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RN Submarines: K-Class - World Naval Ships Forums Archive (Page 2)

RN Submarines: K-Class (Page 2)

Posts 51 to 100

[FONT=Verdana]Great photograph Balticsubs, thanks.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=3][B]Submarine K6[/B][/SIZE][/FONT] [I][FONT=Verdana]K6[/FONT][/I][FONT=Verdana] was laid down on the 8th of November 1915 at HM Dockyard at Devonport. She was launched on the 31st May 1916 and commissioned in May 1917. She was the first of the K’s to be fitted with the swan shaped bow, and to have her funnels lengthened to try and reduce the danger of the boilers being flooded.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]During her first submerged trial in North Dockyard at Devonport, with many dockyard workers and Navy personnel on board, [I]K6[/I] refused to surface. One of the engine fitters traced the fault to the compressed air system and effected a temporary repair, allowing the submarine to rise to the surface after an anxious two hours. The fitter was subsequently awarded the OBE for his courage and devotion to duty, even though the incident itself was hushed up.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]It was during Beatty’s cruiser deployment exercise EC1 on the 31st January 1918, later to become known as “The Battle of May Island”, that [I]K6[/I], amidst all the confusion that unfolded, sliced through her sister submarine [I]K4[/I], sinking her with the loss of 55 men. See [/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][URL="http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10125"][COLOR=#800080]http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10125[/COLOR][/URL][/FONT] [/FONT] [I][FONT=Verdana]K6[/FONT][/I][FONT=Verdana] was sold on the 13th July 1926 and scrapped by Cashmore, Newport.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]Couple more shots of K6[/FONT] [I]Original source of photographs not determined. No copyright restrictions evident[/I]
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Hi Clive, here are 2 more of K6 on the same day at Scapa 4/12/1917. K3 was out with her as well as they took a heap of photos of her on the same day as well.
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K26 as completed.
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A couple more pictures of the "K" class to add to the collection. Bob.
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[FONT=Verdana][B][SIZE=3]Submarines K12 & K14[/SIZE][/B][/FONT] [I][FONT=Verdana]K12[/FONT][/I][FONT=Verdana] was a Group I boat of this Class and was built by Armstrong Whitworth on the Tyne. Laid down on the 1st of October 1915, she was launched on the 23rd of February 1917, and commissioned on the 1st of August the same year.[/FONT] [I][FONT=Verdana]K14[/FONT][/I][FONT=Verdana] was built by Fairfields, Govan in Scotland, and was laid down on the 1st of November 1915. She was launched on the 8th of February 1917, and completed on the 22nd of May the same year.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]Both boats formed part of the 13th Submarine, first at Scapa Flow, and then at Rosyth, where they both took part in Operation EC1, known as the Battle of May Island, on the 31st of January 1918. [I]K12[/I] survived the operation virtually unscathed. [I]K14 [/I]was rammed by [I]K22[/I], and although she was almost sunk, was able to be reapired. Two men were lost in the incident.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]For a full account of the Battle of May Island, click on the following Forum thread link:[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][URL="http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10125"][COLOR=#800080]http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10125[/COLOR][/URL][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]Late in 1923 (dates vary), [I]K2[/I] collided with [I]K12[/I] whilst leaving Portland Harbour early one morning, carving a huge hole in the forward casing and bending her own stem. The damage was however superficial and both boats were soon returned to service.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]In 1919 (?) [I]K14[/I] suffered a boiler explosion forcing open the mushroom ventilators whilst she was diving. As a result, the boiler room flooded, and only swift action prevented her loss and she was brought safely to the surface. After re-fitting, she suffered another explosion and a fire in her batteries.[/FONT] [I][FONT=Verdana]K12[/FONT][/I][FONT=Verdana] was sold on the 23rd of July 1926 to the Alloa Shipbreaking Company, Charleston, for breaking up.[/FONT] [I][FONT=Verdana]K14[/FONT][/I][FONT=Verdana] was sold in December 1926 (dates vary) and broken up by the Granton Ship Breaking Company.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]K12K14_1: No details. [I]Original source of picture not determined. No copyright restrictions evident[/I][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]K12_1: Possibly in the East Mediterranean? Date unknown. [I]Postcard from my personal collection.[/I][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]K14_1: Crew of [I]K14[/I]. No Details.[I] Original source of picture not determined. No copyright restrictions evident[/I][/FONT] [I][COLOR=white].[/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=white].[/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=white].[/COLOR][/I]
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The wrecks of K-4 and K-17 have been found by a survey team scanning the seabed in the forth in advance of a wind turbine project. [URL="http://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news/roundup/articles/2011/08/11/416048-images-pinpoint-ww1-sub-wrecks-/"]Article[/URL] Cheers, Derek.

Thanks for that Derek. Good to know that they will remain protected.

[B]K5 - The Lost Commander[/B] The captain of the sunken submarine Lt Commander John Austin Gaimes DSO was one of the most experienced of British submarine commanders. Only four or five officers qualified in underwater craft were senior to him on the list of Lt.-Commanders. He volunteered for the branch in 1908 while still a sub-lieutenant and was appointed for training on 1 January 1909 following a year as second-in-command of the destroyer Syren in the channel fleet. After serving in submarines of the C-Type at the Nore he was appointed on 5 October 1911 in command of A9 at Devonport from which he was transferred a year later to B3. In March 1913 he went to China as captain of C37 stationed at Hong Kong and remained there almost four years including the first part of the war. From the 10 April 1917 he commanded a submarine in the Harwich flotilla and in June 1918 was awarded the DSO for his war service. After the Armistice he commanded submarines attached to the depot ship Dolphin at Portsmouth and in November 1919 was appointed to the cruiser Inconstant for duty with the steam-driven vessels of the K Type in the First Flotilla. On 1 April 1920 he obtained command of K5. Lt-commander Gaimes was 33 years old and unmarried, and was the only so of the late Mr. Henry Austing Gaimes and of Mrs Gaimes Tonbridge. He was educated at Tonbridge School and posted to the Britannia in 1901. To his credit must be placed the location of the secret passage to Heligoland. He found a buoyed channel leading up to Heligoland, followed the line of buoys and eventually laid a minefield almost in the anti-submarine gate of the boom near the island. His submarine was on the surface while the mines were being laid and barely 200 yards away a German patrol boat was drifting about and by singing of the crew was plainly heard. When the U-boats left Germany on their last voyage to our coast in December 1918 Lt-commander Gaimes piloted one of them to its anchorage. He found that the Germans had hauled down the British ensign, but by his command was quickly run up again Lt-Commander Gaimes was at work on the preparation on a volume dealing with the work of submarines during the war.

[B]K5 - The Officers[/B] Lt FWF Cuddeford the second-in-command was promoted on 15 May 1916 while serving in the cruiser Carnavon to which he was appointed in July 1914. He joined the submarine service in November 1917 and was attached to the Dolphin depot ship at Portsmouth for submarine duties at the time of the armistice. He had only been transferred to K5 for a little over a month from K11 in which he had been serving since 1919. Lt BJ Clarke was also appointed to K5 in December 1920 after having been attached to the Portsmouth depot since July. He was promoted on 1 August 1917 after two years as mate being one of the officers promoted from the lower deck for meritorious service and examinations. At that date he had been a year in the battleship Resolution in the Grand Fleet. In January 1918 he became second-in-command of the destroyer Porpoise and it was in September of that year that he went in for the submarine course. Engineer-Lt. EJ Bowles had served in K5 since 27 October 1919 and had attained his present rank in May 1910. He too was promoted from the lower deck through the grade of mate (E) and has been in the submarine branch since August 1918. Acting Engineer GW Baker was promoted to the rank on 1 July 1920 and was appointed to the Pandora for duties in submarines last month Acting Lt RJM Middlemist who was promoted last May had only recently joined K5. He was appointed to Dolphin at Portsmouth for submarine duty on 18 December 1920. Robert James Menteith Middlemist was the only child of the late Captain James Menteith Middlemist, Seaforth Highlanders, Deputy Inspector of the Gold Coast Constabulary, by Amelia youngest daughter of the late Rev William Courtenay Clack. Born in 1900 he entered the Royal Navy in the early years of the war. He was a most promising young officer and universally popular. His father died at Kumasi while attempting to relieve the garrison there in 1900.

[B]The Times, Friday, Feb 04, 1921, The K5's Last Dive - Cause of Loss a Mystery[/B] The Secretary of the Admiralty announces that full inquiry has been made into the circumstances of the loss of the HM submarine K5 on 20 January with the following result: At the time of the accident the submarines attached to the Atlantic Fleet including K5 were practising an attack on capital ships of the Fleet. It is established that K5 dived at 1130 at a normal angle and without difficulty. She was seen on the surface again at 1144 and dived again at once. She was never seen again. There was at the time no reason to suppose that K5 was in difficulties or that an accident had occurred. Shortly after 1400 she was called but did not answer her call sign. Search was actually instituted by HMS Inconstant and the other submarines of the K class. At 1742 at approximately 1.5 miles from the diving position a large patch of oil and some wreckage were discovered. The wreckage was identified as belonging to K5. Destroyers were sent by the Commander-in-Chief to assist the search and HMS Inconstant and the destroyers remained in this position all night. No bodies were recovered. The actual cause of the loss of the submarine K5 cannot be ascertained in the absence of any survivors and no blame can be attributed to the any one in the matter. It is established from the evidence that she was not sunk by collision with any other vessel. The wreckage picked up furnishes no evidence as to the cause of the accident which remains a matter of conjecture. Some loss of trim or of control may have occurred while submerged which caused the vessel to reach a depth at which the external pressure would become too great and destruction would quickly follow. The great size of the K submarines naturally makes their management when diving more difficult than in the case of smaller submarines. This is one of the chief technical problems that have to be solved in increasing the size of submarines. K Class submarines some of which have been in commission more than four years have frequently dived in deep water and have been operated safely during the war. The evidence of the CO’s of the other submarines in company with K5 on this occasion indicates that there was nothing in the weather conditions to make diving of an unusual risk. The special instructions and standing orders under which the exercise was being conducted are clear and provide as far as possible for all contingencies. K5 had undergone an ordinary periodical refit in December 1920 and had since exercised both afloat and submerged. Her CO had expressed himself satisfied with the vessel and the training of the crew.

[B]K5 Crew 'A to D'[/B] Aburrow, Cecil Frederick John, AB, J4284 (Po) Andrews, Herbert Graham, Petty Officer, J5147 (Po) Backhouse, Albert Edward, Stoker First Class, K21000 (Ch) Beaumont, George, Langwell CERA 2nd Class, 272157 (Po) Burns, John, Stoker 1st Class, K170609 (Po) Butland, Richard William Henry, Officers Steward 3rd Class. L9741 (Po) Charman, William James, Leading Stoker, K3799 (Po) Clarke, Cecil Frederick, AB J32900 (Ch) Clowes John Henry Thomas, AB, J25668 (Po) Cornish, Percy William, AB, J11540 (Ch) Cox, John William, Telegraphist, J49821 (Po) Donovan, Michael, AB J18322 (Po) [B]K5 Crew E to L[/B] Edmonds, Charles, Leading Seaman J2996 (Ch) Ellis, Horace Alfred, Stoker 1st Class SS124701 (Ch) Evans, John Horace, AB J14734 (Dev) French, Alfred Frederick, Petty Officer 214229 (Po) George, Walter, AB J17015 (Po) Gillett, Victor Allen, AB J24980 (Po) Hester, William James, ERA 3rd Class M3510 (Po) Hicklin, William Osborne, Leading Stoker K12308 (Ch) Hutchence, Harry, Stoker1st Class K22154 (Po) Inight, Walter, Leading Seaman J10950 (Po) possibly Night?? Kendall, John Gilmour, Stoker 1st Class K24052 (Ch) Lampard, Thomas Frederick, Leading Seaman J12698 (Ch) Lashmar ???, Betram Arthur, ERA 2nd Class M4306 (Po) Lawrence, James Gordon, AB J26873 (Ch) Lawrence, Stanfield, Stoker First Class K24155 (Po) [B]K5 Crew M to R[/B] MacGregor, Robert James Russell, Stoker 1st Class K19376 (Po) Male, Bert Edward, Chief Stoker, 302183 (Po) Mansfield, Richard Albert, AB J2617 (Ch) Metcalfe, Fred, AB SS8401 (Po) Mould, William, Petty Officer J7392 (Po) Page, Alfred George, Stoker Petty Officer 229695 (Po) Parr, Frederick, Stoker 1st Class, K20815 (Po) Parry, James Frederick, Stoker 1st Class, K17768 (Po) Pollard, George, ERA 3rd Class, M10901 (Dev) Purkis, Frederick Walter, Stoker 1st Class, K19579 (Ch) Raggett, Alfred David, Stoker 1st Class, K26671 (Po) Riley, Herbert, ERA, 2nd Class, M4194 (Ch) [B]K5 Crew S to W[/B] Seymour, George, Stoker 1st Class, K24204 (Ch) Sheppard, William Cyril, Petty Officer J5572 (Po) Smith, Frederick John, Stoker Petty Officer 299134 (Po) Smith, William Balfour, Stoker 1st Class K19915 (Po) Smith, William Carrington, AB J6291 (Ch) Tanner, William James, Signalman J21454 (Po) Ward, Horace William, AB SS 8464 West, Lewis Herbert, Stoker 1st Class K20632 (Po) Wiltshire, Richard, Signalman J31907 (Dev) Wooton, William, Stoker Petty Officer K2065 (Ch)

Here's a photo of a memorial service for the K5 crew , held aboard RAMILLIES. I have Allied Victory medal awarded to a sailor named Tanner, for his service in WW1 . He was one of those lost in K5 Cheers, Nigel P/S I do not ever recall seeing memorial type postcards for this disaster...I have and have seen cards for the other inter war sub disasters, but not this one. They usually have a small photo of the boat surrounded by the names of the crew.
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Not that many years ago, I used to listen to a friend's grandfather, Walter Valet, speak of his experiences as a stoker in K-boats and other submarines during the Great War and afterwards. I have just stumbled on this gem in the wonderful [URL="http://www.naval-review.co.uk/archive.asp"]Naval Review archives[/URL] which may be of interest to adherents of this thread: [INDENT][URL="http://www.naval-review.co.uk/issues/1943-2.pdf#Page=56&View=Fit"]The Naval Review Vol XXXI No. 2 (May 1943) pp 145-147[/URL][/INDENT] [QUOTE][CENTER][B]A SUB-MARINER REMEMBERS K-BOATS[/B][/CENTER] "I YIELD to no man in my admiration of engineers," observed Eeyore Smith, "for, without them there would be none of the amenities of life (and that reminds me to ask you to be more liberal with your steam on the baths, Chief) but I think that their attitude towards the internal combustion engine has always been tinged with conservatism. "To the average 'plumber' the word engine is synonymous with steam. I remember as a midshipman once talking to a stoker who was feeling particularly proud of a set of picket-boat engines. 'Ah,' he said, 'if only George Washington could see this little lot!' and when I queried his remark he told me 'that that was the bloke wot invented steam.' So you see that even the humbler members of the profession associate the stuff with truth and possibly progress as well. "Speaking as one who has suffered to the full from the wiles and weaknesses of the Diesel engine, I do feel that if it had not been looked on as the poor relation of all propelling machinery for a great many years we in submarines would not have passed through that strangely romantic period of the steam submarine. "Just as it used to be said that no sub-mariner could truly claim to be fully fledged until he experienced the worst that Mr. Shanks could do to him, so it can be asserted that those who have not served in K-boats missed an experience, unique (let us trust) in the annals of submarine history. "It is not for me to cast aspersions on the wisdom of Those who decided to fit submarines with chimneys; no doubt there were excellent reasons; perhaps it was a little matter of rivalry with our gallant Allies, the French, who ran to a tasty line in kettle-fitted submersibles (Plongez! Plongez! Vite! pour la gloire de France); as has been suggested, perhaps it was the result of confusion in the drawing office whereby a destroyer was grafted on to a submarine - after all, there were such things as 'P' boats. It is sufficient to quote the Chinese proverb that a State of War is Conducive to imaginative Effort. It may, however, be of interest to the present generation if I touch on some aspects of life in the K-boats in the years succeeding the Armistice; and here is a brief description of those weird vessels. Over three hundred feet in length, herring-gutted so that their period of roll was the fastest ever, they took five minutes to submerge if it was a good day and fifteen if the engineer officer had been careless about his feed water. Once underwater with no adverse reports coming from the boiler-room as to the effacacy of the funnel and intake covers, the trimming of such unwieldy craft was fraught with considerable interest. Visitors to the Firth of Forth (if there were such people who voluntarily went there) in the early twenties, would as a daily occurrence have observed parts of K-boat projecting above water. Sometimes it would be the stem with two propellers idly whizzing and sometimes a large sinister-looking bow could be seen projecting above the surface of the water like a basking whale. There were, of course, other occasions when one was thankful for the proximity of the sea bed; but it is better not to dwell on that point. "The essential difference between the K-boat Flotilla and the ordinary submarine flotilla was that the former were self contained; that is to say that on return to harbour the crew continued to live on board and not to seek relaxation and comfort in some such handsomely furnished depot as has been described on another occasion; and, of course, the officers did likewise. There was little in this to complain of from the point of view of the crew, for they were spared many irksome routine matters and petty chores; but to the officers, who were expected to appear in a variety of costumes ranging from football togs to mess dress, there were certain disadvantages. There was, too, the question of one's proximity to the captain. The K.R. and A.I. in their wisdom have ordained that for the sake of discipline and moral the captain should as far as possible keep himself apart from his officers. In K-boats this was interpreted by the erection of a matchboard partition which screened off a substantial portion of the wardroom and behind which the captain was said to be in his cabin. The fact that he could hear everything just as well from behind his cribbed confines as if he were sitting in the mess was at times a trifle hedging for those junior officers who like to express themselves freely in their hours of ease. There was another member of the wardroom mess who was even more unpopular: it was a large air-compressor. When it was running speech, though possible, was a waste of time; and it also had the unpleasant habit of spattering the surroundings with fine drops of the very best mineral oil. "I need hardly say that this air-compressor was only used when its opposite number in the after-compartment fell sick, and when this was the case the engineer officer felt that he was persona non grata with his captain and messmates. The question of the stowage of our clothing was as neatly solved, in my case, as it was ever likely to be by a truly miraculous drawer which, like an inverted widow's-cruse, never entirely filled. It was the simultaneous discovery of an assortment of garments in the bottle-well together with the fact that the drawer was without a back to it that did much to cause the eternal sourness of my present outlook. "Another interesting fitment was a pipe to the upper deck which was known as the 'six-inch hand-up.' Its origin was traced to the early design of the K-boats, when an additional gun was mounted on the upper deck at a position which gave it 30 inches of free-board (the fact that the upper deck was only tenable when the sea was as calm as the Serpentine had escaped the notice of the designer; but 'What the Hell, Brother,' as our American Allies have been heard to remark). The existence of this hole in the roof was of great benefit, for a small intake fan was fitted to it and gave good supplies of fresh air to the captain's cabin. On one occasion it gave other service; that was when a cheerful-minded officer poured a sack of potatoes down the ventilating cowl with the result that the captain's bunk was filled with 'finely-divided particles of potato which we call chips.' "You will have observed, my dear Chief, that the cramped physical conditions in the Flotilla did not affect the high spirits of the officers. They used to meet onboard the good ship Remarkable from time to time. This vessel was not considered even officially to be worthy of the name depot ship, but acted as a useful tavern and bathroom. It was aboard thq Remarkable that the well-known confraternity known as the Brighter K-boat Society was founded and became an enormous success. Like all such societies, the objects were purely convivial, and it added much to the merriment of all concerned. In particular the steady flow of lampoons which found their way on to the screen on cinema nights in the Remarkable was a most encouraging sign of the literary versatility of submarine officers. There are still many old-timers who cherish the little badge which was worn on official occasions, whilst to this day certain songs which originated from the B.K.B.S. can be heard on Guest Nights. For example:- [INDENT]'Early in the morning the Inconstant hoists a signal See the little K-boats all in a row Man in the control-room pulls a lot of levers Swoosh-Swish-Down we go.'[/INDENT] Neither my voice nor my memory, you will observe, have lost their timbre after all these years. "But enough of such frivolities. We learnt how easy station-keeping can become when you are supplied with a revolution telegrapth and a couple of boilers full of steam; we learnt that after ringing down 'Dive' and pressing the hooter it was a good thing to walk along the casing and watch the clips secured on the funnel doors; we learnt that unwelcome visitors could be firmly dealt with by shutting down for diving and opening main vents as they stepped aboard; and we learnt that the end of the world does not come when the boiler-room fills up by reason of heavy seas breaking over the funnel tops. "We learnt, too, to recognize by a preliminary flickering of the depth gauge needles the symptom that warned us that we were twenty tons bodily heavy, that it was a mistake to try and force a K-boat under by putting an angle on her bows and thus elevating the whizzers above the surface of the ocean, that ammunition hand-ups should be shut before diving and that cable locker doors which give access to the sea are best screwed on at night. "Those and many other useful lessons we learnt; but, above all, we found that even under the most uncomfortable and peculiar circumstances it is always possible to enjoy life. I will wager you a month's wine bill, Chief, that there is not one K-boat chap who does not look back on that curious era with a nostalgia that grows more poignant as the distance lends its increasing enchantment. Nevertheless, if any damned designer starts working again on steam-propelled submarines I for one am going to make an application for the Chiltern Hundreds." G. H.-J.[/QUOTE]

Thnx Rob, that was interesting. I wonder who this chap is, there are only 1 Walter Va[B]l[/B]let listed on the National archives site, but he has an Able Seaman Number. J22228 There are only 2 on the system with that surname, the other being Charles Vallet, his number 233668. Sometimes before they chaged to the J numbers for Able Seaman and K numbers for Stokers, it gets confusing. I find many men who were Able Seaman have the numbers prior to 240000 which should be Able Seaman, but they change to Stokers and keep the Able Seaman number so many people overlook them when trying to find them. But had he changed from Able Seaman to Stoker in the J series, he would also get a new Stoker K number, so i do wonder that he was an AB & not a Stoker. What do you think?

Hello Darren, just seen this on `K's as I was `looking round' and saw your name. Find here the Submarine Service Card for AB Walter Vallet. I do not have one for Charles Vallet so he may not have been a submariner - but I do not have ALL the cards by any means !! You will notice that both Vallet's came from St. Helens - so brothers / cousins ???? VALLET WALTER AB LTO D/J 22228 NE RN 070395 070517 170509 DOLPHIN G5 170725 TITANIA DOLPHIN ADDL 191015 L17 200212 LUCIA ADDL 201001 DEFIANCE 201102 LTO CSE ADDL 210628 K2 211014 INCONSTANT SHORE 220612 ADM 188 / 691 D.o.B ; 07 March 1895 P.o.B ; St. Helens Lancs. Note ; dates of service on boats are in reverse - 170725 = 25 July 1917 So the photo referred to was taken 14 October 1921 / 12 June 1922. Sadsac

Re post 51. A bigger version of the first attachment & one of K4.
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Re # 66 Thanks very much Rob - very interesting (and amusing) I believe the article encompasses the true "spirit" of humour despite adversity which was (and hopefully still is) a subtle but very commendable part of life in the RN

Hello all, My friend Walter Davies in St Helens has just confirmed that his grandfather was indeed the Walter Vallet shown in Dennis's post [URL="http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1725903&postcount=68"]#68[/URL]. I must have mistaken him for a stoker because of the steam connection. According to his original service record (which my friend still holds but has offered to the RN Submarine Museum) he was either trained in or served on board the submarines B7, C16, G2, L17 and K2. His reports contain the signatures of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Kennedy_Horton"]Max Horton[/URL] (12/6/22) and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dunbar-Nasmith"]Martin Dunbar-Nasmith[/URL] (12/5/22). Walter Vallet died on 20 Sep 1986 and I remember him as bright-eyed and bushy-tailed right up to the end. Charles Vallet was indeed Walter's non-submariner brother and had a colourful history. He deserted and fled to Australia after flooring a CPO he found bullying one of the juniors on board his ship. When war was declared, he joined the ANZACs as a Sapper and was later granted a King's pardon in London. He lived out his life in New Zealand.

[B][I]The Times,[/I] 24 January 1921[/B] [I]An Experts Theory – Danger of Rapid Diving in Deep Water by Rear Admiral S. S. Hall RN Retired (In charge of the submarine service during the war) [/I] The ‘K’ Class submarines were designed solely for action with the Grand Fleet in the North Sea. They are the largest and fastest submarines in existence, certainly by far the most complicated and they need an exceptionally well trained crew. It is not know what rapidity of dive was being demanded by the operation orders, but it seems certain that the first lieutenant (K5) on whom would fall the chief duty of supervision below was recently appointed and also many of the crew were newly joined. However, this may be, it may be taken as probable that the loss of the vessel was due to some delay to checking the downward momentum gained by the vessel being over-trimmed in diving, either by admitting compressed air to slowly to too many tanks at one time, to tanks only partially full, or a sea connection being closed prematurely. In the locality of the exercises the water was so deep that the submarine would inevitably be crushed and prevent control being regained due to the entry of water. This would also prevent any use of the underwater signalling plant being made. The accident is deplorable in the loss of so many gallant officers and men, and it is not clear why the K Class should be taken on cruises in winter. The vessels may with accuracy be called ‘freak’ submarines built entirely built for the peculiar conditions of the last war. The high speed necessitates great length and the further complication of steam demands very large openings for funnels and air intakes to boiler rooms. These have always been a source of great anxiety in bad weather or rapid diving. It will be remembered that K13 foundered on her acceptance trials owing to some of these openings not being properly closed and half the crew were drowned while the other half were saved only because she was in very shallow water. Presumably these vessels are kept in commission in order to perfect the conduct of such submarines in a fleet battle, but it appears to be a questionable policy since the K Class will be obsolete long before such a battle can take place. They were designed solely for the North Sea and have not the qualifications, nor the sea endurance to accompany a battle fleet under war conditions, except in home waters. The keenness of all submarine officers is well known. It is hoped that this has not been overstrained from a lack of understanding of the delicacy of this very special type of submarine with the result of the vessels being employed on work for which they were never intended and at which they would be highly dangerous if the personnel were not highly trained. Characteristics of the K Type The K submarines have no fewer than five kinds of motive power installed for propulsion on and under water and for working all the complicated machinery which this type of submarine requires. The amount of water to be taken in before the vessel will dive may be anything from 300 to 800 tons according to the amount of buoyancy with which the vessel is cruising. This in turn depends upon the state of the weather, the speed orders and the rapidity required in diving. It has always been recognised that owing to their size and complications the K class cannot dive as rapidly as smaller and similar submarines. For work with the Fleet this was no disadvantage since they could always expect to get good warning; but a highly trained crew thoroughly familiar with every detail of the vessel is required. With such conditions the K-boats could dive from 20 knots on the surface in about four minutes but with anything but a perfectly trained crew any attempt to do this would be highly dangerous in deep water. With water entering the tanks at 200 tons a minute the vessel might easily be trimmed to such an extent that the slightest hitch in getting the compressed air to act would take the vessel too deep for recovery. It will be easily understood that as the vessel now weighs over two and a half thousand tons and has way on her he downward momentum may be considerable. If there is much sea or swell it may be imperative to give her some negative buoyancy to get her away from the surface, and though the compressed air will blow one or two tanks rapidly there is often considerable delay in checking the vessels downward motion. This is especially the case if the tank or tanks to which the air is admitted are not quite full and the vessel is already getting deep. The air has first of all to raise the pressure in the whole of the empty proportion of the tank. During this time the water is still entering and rising in pressure, and only when the air pressure exceeds this and commences to drive the water out will the buoyancy be gained. Even then it will be an appreciable time before the vessel is checked and then begins to rise. Even then it will be an appreciable time before the vessel is checked and then begins to rise. With the large number of compartments, communication from the control room is maintained by means of telephones or voice pipes to all stations where hatches, ventilators and so forth must be closed before diving, and sea water to the ballast tanks which extend for about 300 feet of the submarines length. It will be readily understood that diving a vessel of this size and intricacy is a delicate operation demanding the complete knowledge of his duty from ever member of her crew and a perfect system of drill and control from the central compartment before rapid diving can be safely undertaken.

ROB, what a very interesting `follow-up' of the `Vallet story'. Also great to see ones suppositions confirmed. Sadsac

Hi Dennis, do you have a Chief Stoker Walker from K7 in 1918?

Hello Darren, yes, I have him, at least I presume this is `your' Walker - find here his Submarine Service Record Card ; WALKER WILLIAM CHARLES C/STO P/ 299665 NE RN NE 160703 2ND PERIOD SC 160703 DOLPHIN K7 160815 DOLPHIN K7 170114 FEARLESS SC 190906 DOLPHIN GP A 200504 CRESCENT SC 210613 DOLPHIN L6 210622 DOLPHIN L6 210729 DOLPHIN HOSP DOLPHIN SC 211031 DOLPHIN SOS 220221 DOLPHIN SC 220327 DOLPHIN L52 220907 LUCIA L52 221202 DOLPHIN SC 230123 DOLPHIN K14 CM 230416 DOLPHIN SC ........... DOLPHIN SHORE. PENSIONED. S/M RFR 8-1-24 ADM 188/486 D.o.B ; 11 March 1882 P.o.B ; Cambridge 2nd Period - so presumably he had a previous engagement RN - probably surface ships - the ADM 188 will give that. I know you have `umpteen'. Sadsac

Hi Dennis, yep that was him, picked his name up from K7 log, but hard with a surname only. Here are 2 more. K6, Able Seaman E Watson 1917 K9, Whitfield, Y of Sig, 1917

Hello Darren, here is the Ernest Watson that I have. You will notice that he does not show up as being in K6, but these records are not `complete' by any-means !! He is E.W & also AB - ADM 188 will no doubt conferm - please let me know if / when you check. I will next visit PRO - Sept / December ??? WATSON ERNEST AB ST P/ SS 9419 NE RN NE 181120 TC/ADDL 181129 DOLPHIN FOR ST 190405 VERNON ADDL 190714 DOLPHIN FOR TRG 190823 SAREPTA ADDL 200115 DOLPHIN L4 200714 L4 200818 AMBROSE SC 210113 AMBROSE L16 210802 AMBROSE SC 211114 AMBROSE L3 211205 TITANIA SC 211220 AMBROSE ADDL 220406 DOLPHIN SC 220523 DOLPHIN ADDL 230126 DOLPHIN DISCHARGED SHORE. S.S. TIME EXPIRED. 9-8-23 ADM 188/1127 D.o.B ; 17 February 1901 P.o.B ; Halsham Yorks From his number (SS) & not showing up on K6 - he may have remustered from a six figure number (123456 ??) or even a K(Stoker) ???? If you took these Bods from a written document could WHITFIELD be WATERFIELD ????

Hi Dennis, no that can't be him, my E Watson AB is listed in K6 log 25/5/1917 as joining her at Scapa Flow from Fearless. Unfortunately i have so many common names like Smith, Jones, Walker Watson. All need investigation.

Can I take it from the goings on in this thread that those who served in K boats are being recorded? If that's so, is there any particular criteria to make them eligible for recording? I say that , as I have medals to some men who served in K boats...from memory I'm pretty sure at least 3 . Happy to give details if needed. Cheers, Nigel

Hi Nigel, yes i'm recording all K Class men, and for that matter all Submariners 1901 1930. Huge task as there was never an official list. S any details of men i will be happy to check if i have them and any other details i have i will pass to you on these men.

NIGEL, yes, please give details of the K men, especially their numbers if they are on the Gong, and also the Gong itself. If you have many medals perhaps we could identify some ?? Perhaps worth strating a GONG THread - if there ain't one now !! Darren, will look into my K boat chappies & see `up-what-comes'. Sadsac

Ok folks, here's a starter. A number of my sub men, are casualties. so I assume that you will all have their details, from CWGC, so the ones I'll post were not lost , although for other reasons you may know of them. There are not many . just 5 I think, but may be of some contribution. This man McDonald, is the only one I have a PDF S/R for, all the others are PRO photocopies. This chap, a career AB earned an Africa General Service medal clasp "Somaliland 1908-10 " and a Naval General Service medal for the Persian Gulf operations, prior to the war in HMS HYACINTH . He then earned his WW1 trio, and after bumpy start gained a Naval Long Service Good Conduct medal. I have his full group. As can be seen, it's possible some details were left off his S/R . Particularly for his period in LUCIA , its hard to believe he was S/C for all that time. Same applies for some other billets as well. Then of course we see service in G12 and G3 , a period in M1 and then over 3 years in K6! So that deals with him. I can relate to another 3 men by name. Another I shall have to track down his file , as I know he was "K" boats , but specifics are not in memory. However, here's one chap that may be known. , Stoker 1 K13753 W Megee. I have his DSM and British War Medal, he gained the DSM for the famous patrols in E11 under Nasmith. So you may well have him taped , however unless you've seen his S/R, you will not be aware he went to K boats. He left E11 somewhere near mid to late 1916 . Then ended up in K boats. I know he was at May island, I cannot recall which boat though. Two other men, did not serve in K boats. They were a PO by the name of Kenchington , who was taken POW by the Turks , from E15 , when stranded in the Dardanelles. The other , a man named Stubbington, who was interned from E13 , when she too was stranded. I assume, that perhaps these men are known, owing to the situations they found themselves in. I have the single 14/15 star to Kenchington and the Victory medal awarded to Stubbington. The fifth man I mentioned, I'll have to find his file to relate specifics, as indeed I'd have to find these others I mentioned if more specifics needed. I'll have a look for the files anyhow. As I'm in the middle of "reorganising" :rolleyes: my files, it may take a bit longer than normal. Cheers, Nigel
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Hi Nigel, i did not have McDonald. I did have Megee, listed in K6 log 6/7/1917 as discharged at Scapa Flow to Fearless & rejoined K6 8/7/1917, Yes i have the other chaps as well, your E13 chap would have got the St George Medal, surivours got it, those killed got the Cross of St George.

[QUOTE=BALTICSUBS;1726178]Hi Nigel, i did not have McDonald. I did have Megee, listed in K6 log 6/7/1917 as discharged at Scapa Flow to Fearless & rejoined K6 8/7/1917, Yes i have the other chaps as well, your E13 chap would have got the St George Medal, surivours got it, those killed got the Cross of St George.[/QUOTE] Thanks for that, interesting about the St George medals . A hobby horse of mine , those particular medals...In my case mainly those awarded for Jutland. I had no idea at all that the E13 survivors were awarded them. Did you see the Group to the E13 man who was killed, that sold a little while back? Was complete with his Russian Cross...Fetched HUGE money, may have been Spink. Incidentally, thinking on, I've had a memory surge and I'm pretty certain the fifth man I refer to who was in K boat's, I'm pretty sure was named Cullen. I know he gained the NGS Persian Gulf (HIGHFLYER) , and as the roll is to hand he almost certainly is J1843 W Cullen . His full group being , NGS, WW1 trio and Naval LSGC. Incidentally. concerning the E15 survivors , I have a vague recollection of reading some while ago, that there is a photo of the E15 survivors (all or some of them) in Turkish hands, post capture. Anyone any knowledge of this photo? Cheers, Nigel

Nigel, here is STUBBINGTON ; STUBBINGTON FRANCIS GEORGE L/STO P/304560 NE RN 200883 130209 130209 DOLPHIN E13 180828 MAIDSTONE 181114 PRESIDENT V SC 190101 DOLPHIN L33 190715 DOLPHIN SC 200123 TITANIA L33 210510 TITANIA SC 220129 DOLPHIN SC 220609 LUCIA L25 220610 LUCIA SICK SC 221124 LUCIA L18 230221 LUCIA SC 230924 LUCIA L18 231008 LUCIA L11 240117 LUCIA L11 240512 DOLPHIN GROUP E L11 250206 DOLPHIN SC 250709 DOLPHIN TO SHORE PENSION TIME EXPIRED 27.07.25 P.O.W. 9-6-16 ADM 188 / 496 P.o.B ; SOBERTON HANTS D.o.B ; 200883 Others later Sadac

Nigel, here is `your' Cullen ; CULLEN WILLIAM CPO S/COX C/J 1843 LSGC RN 100892 010714 TC 140701 DOLPHIN C6 BONAVENTURE E42 160212 MAIDSTONE K3 171026 FEARLESS K8 180208 FEARLESS K11 200203 INCONSTANT ADDL 200916 DOLPHIN TC COURSE 201030 VERNON ADDL 210207 DOLPHIN SC 210216 INCONSTANT K6 230527 CONQUEST ADDL 240818 DOLPHIN INSTRUCTOR SC 250407 CONQUEST ADDL 250831 DOLPHIN GENERAL SERVICE 250925 C S EXPIRES 100822 SENIOR IN RATING 010715 LS ADM 188/650 P.o.B ; Grays Essex You wil note that he served in FOUR K boats !! Sadsac

Dennis, E Berry Able Seaman K2???

[QUOTE=dennis a feary;1726190]Nigel, here is `your' Cullen ; CULLEN WILLIAM CPO S/COX C/J 1843 LSGC RN 100892 010714 TC 140701 DOLPHIN C6 BONAVENTURE E42 160212 MAIDSTONE K3 171026 FEARLESS K8 180208 FEARLESS K11 200203 INCONSTANT ADDL 200916 DOLPHIN TC COURSE 201030 VERNON ADDL 210207 DOLPHIN SC 210216 INCONSTANT K6 230527 CONQUEST ADDL 240818 DOLPHIN INSTRUCTOR SC 250407 CONQUEST ADDL 250831 DOLPHIN GENERAL SERVICE 250925 C S EXPIRES 100822 SENIOR IN RATING 010715 LS ADM 188/650 P.o.B ; Grays Essex You wil note that he served in FOUR K boats !! Sadsac[/QUOTE] Thanks for that...I'm trying unravel what the number codes etc mean. Most interesting is that his ADM 188 record , only specifies boats served in from his service in E42 . No mention at all of any earlier boats. Can I take it from this he was in C6? His record from the entry in BONAVENTURE is thus: BONAVENTURE 1/7/1914 to 4/8/ 1914 THAMES 5/8/1914 to 28/1/1916 (he is promoted from AB to L/S in this period) DOLPHIN 29/1/1916 to 28/6/1916 MAIDSTONE 29/6/1916 to 30 /6/1917 MAIDSTONE (E42) 1/7/1917 to 30/9/1917 He then goes to FEARLESS and "K" boats. So as you can see, it's not untill July 1917 that the first boat (E42) is mentioned in his S/R. Is it possible he was in C6 from 1914 on..? I'm not up on the Flotilla's so unsure which boats used which Depot ships. Another puzzle is that his S/R does not list INCONSTANT or indeed, CONQUEST at all, he is listed in K6 with CYCLOPS as D/S . Interesting. Cheers, Nigel

Nigel, here is the Submarine Service Record Card of Cullen. You can see the difference in the entries from ADM 188. These cards are mostly acurate, but by no means definitive - I have seen mistakes / errors in both Card & Adm 188S/R's. Thought it may be of interest to you / whoever to see an actual Card. Can you post the ADM 188 of Cullen ??? Sadsac
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Thanks Dennis, most interesting. I see some key dates actually match, so all is not lost. From my experience ADM 188 records are renowned not for what they say, but what they do not. My habit of studying original parchments against the relevant ADM188 record , shows that time and again. I'd take the Sub Service record card as being more accurate, any day of the week. So, it appears Cullen was in boats for over 11 years...the words "glutton" and punishment come to mind, especially in that era. The listing of C6 is interesting, it looks like he was in her from onset of war untill he joined E42 , which must have seemed luxury! It would be interesting to see what depot ship C6's flotilla was served by, that would help somewhat. Anyhow, unfortunately my copy of Cullen's S/R is a photocopy, not a pdf file. I'll have to scan it asap and post it. Cheers, Nigel

Sorry about the delay, but here at last is a scan of Cullen's S/R. The onlt thing that puzzles me is the unintelligible notation immediately above the BONAVENTURE entry. Cheers, Nigel
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Hello all, Some more "K" boat men, and a query or two. Firstly , K 14498 Horace Bounds DSM. Bounds was lost in K 4 so I assume he is already on the radar. His ADM 188 S/R charts his course as follows.... Pembroke II 3 April 12 - 28 June 12 London 23 April 12 - London 3 April 13 - 16 May 13 Pembroke II 17 May 13 - 5 June 13 Triton 6 June 13 - 3 Aug 14 Pembroke I 4 Aug 14 - 6 Sept 14 Cormorant 7 Sept 14 - 28 Feb 15 Blenhiem 1 March 15 - 31 march 16 Europa (?) 1 April 16 - 30 June 16 Dolphin 1 July 16 - 31 Dec 16 Fearless (K4) 1 Jan 17 - 31 June 18 However, for some reason, (Source unknown) its thought he previously served in E2.....yet no mention of it. Any foundation of fact in this? Does he have a Sub card , does anyone know? The other "K" man may be less well known. He is: Alfred Collins, J5203 Leading Seaman in K3 Leading Seaman and Petty Officer in K6 His ADM 188 S/R charts his boats as follows.. K3 - January 1917to March 1917 K6 - March 1917 to June 1918 H51 - July 1919 to April 1921 L5 - October 1921 to February 1924 L20 - June 1924 to July 1924 Again, any more info at large on this man? Does he have a sub card, anyone know? Cheers, Nigel

Hello Nigel, here is Submarine details of BOUNDS. You will note that I have C/K 14491 - and you have C/K 14498 ???? Suspect that I am correct - CONFIRM !!!! BOUNDS HORACE STO 1 C/K 14491 DSM RN 250793 010416 NAVAL CAMP SC 160401 MUDROS E2 160410 MUDROS K4 160811 DOLPHIN K4 170206 FEARLESS DD K4 310118 AGE 25 CHATHAM 5 - 436 JOINED RN 030412 SEN IN RATING 030413 Son of Walter and Mary Louisa Bounds, of Donalda, Love St., Eddington, Herne Bay. Drowned through collision in North Sea. Chatham Memorial is open 0830 - 1700. For entry Telephone Guard Room at Brompton Barracks, 01634 - 822442. HMS FEARLESS. ADM 104 / 110. Record 1663. Page 231. Drowning - S/M "K.4" sunk in collision. HMS FEARLESS. ADM 188 / 895. AG 159 / 18. P.o.B ; Whistable, Kent. Occ ; Farm Labourer. Awarded Distinguished Service Medal AWO No. 3998 9.11.17. Also Commemorated in St Margeret Pattens Church, Eastcheap, London. Tablet installed by Mrs De Beauvoir Stock. Also that he is `Naval Camp' ??? This could be his time at EUROPA. Sadsac

Thanks Dennis Yes indeed, the morphing from the *correct* number of 14491 to the totally incorrect 14498 is entirely a dogs breakfast of my making. I'd checked it before making the post as well :eek: Anyhow, yes, indeed it seems he was in E2 . Does this mean he has a Submarine Card? I'm afraid the codes, 160410 etc have me mystified...any idea as to their purpose, what they inform of? As for "Naval Camp" , I have never seen that term before. Quite puzzling actually. After all, I'd assume any naval establishment would have a name akin to a ship, and that be used. Very puzzling. Tanks again, Cheers, Nigel

Nigel, quite understand re the number - I `does-it-all-the-time' !! As to 160410 - all dates in reverse order - 160410 = 10 April 1916 - it makes it easy(er) to `collate' etc when men were serving together and so on. YES, he has a Submarine Card should you wish to see I could post here for you. Naval Camp - No, I must admit that I have never seen that before ! Perhaps it alludes to time spent in camp ashore under the auspices of EUROPA - only my supposition you understand !! TANKS ??? - remember this is a SHIP Forum - well RN did have Landing Craft(Tank) - SO !!! Ho-Hum !!!! Sadsac

Thanks Dennis. Yes, indeed, if you could post Bounds's card, that would be great, the first documentary evidence he was in E2. I gather, till now , that his E2 service has been anecdotal. As for "Tanks"..well, that I partly put down to my "seemed a good idea at the time £2 keyboard" . Most very cheap keyboards are fine...this one is a dog though. :( Still, enough of excuses ...any sign of Alf Collins? Or is he one of the many off radar? Tanks again... Cheers, Nigel :eek: P/S As for "Naval Camp" ..I've seen several S/R where a man has served ashore and there is a purpose made "Rubber stamp" to this effect. So indeed, a very puzzling term.

Nigel, TANKS for yours !!! Here is card for Collins ; COLLINS ALFRED PO TGM D/J 5203 NE RN 190892 090415 TC 150409 DOLPHIN 150428 PACTOLUS 150924 ARROGANT SC 161005 DOLPHIN LTO 161008 LENT VERNON SC 161202 DOLPHIN K3 170103 FEARLESS SC 170327 FEARLESS FOR TGM 180603 DOLPHIN LENT VERNON 180615 FOR TGM ADDL 181116 DOLPHIN H51 181125 PEMBROKE YARD H51 190704 MAIDSTONE H42 200728 MAIDSTONE HASLAR 210602 HOSPITAL SC 210610 MAIDSTONE L5 211008 TITANIA AMBROSE L20 240625 TITANIA SC 250325 TITANIA ADDL 250716 DOLPHIN GENERAL SERVICE 230925 C S EXPIRES 190832 SENIOR IN RATING 170712 AB ADM 188/657 P.o.B ; Andover Hants D.o.B ; 19 August 1892 190892 is D.o.B 090415 is date of joining submarines. Actual card for Bounds comes later.

Thanks again Dennis. So Collins is indeed on radar. No mention of K6 though..in his (I assume) card details. Might just be a mis read on his 188 record though. I'll have to chase it down and check out. Yes, Bounds's card would be great. Thinking on, I've also recalled I have another medal somewhere to a man lost on one of the "H" boats . From memory he only served on that class, but I'll dig out his details , see if there is anything else boat wise that relates to him. After all, I had not the foggiest notion that Cullen was in "C" boats untill his card details came to attention on here. :) Cheers, Nigel

Hello Nigel, to my shame I cannot find the actual card for Bounds - will keep looking. But as a penance, here is actual card for COLLINS ;
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Thanks Dennis , a busy card by looks of it. The "H" boat man I have the medal too...appears to be K/10819 A W Howe. He was lost in H3. I believe they struck a mine while dived , probing the defences of an enemy port/installation. Any idea if he was in any other boats? I'm 99% certain that his 188 series S/R only shows the one boat. (H3) Cheers, Nigel

Nigel, yes, he was `only' H3. Will search out further details if required. Arthur William HOWE Stoker ADM 188 / 888 D.o.B ; 14 July 1890 P.o.B ; Kilburn London

????? I could have sworn I replied to this....Yet the post has disappeared. :eek:

Anyhow, thanks again Dennis Very tragic in the case of Howe, lost in his first and last boat. Sadly all too common. A reminder of the risks that the early submariner's took. I've always felt the accidents were the worst thing of all, but being pioneers of something new or relatively new has always had a lot of risk. Just the same for early aviators and suchlike. It would be an interesting statistic to know just how many men actually served in boats in the first 10 years and what percentage of them were lost . It would still be too many, but I'd guess that the actual percentage would be quite low. Any luck with Bounds's card? Cheers, Nigel

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