered seating for watching films.

Was Vanguard's main armament not from a bygone age and was it a blessing that they did not have to be used in action.

[QUOTE=johnny07;10076288]Was Vanguard's main armament not from a bygone age and was it a blessing that they did not have to be used in action.[/QUOTE] HMS Vanguard, was fitted with eight 15-inch Mk I guns. Her guns were thought to have come from Courageous but in fact her gun log showed that her guns came from: Queen Elizabeth and Ramillies (two each), and one each from Warspite, Royal Sovereign, Resolution, and the monitor Erebus.

That's quite a mix and they were all probably in varying states of decline, some even worn out from Jutland. I think the answer to my second question would be yes. Pre WW1 guns in a post WW2 ship seems strange.

Further to post #264 is another picture of a helicopter landing, Bert.
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VANGUARD's guns, as has been stated, were originally fitted in several previous ships; normal practice with heavy guns, once they had fired a given number of rounds (actually measured by the number of "effective full charges" fired), which wore the rifling down to a point where the gun became too inaccurate, the gun would be replaced, and the worn gun returned to an ordnance factory for relining, after which it would be either kept in store to replace another worn-out one elsewhere later, or fitted into the turret of a new or refitting ship. Thus VANGUARD's weapons were fitted into refurbished turrets, which were considered the best heavy guns and mountings fitted to any RN ship. Tim

[quote=bert-261;10076591]Further to post #264 is another picture of a helicopter landing, Bert.[/quote] Strewth - a bit tight for helicopter landing space!?

I think I would have been very nervous if I was the man with the flags! Health and safety bods would have a coronary these days!

I attach a photo of the Vanguard nameboard. It is 14 feet long, the letters were recovered by Tom Ferrers Walker when she was scrapped and spent 30 years in the Royal Navy Museum in Portsmouth before the collection was sold. I re-mounted them on a new board last year, it all weighs a ton! Compared to other boards on the wall it is huge. Freddy
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Well done Freddy' A magnificent recovery.

The Vanguards' refurbished 15" 42s and turrets are considered to be the finest heavy gun the RN ever put to sea. However, from what I've read, only 2 of her turrets were operational. Also, only some of her 5.25" were functional...all to reduce manning costs. That was the same rationale used for the post war completed Jean Bart, too. Despite that, both were very handsome 3rd generation battleships; but completed to late to be of operational use. DFO :(

Yes but what we wanted were not handsome ships viz a viz Hood but ships that could fight. Given Vanguards generic armament set up how would she have fared in a fight. Having said that who was there to fight against her?

Actually, that was the problem. By 1960 Battleships were considered good only for shore bombardment and "showing the flag". The first use taken over by the jet bomber or missle and the second taken over by the Aircraft carrier. I frankly believe that not only Vanguard but the KGV's should not have been scrapped. Each Battleship could have been attatched to a task force (Aircraft carrier, Crusier, Frigate, ect) which would have given a greater conventional strength to the force not to mention the Flagship capabillities with communications ect. Just as I felt that the North Carolinas and South Dakotas should not have been discarded. Unfortunatly by 1960 defence budgets in the UK and America were fighting for the new "wonder weapons" (missles, Nuke submarines, ect.) Battleships were considered passe due to their limited uses, that and the fact that they were manpower intensive didn't help to keep them around. It would take another 20 yrs after 1960 to see the reuse of the Battleships with the introduction of cruise missles on the Iowa class. Thus the Iowas then became multi-functional. It is interesting to note that when the Iowas were brought back into service there were no weapons available except nucular able to defeat them. (The idea being that once you use a nucular tipped [I]anything[/I] all bets are off.) Imagine what could have been done with Vanguard if she had been kept till 1980. Same goes for the KGV's. Alas we'll never know.

Cadillac 811: Technology has been the saviour of the B52 bomber, the Iowa Class BB, the M113 APC's and many other weapons systems as well as civilian assets. The problem is the ability, or lack of the ability, to accurately foresee the future and to identify what assets are worthy of retention. The USN got one more commission out of the Iowas, and that was useful for them but the large crews sealed the fate of that class. Brian

[QUOTE=designeraccd;10076785]The Vanguards' refurbished 15" 42s and turrets are considered to be the finest heavy gun the RN ever put to sea. However, from what I've read, only 2 of her turrets were operational. Also, only some of her 5.25" were functional...all to reduce manning costs. That was the same rationale used for the post war completed Jean Bart, too. Despite that, both were very handsome 3rd generation battleships; but completed to late to be of operational use. DFO :([/QUOTE] Absolutely right [B]Designeraccd[/B]! The British 15-inch gun was certainly one of the finest ever built. They were Churchill’s big gamble when he authorised brand new, completely untested, massive guns for the five new [I]Queen Elizabeth[/I] class battleships before even the earlier 13.5-inch guns had been tested at sea. Churchill, newly arrived at the Admiralty as First Lord, was determined to out build and out gun the German Dreadnoughts building at the time and took the huge risk, which fortunately resulted in the finest ships and guns in the Royal Navy. The Queen Elizabeths ([I]Barham, Valiant, Warspite and Malaya[/I]) were at sea in time to save Beatty at Jutland, though [I]Queen Elizabeth [/I]herself was not at Jutland.

[QUOTE=johnny07;10076788] Having said that who was there to fight against her?[/QUOTE] I always understood that Vanguard was kept in commission as a counter to the Sverdlov Class Soviet Cruisers, that in the mid 1950s the Fleet Air Arm would have had problems dealing with. With the advent of the Buccaneer with its anti ship role, I assume that the view was taken that the RN could deal with the Sverdlov's without a Battleship.

[QUOTE=PhilipG;10077039]I always understood that Vanguard was kept in commission as a counter to the Sverdlov Class Soviet Cruisers, that in the mid 1950s the Fleet Air Arm would have had problems dealing with. With the advent of the Buccaneer with its anti ship role, I assume that the view was taken that the RN could deal with the Sverdlov's without a Battleship.[/QUOTE] Yes Red Beard, Britain’s second generation A-bomb, was developed in the 1950s for both RAF and FAA strike as a tactical nuclear strike weapon against the Sverdlovs and other naval targets. The Joint Staff requirement was issued in 1953 with an in-service date of 1957. Prior to the arrival of Staff requirement NA 39 (the Buccaneer) the Scimitar became the first FAA aircraft, followed by the Sea Vixen. Five Fleet Carriers were ‘nuclear capable’ but the weapon was not out-loaded until 1960 (to Hermes for a FE deployment). Vanguard then went for scrap in that year.

There was, therefore, an actual transition from battleship to nuclear equipped naval aircraft and aircraft carriers. Brian

Here are the first few pages of The Vanguard Daily News from 1953. In Captain Ewing's foreward, he mentions sinking the Raider. Would that be HMS Raider or a practice target… Or perhaps just an excerise on paper?
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The destroyer Hms Raider wasn't used as a target ship she was transferred to the Indian navy and then scrapped.

Some details of Exercise MARINER can be found in the November 1953 edition of [I]The Naval Review[/I] page 365 [I]et seq[/I], available online at [url]http://www.naval-review.co.uk/issues/1953-4.pdf[/url]. The "raider" was simulated by HMS SWIFTSURE; she was eventually detected by a Skyraider AEW aircraft from HMS EAGLE and intercepted by VANGUARD. Unfortunately, the next day SWIFTSURE collided with HMS DIAMOND; the damage was such that SWIFTSURE was never fully operational again. Tim

Thanks for your replies - the Naval Review is very interesting reading!

Another picture of Vanguard coming alongside, and one of a hoisting party, both courtesy of military photos.net. Regards, Bert.
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[QUOTE=bert-261;10106282]Another picture of Vanguard coming alongside, and one of a hoisting party, both courtesy of military photos.net. Regards, Bert.[/QUOTE] Will we ever forget "Haul taught singly" - "Marry the falls" Chris

You can "just" make out the davits ,on the very right of the image, There must have been a hell of a lot of "boat rope " to pull in , considering the height the upper scupper was from the hogging. No wonder the "buffer " required " tom ,dick and harry ,to haul it up .....nice shoes ..;) cylla

[QUOTE=bert-261;10106282]Another picture of Vanguard coming alongside, and one of a hoisting party, both courtesy of military photos.net. Regards, Bert.[/QUOTE] Can I respectfully remind members posting only ship photographs to check that they haven't been posted already and, if not, post them in the respective section in the photo gallery. HMS Vanguard has her own gallery [url]http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2142&highlight=Vanguard[/url] where, at least one, of these photos already appear. Jim [url]http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10051455&postcount=122[/url]

One of us needs a new pair of glasses Jim, as before I posted my pictures I checked every page of the thread and though there were one or two similar shots I firmly believed the coming alongside to be a new one. If I cocked up, apologies but it wasn't due to lack of diligence. Regards, Bert. p.s. Checked this thread Jim, completely forgot the photos thread. Hit the big 64 last week. That might have something to do with it. p.p.s. It's me needs the glasses Jim, just been through the gallery and ooops.

[QUOTE=bert-261;10106282]Another picture of Vanguard coming alongside, and one of a hoisting party, both courtesy of military photos.net. Regards, Bert.[/QUOTE] Bert, she is not coming alongside as she is either at anchor or moored to a bouy, the accommodation ladder is rigged and the boat booms in situ, clear lower deck maybe for a review of sorts, Alan

Much obliged for that A & B, perhaps I'm more in need of those new glasses that I mentioned than I thought. The clues that you mention just couldn't have been clearer. Must try harder in future. Regards to you both, Bert.

[QUOTE=bert-261;10106282]Another picture of Vanguard coming alongside, and one of a hoisting party, both courtesy of military photos.net. Regards, Bert.[/QUOTE] Thanks for the pictures, Bert. They are much appreciated by me, at least; and thank you for the time you give to posting them for us to enjoy. Keep it up, mate!

Appreciated Andy, Regards, Bert.

Not sure if this one has been posted previously but I had not seen it before today. Thanks to Stevo in Portsmouth for letting me use it.
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I have previously posted a thread about my visit onboard Vanguard in at Plymouth Navy Days 1950, with the Navy Days programme and the ships present. Interesting nostalgic material! I doubt that the system would allow me to duplicate the pictures but you can see them at [url]http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10972&highlight=days[/url] Best wishes

I was in Vanguard, May to August 1950. Joined her in Portland to qualify for my Auxiliary Watchkeeping Certificate. Two days after joining her we sailed for Devonport, external cleaning one funnel & boilers. I remember we visited Torquay, Fort William, the Clyde, Bangor NI, Cowes IOW for the Royal Sailing regatta. I may have that lot in the wrong order , it was 65 years ago.

[QUOTE=oldsalt;10132697]I was in Vanguard, May to August 1950. Joined her in Portland to qualify for my Auxiliary Watchkeeping Certificate. Two days after joining her we sailed for Devonport, external cleaning one funnel & boilers. I remember we visited Torquay, Fort William, the Clyde, Bangor NI, Cowes IOW for the Royal Sailing regatta. I may have that lot in the wrong order , it was 65 years ago.[/QUOTE] Yes Keith I was on the same trip, was not Ballachullish also part of that cruise? Ray H




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