RN Frigates: Destroyer Conversions (Type 15) - World Naval Ships Forums Archive (Page 2)

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RN Frigates: Destroyer Conversions (Type 15) - World Naval Ships Forums Archive (Page 2)

RN Frigates: Destroyer Conversions (Type 15) (Page 2)

Posts 51 to 100

Perhaps I am living my (mispent) youth but the subject of the Type 15's is quite interesting and I am searching for more piccy's etc. Here's a gem I discovered. If it comes up alright it should be readable. Here goes!
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Ah, whatever happened to 'Sippets' ?? Only seem to get bread rolls these days!! Regards Buster

Jackstay Transfer between two Type 15's For non-naval types this was a means of transferring people and small stores from one ship to another. Here the photographer is on Virago. I think the other ship is Venus but her pennant number is obscured. It looks like lower deck has been cleared. Not Under Control balls can be seen on the Port yardarm. All this required a cool head on the bridge and a steady hand on the wheel - always the Coxswain. Again, n-n types should know that the wheel house is below so the Coxswain cannot see the other ship, relying only on orders from the bridge. The photo with the twin 4" gun shows two scuttles (portholes) just above the waterline. On Virago this was the Ship's Company Stokers Mess with the Electrical Mess on the Port side. The last picture is in Virago, in the Burma Road (main passageway) looking aft and the open hatch is to the Stokers and Electricians Mess.
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Great pictures Allan, always more interesting when there was a bit of slosh running between the two ships. I have to say you were lucky on the Virago having that nicely fitted Wilton carpet down the Burma Road!! Regards Steve

Great shots but surely the ship shown isn't a Type 15, she has her original destroyer shape.

[QUOTE=oldsalt;152369]Great shots but surely the ship shown isn't a Type 15, she has her original destroyer shape.[/QUOTE] Not sure what you mean there Keith. the Type 15 were converted V&W Destroyers so they were just reconfigured.- that hatch shown in picture 4 was originally on open deck giving access to the after accommodation, tiller flat and emergency Wireless compartment. Some said they were always a bit top heavy after conversion but I remember the Undine as being a pretty good sea boat. Dave H

[QUOTE=oldsalt;152369]Great shots but surely the ship shown isn't a Type 15, she has her original destroyer shape.[/QUOTE] Nope sorry its a converted V&W as Squirrell said possibly Venus as we spent our days(Virago that is) exercising with Venus and if you look on the funnel there is the Lighted torch of the Dartmouth training squadron. As for the Axminster down the Burma way deep joy deep pile!! So you were onboard for Christmas day a Allan? You lucky old Toff!

You are correct, I don't know the front from the back. However , the original destroyers were not V&W's, those ships were built between the wars. This type destroyer was built during the war & were Emergency class destroyers. :o:o:o

[QUOTE=oldsalt;152390]You are correct, I don't know the front from the back. However , the original destroyers were not V&W's, those ships were built between the wars. This type destroyer was built during the war & were Emergency class destroyers. :o:o:o[/QUOTE] I'll go along with that Keith, there were in fact the "R""U""V""W" all converted to Type 15's but I think, and it is only me, they were generally known as the "V&W's". No mind, they were still good ships which seemed to last longer than the stuff being built today. Dave H

Hello gentlemen, Some of you are right and some of you are wrong. There was a class of destoyer dating from the Great War known as the 'V&W' class. However, the Type 15 frigates were converted from a later class known as the 'Emergency' class of destroyers, all built during the "2nd World War. In fact, Virago was 'laid down' in 1942 the same year as me! After the war, there was a serious threat from Soviet submarines which, because the Russians had nicked the technical know-how and some engineers and scientists as well, were becoming faster and harder to detect and a new and fast A/S frigate was needed urgently. As a 'stop gap' a lot of these Emergency class destroyers were converted into frigates. They were stripped right out and down to hull level and then a new superstructure was built on. My picture of, possibly, Venus, shows both the original and the subsequent outline. No longer was there any need to go on the upper deck to move from forrd to aft. I thought they were good 'sea boats' and comfortable. Sleeping accomodation was in hammocks with 22" allowed per hammock - the same as the Georgian Navy of Nelson and Collingwood! Retaining their destroyer boiler rooms and engine room with two turbines and two screws gave them a fair old speed compared with the conventional Frigates which had reciprocating engines. They were also given an enclosed bridge and some, including Virago, had a periscope on the bridge 'roof' which wasn't much use for anything other than gazing at the Wrens quarters at St. Budeaux. Joking aside, the Wilton carpet down the main passage way is, of course Pusser's canvas to keep the corticine deck covering clean. Note the wealth of Damage Control equipment; there is a locker on the right containing Breathing Apparatus; next to it a Fire Extinguisher and refills in a rack just above it. On the after bulkhead is an Emergency Cable run coiled round brackets. Fred and I knew all about these Emergency Cables. Because this is a Damage Control Station there is a sound powered telephone opposite the camera. Fred, I guess this piccy was taken from just above the After Switchboard or was it by the 4" magazine? And, Fred, if you look at the Christmas Menu you will see that we actually had Chrstmas Day in Gib. some days earlier. I think you had gone to Collingwood by then. I managed this trip to Gib, without getting run over by the Shore Patrol wagon!!!!!!!!!

Sorry at the risk of sounding pedantic the type 15s were made up from a variety of class's [B]Zambesi class[/B] Zambesi Zealous Zebra Zenith [COLOR="Red"][I]Zest[/I][/COLOR] Zodiac Myngs Zephyr [B]Wager Class[/B] Kemphelt Wager Wessex Whelp [COLOR="Red"][I]Whirlwind[/I] [I]Wizard Wakeful Wrangler[/I][/COLOR] Valentine Class [COLOR="Red"][I]Venus Verulam Viglant[/I][/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"][I]Virago Volage[/I][/COLOR] [B]Ulster Class[/B] [COLOR="Red"][I]Ulysses Undaunted Grenville Ulster Undine[/I][/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"][I]Ursa Urania[/I][/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"][I]Urchin[/I][/COLOR] [B]Troubridge Class[/B] Teazer Tenacious [COLOR="Red"][I]Troubridge[/I][/COLOR] Tumult Termagant Terpisichore Tuscan Tyrian [B]Rotheram Class[/B] Raider [COLOR="Red"][I]Rapid[/I][/COLOR] Racehorse Rotherham Redoubt [COLOR="Red"][I]Relentless[/I] [I]Rocket Roebuck[/I][/COLOR] The destroyers in italics/red where the ones I know that were converted to Type 15s ie I may have missed some. Info as per Jane's Fighting Ships 1946.

Fred, you are quite right! But what happened to the ones that weren't converted - scrapped presumably? Squirrel

Some of the Troubridge Class were designated as Type 16, a more modest and cheaper conversion, mainly weapons and equipment as far as I recall. Not sure about the fate of other ships that didn't make Type 15 status. Regards Buster

Of the "R" class, RACEHORSE was scrapped as a destroyer, the other three unconverted ships went to the Indian Navy. Seven "T" class (all except TROUBRIDGE) were converted to Type 16 frigates. Two of the "W" class (KEMPENFELT and WAGER) went to Yugoslavia, and the other two (WESSEX and WHELP) went to South Africa. Two of the "Z" class (MYNGS and ZENITH) went to Egypt, another two (ZEALOUS and ZODIAC) went to Israel and the other three (all except ZEST) were scrapped as destroyers. TimS

Thanks Tim, so spread far and wide and I guess some of the conversions went on to other navies when the RN had done with them. I always thought the Type 15 was a good looking ship although a bit cramped to serve on, I was a big boy for my 22 inches of hammock space!! Regards Buster

At least on a Type 15 you could sling a hammock in the Burma Way.

Addition to my former posting Zambesi class Zambesi Scrapped 1959 Zealous To Israel 1955 became Elath Zebra Scrapped1959 Zenith To Egypt 1955 became Fateh Zest Type 15 Zodiac To Israel 1955 became Yaffa Myngs To Egypt 1955 became El Qahar Zephyr Scrapped 1958 Wager Class Kemphelt To Yugoslavia 1956 became Kotor Wager To Yugoslavia 1956 became Pula Wessex To South Africa 1950 became Riebeck Whelp To South Africa 1953 became Simon Van Der Stel Whirlwind Type 15 Wizard Type 15 Wakeful Type 15 Wrangler To South Africa 1950 Vrystaat Valentine Class Venus Type 15 Verulam Type 15 Viglant Type 15 Virago Type 15 Volage Type 15 Ulster Class Ulysses Type 15 Undaunted Type 15 Grenville Type 15 Ulster Type 15 Undine Type 15 Ursa Type 15 Urania Type 15 Urchin Type 15 Troubridge Class Teazer Type 16 Tenacious Type 16 Troubridge Type 15 Tumult Type 16 Termagant Type 16 Terpisichore Type 16 Tuscan Type 16 Tyrian Type 16 Rotheram Class Raider To Indian Navy 1949 became Rana Rapid Type 15 Racehorse Scrapped 1949 Rotherham To Indian Navy 1949 became Rajput Redoubt To Indian Navy 1949 became Ranjit Relentless Type 15 Rocket Type 15 Roebuck Type 15

Wrangler was RN until 1957, this thread could go on forever.

Just for completeness of the above list: HMCS Crescent DDE 226 - "CR" Class (the only "C" converted) scrapped 1971 HMCS Algonquin DDE 224 - "V" Class scrapped 1971 HMAS Queenborough F02 - "Q/R" Class scrapped 1974 HMAS Quadrant F01? - "Q/R" Class scrapped 1962 HMAS Quiberon F03 - "Q/R" Class scrapped 1972 HMAS Quickmatch F04 - "Q/R" Class scrapped 1972 All of these were variations on the Type 15 design, converted in their respective countries. I may be biased, but I think the Canadian version was the most effective. On the other hand, it could start an argument.

Just completed a tour of all the pics in this thread.... fantastic!!! If any member has any pics available of Grenville F197 and Undine F141 in their guise as trials ships for Comms, Radar or Electronic Warfare equipment then posting of same would be much appreciated. Q. Why???? A. For the thread about variations in aerials/arrays on ships of a class or sub group, these would be invaluable. However, any pics of the Class would be appreciated, Q. Why???? A. Because in any guise this Class often display equipment which was the beginning of things to come in the second half of last century!!! I have established two such pics from this thread at this viewing!!! Little h

I have a couple of pictures - one of Urania at sea and the other of Ursa comig alongside her in Lisbon.
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Thanks Bonzo all pics appreciated. Little h

Just came across this thread, I was on the Rapid when it was a tiffie apprentice training ship doing day runs out of Rosyth. I was told it could only day runs as it didn't have enough radar sets to go out of sight of land. I was one of the apprentices doing the dogsbody jobs so if I remember correctly there were 2 stints. A week or so of sea experience and then a year or so later on several months getting experience of general sea running operating and maintaining machinery. I can always remember going very fast down the Firth, I was on the quarter deck trying to paint the bollards (so must have been sea experience week) and cursing all the smuts that landed on my fresh clean paint. The other thing I remember was the tremendous wake that was a good 6 foot higher than the level of the deck. I'm not sure if that was when the 'race' was on, or the skipper was late for a date somewhere! I visited HMS Cavalier in later years when it was parked at Brighton and remember seeing the video of the race. I've still got the guidebook from the visit somewhere. Here's a photo of some of my class mates and the ship itself [url]http://www.s61.org/photographs/caledonia/rapid.htm[/url] [url]http://www.s61.org/photographs/caledonia/rapid1.htm[/url] [url]http://www.s61.org/photographs/caledonia/rapid2.htm[/url] [url]http://www.s61.org/photographs/caledonia/rapid3.htm[/url] [url]http://www.s61.org/photographs/caledonia/rapid4.htm[/url] A long time ago.

Thanks for the photos, etc! When were the guns removed from Rapid? These conversions have always fascinated me, and certainly looked to have been a good value for the time period. How did crews and officers view their capabilities? DFO :D

Whilst I never served in a Type 15, I did do ship-keeping onboard URANIA when she was 7 day Reserve at Plymouth. Also acted as towing crew when she was taken to Rosyth for refit (why she couldn't be refitted at Plymouth I know not). We were manhandling an inflatable liferaft (in it's non-inflated state of course) through the Burma Way. It got caught on some bulkhead projection. "Two-Six heave" said the Killick. We 2-6'd and heaved.......Hiissssssssssssss! Ever seen a liferaft trying to inflate in the Burma Way of a Type 15? Interesting! :D However nice to see pictures of what URANIA looked like when in commission! :)

My first commision was on URSA Type 15 in 1955 as a Stoker and as I remember the Stokers mess was directly under the ships main weapon the Limbo I think it was called, it replaced the traditional depth charge and when it fired we lost many of the messdeck lights. Brian

A photo of 3 Type 15's alongside H.M.S.Vanguard believed to be in the 50's? The caption on the back of the photo says L to R: Venus, Virago & Verulam.
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Confirmed. Early 50's because Verulam [F29] went into reserve in late 54 and Virago and Venus joined the 6th FS. Dave H

Great pics, Loadsman!

now that really introduces some scale to things, can't recall how heavy Vanguard was but remember Scharnhorst was 46,000 tonnes depending on load and it was the sisters of these little emergency destroyers that so damaged her the big ships could catch up and pound her to pieces again; all in the dark, snow and force 10 gale, driven fron an open bridge.....think about it

52000 t fully loaded or there abouts. I can't even get close to imagining what it must have been like. We have it so lucky these days.

Thanks for confirming that Dave, much appreciated! & thank you too Shinysheff :) & doesn't it just Tim! Can't even start to imagine how hard it must've been for them all!

In regard to the race between Rapid and Cavalier. The Imperial War Museum holds a copy of the video. There appears to be no sound, but footage of both ships including scenes in the engine rooms - which should send the ex-stokers into raptures. [URL="http://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record.php?id=100020734&media_id=360"]HMS Cavalier versus HMS Rapid, July 1971.[/URL] Peter

It certainly sends this old stoker into raptures Peter. I could name every rating featured down below on CAVALIER. Particularly the boiler front stoker, Shiner Wright, an excellent lad and one who was drafted to ARK ROYAL with me on decommissioning CAVALIER. On the day I was Plummer Block safety number and would visit the quarterdeck every 15 minutes to observe progress. It was inconcievable how RAPID pulled away so quickly at the start, but I suspect I know the reason.:rolleyes: Thanks for supplying the link as it takes me back forty years. Sandy.

Been after this for years! very many thanks Peter, i will order the original immediately. tim

Pleased to have been of assistance, Tim and Sandy. It's a very interesting film. Perhaps it could be edited and copies sold by the Cavalier Museum to raise funds (or, perhaps they do already). One thing puzzled me about the blurb to the film. It inferred, if I haven't misunderstood, that the crew of the Rapid crowded onto the quarterdeck in order that their weight would make the screws go deeper and "bite" the water better to give more speed. Is that possible? Also, it names the race adjudicating officer as Instructor Lieutenant S. Salt. Would that be the late Admiral Sam Salt former skipper of HMS Sheffield during the Falklands War? Peter

Peter, in answer to both of your questions: Firstly, I don't personally believe that the moving of a section of the ships company to the quarterdeck made the slightest bit of difference. If a ton of fuel or water were moved aft for instance, perhaps it may have made a little difference if the ship is not under way. However, HMS RAPID, at the time, was doing circa 32 knots, and in my limited knowledge of hydrodynamics, the hull would have been sucked as low in the water as was possible for these ships. (This is the theory, the greater the speed through the water, the greater the displacement). Secondly, it may very well have been Sam Salt of the SHEFFIELD. The combined full power trial took place 11 years prior to the Falklands Conflict, so there may have been time for the officer concerned to have earned promotion to Captain RN. However, I would doubt that an Instructor Lieutenant would qualify that rapidly for a command. I remember that Lieutenant Bacchus on CAVALIER merited rapid promotion to Admiral around the same period. But getting back to the thread proper, the Type 15 in question was not quite as "rapid" as it's counterpart on the day, despite having exactly the same main machinery fit. But the foregoing does not cloud my appreciation of the Type 15 that I served in, HMS UNDAUNTED in 1962. Nor for that matter, the Type 16 I also served in, HMS TEAZER in 1958. Sandy.

thanks for that sandy, in addition to what you said, the rotation of the screws and the way the displace the water behind them is such that they pull the stern of the ship deeper into the water for better bite; I ordered the film, £28-80 so look forward to enjoying it in full quality, will remind me of the dash across the channel in Urchin during the "Great Storm" see earlier posts, at the impressionable age of 15, memories like that stay with you for life! tim

I don't know if moving men aft would effect the ships speed. I do know that in Wrangler we carried out evolutions where the crew all together dashing on order from one side of the deck to the other while she was stopped caused a good old roll. We also carried an evolution designed to assist a ship aground to refloat, half the crew on forecastle the other half aft on the QD, we were ordered to jump up in unison first the forr'd lot the the after half, it gave the ship a rocking motion.

HMS Venus another of the photo's I scanned
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My first ship in 62, sea training. From Hms St Vincent.... Think she was the Dartmouth Squadron with Virago, Roebuck Veralum etc????:mad:

[quote=scouse;10021558]My first ship in 62, sea training. From Hms St Vincent.... Think she was the Dartmouth Squadron with Virago, Roebuck Veralum etc????:mad:[/quote] Hi Scouse, Think you will find Verulam was UDE Trials Ship at Portland. Her attachment if any was to the 2nd F.S under FOST when she wasn't trialling. Dave H [B]Note: UDE = [/B]Underwater Development Establishment

Recall doing my sea training in 1962 on Venus, seem to remember sleeping in hammocks

[quote=peter schofield;10021573]Recall doing my sea training in 1962 on Venus, seem to remember sleeping in hammocks[/quote] Yes we did :eek:

My understanding is that Ulster was the only 15 to have the fixed mounting Bidder E homing torpedo fitted and trialled it. Has anyone got close ups/on board photos of this failed system? You can see them slightly on some photos of Ulster but I've never seen a close up to see what this contraption actually looked like.

Some pictures of Undaunted, type 15, British and Canadian Algonquin, Crescent and Athabaskan at Londonderry, plus Zest as Leader 3rd TS. David
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Jetex: HMC Ships Algonquin and Crescent were non-identical conversions inspired by the Type 15 design. Despite the fact that Algonquin was the former HMS Valentine, a "V" Class destroyer, and Crescent was from the RN "Cr" Class, the RCN designated them as the Algonquin Class once converted. As converted Algonquin had a twin 3"50 cal. mount forward and a twin 4" mount aft. Crescent mounted the same weapons in reverse. Both carried two single 40 mm Bofors in the automated Mark V mounting. Two Limbo mortars became the standard ASW weapon, although Algonquin initially had two Squid mortars. Crescent lost one Limbo mortar when, in 1960, she mounted the Variable Depth Sonar system originally trialled in her unconverted sister Crusader. In addition she was fitted with three launchers for Mark 43 ASW torpedoes. Finally, Crescent had the SPS 12 air search radar while Algonquin had the earlier SPS 6. These ships were not twin sisters! Brian

Brian, thanks for the very full explanation of the origins and development of the RCN ships in my last post. I can see they are not identical by the difference in forward armament. Cousins perhaps? David

David: The RCN was experimenting with Algonquin, Crescent and Sioux in the early 1950s as the service was transformed from a post-war general purpose navy to one focussed on anti-submarine warfare to counter the Soviet submarine threat in the North Atlantic. The Korean War had demonstrated the utility of a robust Destroyer Escort and the seven modified Tribal Class ships allowed for retention of a general purpose capability. The then building but not yet commissioned St. Laurent and Restigouche Class destroyers were optimised for ASW but experience was required and the RN Type 15 and 16 frigates provided concepts for conversion of three of the four Fleet destoyers in RCN service. The electronics, bridge structures, crew accommodation, ASW weapons and guns were a combination of Canadian, UK and US origin ideas and technologies. Many of these ideas and technologies were to be found in the new destroyer escorts commissioned in the 1955-1965 period. It was accepted that the three Fleet class ships were transitional units and indeed Algonquin and Crescent survived until disposed of by scrapping in the 1970-71 period while Sioux paid off for disposal in 1963. I am sure there were people who thought Sioux and the unconverted Crusader (paid off in 1960 for disposal) should have been modernised to the standard of Crescent; however, these ships were not required as the St. Laurent and Restigouche Class ships were commissioning at the very time the conversions would have had to be undertaken. Brian

Another of HMS Verulam.
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