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Naval Uniforms - World Naval Ships Forums Archive (Page 3)

Naval Uniforms (Page 3)

Posts 101 to 150

Same here in Smiff. They toodle between the "Naval Base" (no longer a Dockyard) and Barracks in their Noz 8s (or whatever number they are now), hands in pockets, or mobile phone stuck to their lug. All the while, their headgear is either in a pocket of their "Cargo Pants", or pulled through an epaulette. Scruffy buggers that seem to lack the pride and purpose of those from an era not so very long ago. Downtown it's the same. I blame the Government, but then I would.

Only today I saw a Midshipman wearing No.8s and steaming boots, no cap or beret - and yes he had a phone stuck to his ear......where was he? - Cascades shopping centre in Portsmouth! Fairlead

on the other hand.. three weeks ago in Doncaster Exchange Bus Station I saw a very smart matelot in blue trousers and what looked like a sea jersey with [B][I]Royal Navy [/I][/B]eppulettes rig No ? and complete with blue holdall. Didn't have time to exchange hello's but he did look the part. Still confused what rate/rank he might have been Little h

nother sighting today in Plymouth, a female sailor (sailoress?) in working rig, wearing beret & pushing a pram! I think we should have a points reward scheme for the strangest in uniorm sighting. I'm sorry if this seems sexist but I can' imagine four female sailors heaving a portable pump , through bulhead doors & up & down ladders. :confused::confused::eek:

Keith I don't believe that you are being sexist. It is a well known fact that during training, anything physical, females are treated different with a lower passmark required or lower workload. In fact, I think that the establishment is more sexist against men for allowing this!!!!!

Agree. As for the SWIT (Sailor With T*ts). Just stand outside the Portsea Sure Start Centre at clocking-in time, and you will see quite a few wheeling in their little princes, and princesses for the day. This is of course 45 minutes after everyone else has turned-to.

Question??? Do female sailors with children get preferential treatment for shoretime. If they do, are the men left at sea longer?

[QUOTE=qprdave;58092]Question??? Do female sailors with children get preferential treatment for shoretime. If they do, are the men left at sea longer?[/QUOTE] Answer to the first; an unequivocal yes. My oldest daughter did twelve and inadvertently told me a couple of tales. One about a "girl" who just kept getting pregnant. Lots of maternity leave, full pay, no sea time. As to the second, don't know. But then again, it's hard to tell which are the men these days.

[QUOTE=Jan Steer;56941]Almost as silly as seeing the present day female sailors in sailor suits!! best wishes Jan[/QUOTE] why? my neighbour's neice lokks very smart in hers. I can't see the problem

Chris thankyou for your comment. I guess it is all down to a matter of personal opinion. The wonderful thing about living in a democracy is the fact that we are all at liberty to state that opinion even if we don't happen to agree with the other chap's. I served at a time when our girls joined the WRNS (Womens Royal Naval Service) not the navy; were subject to their own regulations and did not serve at sea. They dressed and looked like women and as a "sparker" (radio operator) I got to work with many when serving ashore. I loved our girls. So much so in fact that I married one! I am not a part of the modern navy and (again it is my personal opinion being stated here) I think that the women look incongruous and faintly ridiculous in sailors suits that were very obviously originally designed for men. I don't have a problem with the girls being at sea; that is for others better placed to judge to discuss, but I much prefer women to look like women. Am I alone I wonder? best wishes Jan

I agree with you Jan. Sending girls to sea is all to do about being "Politically Correct" I am all for equal pay for women. But I feel that women who just wear the same uniform and do the same watches is not enough. I am sure that they are unable to carry out some work that is expected of men. Look back to an answer Post #95. With all the cut backs, there must be fewer and fewer shore jobs and when a girl does something like this and remains ashore then someone on a ship is denied that posting. To me, getting pregnant is not a disease...It is voluntary. Why should she be held any different to men and many of the responsible girls that are serving on our ships! Where is the equality there? Because these over zealous women's rights campaigners are getting there own way. It is only a matter of time when there will be an equal rights campaign for men!!!!! Jan, You mentioned the WRNS. When they got pregnant, Didn't they have to resign from the service? What year was it that it was decided that a baby didn't need a full time Mother?

The uniforms pages on the official Royal Navy website are appalling - how anyone would want to join if you looked like some of the personnel in those photos - horrifying! The women naval officers' rig doesn't look flattering, especially compared to that in the United States Navy. Simon

[QUOTE=spruso;57262]Very interesting thread. My dad (RAN WW2) used to put the "wave" in his cap by bending it somehow on his knee. Couldn't be seen with a flat cap. He reckoned you could tell the "Poms" by their "Flat caps". Cheers Bruce[/QUOTE] not a chance and I've got the pics to prove it!

I agree Chris We all used to do it. Something that they didn't agree with for Divisions though The nearest I have been to being an Ozzy Matelot was a weeks visit to Fremantle on the Naiad!!!!!!

[QUOTE=Jan Steer;58249]Chris thankyou for your comment. I guess it is all down to a matter of personal opinion. The wonderful thing about living in a democracy is the fact that we are all at liberty to state that opinion even if we don't happen to agree with the other chap's. I served at a time when our girls joined the WRNS (Womens Royal Naval Service) not the navy; were subject to their own regulations and did not serve at sea. They dressed and looked like women and as a "sparker" (radio operator) I got to work with many when serving ashore. I loved our girls. So much so in fact that I married one! I am not a part of the modern navy and (again it is my personal opinion being stated here) I think that the women look incongruous and faintly ridiculous in sailors suits that were very obviously originally designed for men. I don't have a problem with the girls being at sea; that is for others better placed to judge to discuss, but I much prefer women to look like women. Am I alone I wonder? best wishes Jan[/QUOTE] absolutely bang on. 'looking like woman' is open(thankfully) to a pretty wide interpretetation, and that goes for looking like a man. Thirty odd years ago my hair was waist length. my neighbour's neice srves on one of the new bay class RFAs as part of the naval contingent. She enjoys it and she says there are no complaints about her work. I'm not sure about what's meant by 'man's work', someone mentioned about women sailors not being able to haul a poretable pump up a ladder-I'm guessing that there are male sailors who coiuldn't as well. Horses for courses IMHO. I think this forum is great.

[QUOTE=qprdave;58261]I agree Chris We all used to do it. Something that they didn't agree with for Divisions though The nearest I have been to being an Ozzy Matelot was a weeks visit to Fremantle on the Naiad!!!!!![/QUOTE] I have a pic of my dad and the entire crtew of the defender including dog taken at HMS Nile after her loss-every matelot had a bow wave! My neighbour Pete who's beice I've been on about served in Hermes, Jupiter and Panther in the late 60s seventies. Everything that everybody says on here about their uniforms he'stold me about! His name's Pete Smith in case anyone knew him and he's a top bloke.

Hi Shipmates. I left regular RN in 1969. Gave it a few years with my wife and young children, then joined the RNXS a civilian branch of the RN, later becoming part of the reserve forces. My Role in the RNXS was an instructor in naval communications (voice procedure, flag recognition, morse flashing light, message handling, teleprinter operations) we had a multi mixture of sex's, ages, single or married, our seagoing branch was made up of both male and female, seaman,engineering,communications. We all had a role to play in the operational efficiency of the vessel. Gender did not come into the equation, perhaps we were a bit older and a bit more responsible. I cannot remember anything untoward happening onboard our vessels. During my survice in the RNXS, prior to the introduction to females being allowed as a serving members of a ships crew, I was interviewed by RN personell dept from MOD(n) probable because of my previous service as regular navy. I made my feelings felt, I considered that the female involvement in the running of an RN vessel would be detremental to the efficient running of a vessel in combat conditions, and to what effect this would be on the wifes of those males serving in said ships. I must point out that like other members contributing to this thread, I have nothing but kindness to the WRNS who served with us communications departments ratings in many home and foreign stations, BUT I think the decision to allow the opposite sex onto a fighting machine to be detrimental to the Royal Navy. Call me an old fuddy duddy, but this is my opion agree or not. Thats me off the soap box Derek (bunts)

My eldest was one of the first WREN ROs to go to sea (Fearless and Southampton). Onboard she wore noz eights like everyone else, but still kept her ladylike uniform for other purposes. The Yanks even dress their women as, well women, instead of looking like the cast of some Comic Opera.......

[QUOTE=chris westwood;58264]I have a pic of my dad and the entire crtew of the defender including dog taken at HMS Nile after her loss-every matelot had a bow wave! My neighbour Pete who's beice I've been on about served in Hermes, Jupiter and Panther in the late 60s seventies. Everything that everybody says on here about their uniforms he'stold me about! His name's Pete Smith in case anyone knew him and he's a top bloke.[/QUOTE] Probably borrowed Oz caps mate! Seriously though - I've never noticed any photos of RAN WW2 blokes with flat caps but seen plenty of RN "flat tops" Why is this? This raises two more questions. When did both navies stop using the "wave" and why? And also, why black caps in the RN and not the RAN? I wonder what would happen today if you turned up on parade with a wavy cap. Probably get sent to sit on the "naughty chair" for 10 minutes. Cheers Bruce

I think during years gone by the best suit a serviceman had , was probably his uniform. Because of this he probably wore it more then they do now. These days their best uniforms are hardly used, therefore their caps always look as if they've just came out of Gieves and Hawks. Alot of ww2 serviceman got married in their uniforms because they couldn't afford civilian suits. Kevin.

You have a point there. I loved to wear my run-ashore suit whenever I got the chance. We always had to go on draft in uniform too as I recall. Red badges if I'm not mistaken. I remember crossing London once by tube and whilst waiting on the platform an old lady asked, "Can I touch your collar for luck Jack?" Well, we were all used to that. "Of course you can" I said and leant forward for her to reach. "My dad was in the navy in the first war," she said, "and when I was a little girl and we saw a sailor my mother used to tell us to go and touch their collars for luck and to bring dad home safe. He never made it." I thought that was so sad and I've remembered that yarn all my life. When the IRA was active on the mainland and terrorism generally was on the increase we were stopped from wearing our uniforms ashore in this country as it made us easily identifiable and targets of course. Great shame but necessary. Best wishes Jan

Hi Derek, Concur every word you say. I worked with many Wren Communicators on many stations ashore and I found them in many cases to have the edge on the Male counterparts. Never had them at sea because I left in '77 but have never been convinced of the "equality" bit when it comes to the front line ..... I am old fashioned enough to still believe that chivalry is still alive and that in that dire emergency situation most guys would still offer the helping hand to the female when they should really be thinking "One hand for the Queen and the other is for me", or has thinking moved on leaving us old hands behind?? Dave H [Sparks]

Hi Dave, I agree with you that the fair sex should be appreciated, Ive been married to mine for 45 years, I think now is the time for the younger ladies to give up her seat on the bus for me. Derek (bunts)

I'm sure I read somewhere that in the 1970's the yanks tried to do away with the sailor rig and put everyone in PO uniforms. Can anyone remember this. Kevin.

[QUOTE=Kevin123;58366]I think during years gone by the best suit a serviceman had , was probably his uniform. Because of this he probably wore it more then they do now. These days their best uniforms are hardly used, therefore their caps always look as if they've just came out of Gieves and Hawks. Alot of ww2 serviceman got married in their uniforms because they couldn't afford civilian suits. Kevin.[/QUOTE] Although it was'nt during the war I got married in uniform (with the long white tapes) because everybody expected me to & because I was proud of my uniform. Just a small question , where do they stow all the civvy & uniform clothes ?

[QUOTE=Kevin123;58475]I'm sure I read somewhere that in the 1970's the yanks tried to do away with the sailor rig and put everyone in PO uniforms. Can anyone remember this. Kevin.[/QUOTE] Yep, remember that. Spoke to a couple in a bar, and they did not like the idea. In fact, it proved so unpopular that they reintroduced their "Fore and Aft" rig with the Baby's Sun Hat.

[QUOTE=TrotOneLower;58485]Yep, remember that. Spoke to a couple in a bar, and they did not like the idea. In fact, it proved so unpopular that they reintroduced their "Fore and Aft" rig with the Baby's Sun Hat.[/QUOTE] Hello Trotonelower, I just looked it up, and it was in 1973. Apparently it was because they didn't think the sailors rig served any purpose in the modern navy. As you said it proved unpopular with the people who actually wore it. Did you see any of those new uniforms. Kevin.

[QUOTE=oldsalt;58483]Although it was'nt during the war I got married in uniform (with the long white tapes) because everybody expected me to & because I was proud of my uniform. Just a small question , where do they stow all the civvy & uniform clothes ?[/QUOTE] Hello Keith, Sorry if my post annoyed you. Most of what I write is what I've been told by service veterans. A lot of people I've met were from the poorer areas of Portsea and around the Romsey area. All of them were no doubt very proud of their uniforms, but at that time a lot of them, certainly the ones I've helped over the years hardly had anything decent to their names. Thanks for your reply. Kevin.

Here is one to get you all thinking and digging out information.... We RN were all (yes even Officer Cadets) at one time issued with a LANYARD (Knife for the use of?) A nice soft cotton three strand cord with a running Turk's Head to adjust the size of the neck loop and a fixed one at the business end. Washed with care, hung to dry supporting a bucket of water to make it thinner for our 'tiddly' uniform - Worn on divisions with nothing on the end or sometimes around the waist with a 'pussers dirk' safely tucked away in the trouser pocket. WHY did the lanyard become an item of uniform? My theory is that its use for a Bosun's Call (we can discuss chains here too), Knife, or decoration (or the office keys) is relatively modern and before that it was used to safely use and carry a tool especially when working aloft - Over to you Fairlead

Hello Fairlead, Did they stop issuing lanyards during WW2. My grandad still wore his from his previous service. Kevin.

This might sound silly, but during liferaft training we were told the reason a sailor wears a lanyard and a knife is because if he fell overboard in the old days, he could cut off his bootlaces and get rid of his boots PDQ . Kevin.

Hi Kevin, I have a 1943 copy of "A Seaman's Pocket Book" which shows 2 lanyards laid out in a kit muster and a note which says "The knot of the lanyard must be 3" above the tapes. The bight of the lanyard under the silk must not hang down too low." Fairlead

Still issued now as part of noz 1s. Only today they just get one. We were issued with two, a practical thick one, and a tidier thinner version to go with tiddly suit. Or did I get that one from the Naval Jailer? Anyway, we were issued with two, but only "seaman" types were issued with the knife. The origin of the lanyard was as a pull chord for firing the guns. What I was told anyway. In the same way that the silk was a standardised colour for sweat bands.

I have a quick question on medal ribbons. I'm confused because there seems to be many ways of wearing the ribbons. Do officers and enlisted have separate practices? I'm trying to work out how a CPO in WW2 would wear his.
Attachments :

I'm not sure if this helps in anyway but I believe that campaign medals come before general service medals and that these come before long service medals. Thats how they run in my family from before the first world war and up to and including my own. best wishes jan

Thanks Jan. I understand the order it's the grouping I'm confused with. Top left is in rows or 3's, why isn't the top right one? The bottom right is in groups of 2's, why?

On the topic of uniforms and in particular their upkeep, there is one thing in old age and fading memory, that always comes back to me! those creases in your trousers! and the shenanigans of getting them there! "Jan" made mention to the "five or seven razor sharp creases". If I remember rightly, to obtain these the trousers were turned inside out first, I always used a thin book to maintain them in parallel. What made me bring this up, was uniform inspections. You were required to to turn up the bottoms if it was suspected that "SOAP" had been used on the inside to sharpen up the crease, the tell tail white marks would be only too obvious. You were for the high jump if it were discovered. Any support used in your Cap Tally bow (old penny) noted, was equally frowned upon. Whilst on the subject of caps a liberal coat of "Blanko" was the accepted method of keeping it white. Incidentally, I never did find out what the significance of those trouser creases represented. Anyone shed light to this??? Bob William Green

Bob clearly you go back further than me as I don't remember blancoing my cap, they were white plastic in my time and needed a regular scrubbing with brush, water and "dhoby dust". The trouser creases, if I remember correctly, were paybook size apart but as to why we had them I've no idea. I was told that 'seven' paid homage to the seven seas and 'five' to the oceans. A nice idea but I'm not sure that there is any truth in it. There was nobody smarter than a matelot in rig but sadly, in my opinion, those days are long gone. best wishes Jan

Agree, nothing smarter than a matelot in the "old" rig. As for the creases; this again came down to standardisation. Not too sure on the height qualifier, but I think it was under 5'6" (or maybe 5'4") and you had five creases. Over, and it was seven. It apparently made them easier to stow before the days of ample storage. Some even said that tightly folded and tied with a lanyard, and they would float. Never tried it, but I don't they would have supported me!

Don`t know about making you float...But when we took our swimming test you had to wear a uniform..We were in tropical white full rig. Nothing under it..Then swim a couple of lengths and float around for a couple of minutes or so...I found the trousers slipping off and had a bit of difficulty pulling them up whilst floating around. Still passed though.

Re creases: in the days when we still slept in hammocks, trousers folded up and a jumper rolled up formed a pillow. Arctic routine - hammock slung with No 3s at head end; pusser's blanket laid over and pressed down against kapok mattress. Insert body and fold blanket over giving two layers over body followed by spare hammock pulled up to nose. Snug - snoring optional. Correctly lashed up, a hammock and matress could provide support for about 24 hours before it became waterlogged. Well that was the theory but I never had to find out. Basic swimming test - jump in shallow end in duck suit, swim to deep end and bob about for two minutes that swim back to shallow end. I had four days to learn and the PTI decided that it would take too long to teach me properly. I did the course by swimming on my back to solve the problem of breathing correctly. He gave me a Fair Pass. Still can't swim properly; I just make sure that I don't fall into the water. Ken

Re creases, never heard of 5 creases I was only 5`6" but always had 7 creases, joined up in 1954 and remember blancoing my cap I was so pleased when the plastic covered caps came in, much easier to look after,

[quote=dayerb;59258]Re creases, never heard of 5 creases I was only 5`6" but always had 7 creases, joined up in 1954 and remember blancoing my cap I was so pleased when the plastic covered caps came in, much easier to look after,[/quote] 5 or 7 creases was an option in the 1960's, but not sure of the criteria.

This is interesting, but only says that the number of creases depended on the size of the wearer.... [url]http://histclo.com/Style/suit/sailor/mil/mil-rn.html[/url]

During ww2 I know the navy issued black sailor caps which came with white covers, but at a millitary show recently someone was selling white caps with black covers. Were these standard issue aswell. Kevin.

As a matter of interest can anyone tell me the history of the RN uniform and why it is the design that it is I am referring to the uniform most of you lads wore....of course;)

Men dressed as seamen were issued with white & black caps, those in fore & aft rig were issued with black caps & white pique covers. We young stokers pestered our Stoker PO's for cap covers which had become unuseable, we turned in one part of the covers edge to make a peak, we then wore them as steaming caps. Senior rates & officers shirts were all collarless, the collars required starching, later paper & plastic collars were tried before collar attached shirts came into use.

[quote=oldsalt;60367]Men dressed as seamen were issued with white & black caps, those in fore & aft rig were issued with black caps & white pique covers. We young stokers pestered our Stoker PO's for cap covers which had become unuseable, we turned in one part of the covers edge to make a peak, we then wore them as steaming caps. Senior rates & officers shirts were all collarless, the collars required starching, later paper & plastic collars were tried before collar attached shirts came into use.[/quote] Thank you Keith but why Bell Bottoms, why fore and aft rig ,why a hat that gets blown off so easily it must have started some how:confused:

Mik43 obviously has missed the connection with Royal Purple indicating the majestic liniage of Stokers.And that from an Aussie Republican. Cheers John O'C.

Ivor.there is a book which gives good detail of RN uniforms and rigs about WW2 period.It's from Osprey Publishing.title The Royal Navy 1939-45. Cheers JohnO'C.

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