HMS Renown and Repulse VS. Prinz Eugen - World Naval Ships Forums Archive (Page 2)

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HMS Renown and Repulse VS. Prinz Eugen - World Naval Ships Forums Archive (Page 2)

HMS Renown and Repulse VS. Prinz Eugen (Page 2)

Posts 51 to 93

Ok guys how did the British navyu get germany high seas fleet to scapa flow, i know this is going off topic, but its kind of the same issue with PE, as well? Nikki

The german navy sailed them there.

ok, i was thing britain, had crews on them to right? i found this on a website and i dont know if we can put on here, if it off another site: In accordance with the terms of the Armistice, the German High Seas Fleet had not surrendered but had sailed into internment at Scapa Flow in November 1918. i dont know what they mean by this? Nikki

Exactly what I said in my earlier post. Germany had lost the war, they knew this and asked for an Armistice ( a Cease fire agreement) however the surrender terms still had to be worked out. The germans agreed to sail their ships to where the British could watch them to ensure they could not sail away and then restart fighting. The terms of surrender were signed on 28th June 1919. The germans scuttled their fleet the week before on the 21st.

ya but how do you watch 74-ships, and all that, you know.. Nikki

Quite easy to do in a closed anchorage with the whole british home fleet there and the majority of the crews taken off the german ships.

The naval terms of the Armistice can be found here: [url]http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/armisticeterms.htm[/url] The British orders for a sailing of a portion of the High Sea Fleet into internment, "Operation ZZ", can be found here: [url]http://www.gwpda.org/naval/opzz.htm[/url] Simon

thanks guys, i have to remember that WW 1 and WW2 are the same war, just 20-year between them, right? Dose anyone know about Bayern and her sister, Baden. Nikki

"Bayern" was scuttled on 21 June, raised in September, 1934 and broken up at Rosyth in 1935. "Baden" was scuttled but before she was sunk a party of men from "Ramillies" under Commander Hubert Ardill helped stem the flooding and she was beached. She was refloated and tested to death, being sunk by gunfire as a target in 1921. Simon

Who was the german ship sank in the Chesapeake Bay! Nikki

That would be S.M.S. "Ostfriesland", sunk on 21 July, 1921 off the Virginia Capes. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Ostfriesland[/url] Simon

thinks harley.. guys what were the odds against PE like 100-to-one Nikki

More like 101 to 1 !

I have just one thing to say to that:P. why not just boated her on mass and take over the ship and get the crew in he hold, have Helmuth and his Officers on thee bridge under watch and the crew in the hold under watch, then once the towline are on put the engines on so it was like going the she being towed? NIKKI

Nikki, I don't mean to be rude here but it would [I]really [/I]help if you could run a quick spell check on whatever you write before posting. TIA

Sorry kev! Nikki

I think that you have to realise a couple of things Nasaan 1) We were at War. The Hood had been sunk with massive loss of life. The Bismarck or any German ship could not be allowed to wander around the Atlantic which was Britains life line. If the P.E., Submarine or any other enemy warship came over the horizon, they would have been sunk, Irrespective of what their intentions were (Belgrano comes to mind). They were a threat to the fleet and would be eliminated, unless they were to surrender (most unlikely). Also. The British moral was pretty low at the time and the sinking of the pide of the Royal Navy (Hood) did not help one bit. It was devastating to the British when she blew up. Nothing less than the sinking of the Bismarck and anything else in the vicinity would do. As far as the survivors of the Bismarck is concerned. If it was safe for them to pick up all of the survivors, I am sure that they would have done so. The were no medals given out to Admirals/Captains who allowed their ship to get sunk picking up friendly survivors let alone the enemy.

qprdave, i know everyone thing, im crazy. But IF PE what do her Brother's aid, what would happen? Nikki

No question. She would have been sunk

If Renown and Repulse went up against PE, could they handle her, and get a tow line on her to keep her from helping her brother Bismarck. My point has been Dont Sink her, just Keep her away, so Bismarck gets sank, but she get captured? Nikki

I am sure that the German Navy was like the Royal Navy. She would have fought. The only thing that would have stopped her getting sunk would have been surrendering. That wouldn't have happened. Don't forget. There were British Aircraft Carriers in the area. They might have attacked first. The Royal Navy were at sea to do two things. Protect shipping and sink the enemy.

what if that was the only way topertect his ship and Crew, would her CO, so it. Nikki

Well......Look at it this way. Bismarck had ample opportunity to surrender. She didn't. She went down fighting. But before she was finally cornered, she run. That doesn't mean the Officers and crew were cowards. She went down in the great tradition of all Brave sailors on both sides.

Ya, but it didnt have to end that way for her. If Ernst Chose to scuttle her and most of her other crew when with PE, what would have Happened? NIKKI

I don't know that they didn't scuttle her. Just think of the propaganda that the British would have if they towed it back to Portsmouth. The Germans at the time were very adverse to bad propaganda. They might even had her sunk by U-Boat rather than the British getting their hands on her.

James, didnt fine any torpedo holes in the hull of the ships! Nikki

[url]http://www.kbismarck.com/histoperi.html[/url] It says that two Torpedoes were fired by the Dorsetshire and one on the other side

YA, none got past the Torpedo bult! Nikki

Nikki, if you look at the sunken wreck of Bismark, you will see a massive hole on the upper deck, amidships where the catapult went across decks. That's one of Dorsetshire's torpedo hits. Bismarck was listing badly at the time, with the upper deck partially awash. Hence also the other two hits, fired from the other side, must be beneath the hull. As she is sitting upright on the mud, they will be underneath her. We can't even see the hole that the swordfish torpedo made on the stern as that has dropped off somewhere. Talking about the PE towing Bismark, it would have been almost impossible with the rudders jammed at 15 degrees. Every time the tow came on, round she would go again. Bismark's engines were completely undamaged, yet all they could do was get her nose back on course. Soon as they went ahead on the engines, round she went. It was that torpedo hit that doomed Bismark. Capture was unthinkable. You might just as well ask "Why didn't Hood surrender to Bismark to avoid all those deaths?" 70 years ago, it just didn't happen. People didn't do that sort of thing. That's why we have terms in our modern language like 'rear guard' and 'forlorn hope'.

here what make me mad, is people who thing her Commander was dumb for try staying on the top spped of 30-know, if she had, she would hae ran out of fuel, right? Nikki

Men have gone to sea and fought in their navies without a thought of surrendering.. The acts of bravery and supreme sacrifice was something that inspired the country and all other sailors. If the British moral hit almost rock bottom when the "Mighty Hood" went down can you imagine what it would be like if she had surrendered. I guess, with the Hood, time was a factor and I think that she wasn't that badly damaged before she blew up. Someone will tell me if she was still a strong fighting unit until that time. I am sure that when a ship went into a fight, the thoughts of many sailors were "remember the Hood, Glowworm, Acasta, Rawalpindi" etc. I am not being flippant when I say that no sailor wants his ship to be outdone by another. He will fight to equal or outdo the great ships that went before. While there is a gun to fire and a deck to fire it from, the sailor will fight!!!!!!! [B]And long may that continue!![/B] I was in the Royal Navy in peacetime and all of us were fully aware and proud of the traditions of the Royal Navy and of the men that went before us.

qprdave, dont get me wrong ok, i know PE, wasnt going to with out a fight, but if hel felt like there was only one way pr keep, his crew alive, would he, have given her up? Nikki

One answer NO. He would have run and fought another day. The Royal Navy in that area was so strong, Not only would it have been suicidal but downright stupid. Bismarck was beyond saving. The ships that I mentioned fought and were sunk protecting something, Convoy, carriers. They were not stupid. It may have been suicidal but they were doing the job that they were ordered to do.

qprdave, dont get me wrong ok. but the same thing i told my other friend, every one is underestimating her. Nikki

[quote=NASAAN101;53603]qprdave, dont get me wrong ok. but the same thing i told my other friend, every one is underestimating her. Nikki[/quote] No underestimating her, Nikki. She also didn't have a top speed of 30 knots anymore. She had suffered propellor damage against ice when she came through the Denmark straits. AND, she was low on fuel. No, if you want to look at some one performing above and beyond the call of duty, perhaps we should look at Admiral Lutjens. It was he who gave PE the chance of life by sending her away when he did, and then turning against his shadowers so she could get away cleanly. The British didn't even know she had slipped away. That was almost akin to Vice Admiral Spee sending his light cruisers away whilst his heavy ships turned and fought. That was bravery. No thoughts of surrender. Its on acts like that when legends, and reputations, are made.

I thing they did, she narrowly avoiding several British heavy units which were looking for her bigger Bismarck, then she arrived at Brest, France, on 1 June 1941. i was asking myself this,were Kurt and Otto with the twins when they were in brest, or were they about to go back to germany and see there familys. Nikki

Here's one especially for Nikki [ATTACH]48541[/ATTACH] Prinz Eugen and Admiral Hipper at Lofjord Norway regards
Attachments :

A great painting Jim - I am sure she will love it. I did!

Jim, that a nice pic.. is that a drawing? who is PE and who is hipper? Nikki

Hi Nikki I painted It the day before yesterday, P.E. is the ship to the left, and the one to the right is the Hipper. the black dots are the Buoys supporting the anti torpedo nets, Pe had been torpedoed by a british submarine (can't remember the name at the moment.) and she went into the fjord to wait for the repair ship to come and fix her up.

Vegaskip, that was the only time they were together, right? o guys, i be told its PG not PE! Nikki

Don't Know too much about the history of either ship, but if you want to see another painting with PE in it go to 'Every thing else' Jims Ship Paintings, Page ,13 #305 this shows H.M.S. SUFFOLK sighting BISMARK and PRINZ EUGEN.

Jim, thanks for the photos, there both good.. Nikki

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