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Naval Uniforms World Naval Ships Forums Archive

Naval Uniforms

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I found this photo with my grandfathers R.N. momentos. I'm not sure if it's one of my family or a postcard of some sort. I think he's wearing some sort of cadet uniform. It's probably about 1910. Any ideas ? Kevin.
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Kevin - I appreciate it takes a bit of getting used to but you seem to have posted this picture in a thread especially used for multi-ship postcards and pictures!! I will move it later on - and let you know by PM where I have put it.

Please see attached photo. I believe that he is Royal Navy and guess end of 19th Century/beginning of 20th Century but I am not sure? Can anyone please advise me when this photo would have been taken? I assume that he is wearing his first GCB just above his elbow, but what is the other horizontal stripe at the top of his arm? I'm not expecting anyone will identify him but if he is your Great Uncle Willie, all well and good! Best wishes
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Its a 'watch stripe' denoting he is in Port Watch, the Photo is pre 1897. Regards Charles

Thanks, Charles! Best wishes

[QUOTE=Joseph;27812]Its a 'watch stripe' denoting he is in Port Watch, the Photo is pre 1897. Regards Charles[/QUOTE] Never seen that before Charles. Does that mean that if he changed to the Starboard Watch he would put it on the other arm/change colour or what ??? Intrigued!!! Gerry

Gerry, Watch Stripes—To be half inch blue jean and red braid respectively; upon the outer part of the sleeve, at the junction of the sleeve and the body, 12 inches in length; blue on white frocks and jumpers, red on blue frocks and jumpers. Starboard watch to wear stripes on the right arm, port watch on the left. Regards Charles

Fascinating stuff Charles, I have to trawl thro` some of my old books as I have genuinely never seen that before ( or I missed it). Wonder when we will stop learning on this Forum!!! Thanks again Regards Gerry

Hey all, Just doing some research on my great grandfather who served as a CPO in WW2 and was wondering about his uniform. The buttons on his tunic, what did they have on them? Crown above a fouled anchor? His CPO buttons on his sleeves, are they the same in design and in size? I have a CPO cap badge however its made of solid metal. I've seen other cap badges that appear to be completely soft, whats the difference? Looking on ebay I found both type with the metal one having the description of "WW2 era economy pattern" I know CPO's had their own mess but did they have a mess kit? Lastly does anyone know where I can get hold of a pair of Chief Stoker CPO collar badges from? I've been searching for ages and just can't find a pair. Cheers EDIT: To sidetrack slightly. I often see photos of new recruits passing out or completing a certain school . In theory should there be one for a class my great grandfather passed out with? Where should I look to find these pictures?

Hencore The answer to your first two questions is YES. The metal CPOs badge was a cheaper option to produce and thus was a wartime issue, when things got back to normal the embroidered badge was issued. Mess kit at the time your ggf was in did not exist. However "mess undress" was introduced in the late 60s and consisted of a "bum-freezer" dinner jacket worn with cummerbund ,dress shirt and bow tie. It was not a compulsory piece of kit but gained popularity in the 70s when it seemed most chiefs had it. Try the specialist badge dealers on ebay ,its not an uncommon badge. As regards the passing out photo it depends where he did his training some establishments had a photographer on site and there are a wealrh of class photos others didnt bother. Hope this helps regards Gerry

Thanks Gerry. All of his training appears to taken place at HMS Victory. Seems hard to find out about anything at the base as searching for Victory gives you the obvious results. If they are common badges I'm doing something drastically wrong. I've been checking ebay for months and nothing. You get the odd Stoker badge, there's a PO stoker badge on there at the minute, but I've never seen a pair of CPO ones.

If you click on to the "New Members" forum on the second page of threads there is one titled "Confusion over HMS Victory". I put this together as many members did not realise that Victory had several outposts. Have you tried the"Shop" part of badge dealers rather than auction items?? Regards Gerry

Unless they have changed the badge recently you should be able to buy it at Slops or a Naval Tailor. You need a collar badge the PO's wear a full size one on the sleeve. Regards Charles

I was doing some research the other night and on one of the sites I was on it listed numerous sets of clothing for various levels / ranks i.e. No 1s, No 2s, No 3s, No4s, etc. 1/ were these issued F.O.C. 2/how many sets were issued of each 3/ likewise the shoe's I also noted with great pleasure that Engineering was the top of a list for coloured inserts on the sleeves to denote trade....which I noted are now abolished....if you can't take it............etc

No.1s was your best uniform. With gold badges. and medals. No.2s was second best uniform but with red badges. This was for Duty i.e. Gangway staff. No.3s was 3rd best uniform. This was worn where uniform was required but may get dirty. For the gods gifted few this was for entering harbour under procedure A & B. (Alpha :- Entering/Leaving harbour where ships company, not required for duty clear lower deck and man the upper deck. Bravo:- Where only the men required for entering/leaving harbour are required. Procedure C:- Only the men required for entering/leaving harbour are required. These are rigged in No.8s) I forget what No.4s are No.6s Full dress White uniform for use instead of No.1s in tropical areas No.8s Dark blue Trousers, Light blue shirt. Used as general working rig. No.10s Dark Blue shorts and No.8s shirt. Used as per No.8s in tropical areas. Sandals were used with No.10s There was also 6As, which, I think, was White front and white trousers and white shoes Issued:- 2pr boots, 1pr shoes, 2 pr Sandals, 2pr white shoes This was in my time 1966-1978

when i joined in 1990 thats about the same set of kit as we were likley to get, but now that we are a penny pinching outfit! New entries get number ones and no number two uniform, number eights are now reduced to being called number fours probably to reflect the fact we have less uniforms! Around the mid 90s we stopped wearing red epaulettes on our shoulders and everyone now has gold epaulettes to reflect their rate and for junior rates so they know what service they are in they get to wear epaulettes with Royal Navy on them. When you get promoted to petty officer you are entitled to get your number ones supplied and fitted for nothing

Well done that man, Hell of a lot of gear to move around when room is at such a premium on board how did you manage to store / clean it all ?

We usually bought our No 1s. from a naval Tailor. I used "Erlich`s" There were a number of tailors throughout the U.K.

[quote=Stan.J;56850]We usually bought our No 1s. from a naval Tailor. I used "Erlich`s" There were a number of tailors throughout the U.K.[/quote] Why....? and how much could that set you back Stan ?

We used to pay by a monthly allotment to the Tailors. I know that it sometimes took a while to complete payment..A lot of money in those days for a young lad. I cant for the life of me remember how much they cost?.Someone else may remember. I am talking about My time..A long time ago!!! 40`s-- 50`s

By the way! the material was far superior to the Issued clothing.I remember Doeskin? We were Jack the lad then. Going ashore in Uniform...I think it would be a good idea if that was allowed again today!

Flemmings Naval Tailors was mine. They would come around the ships after secure and sell you anything you wanted, by installments of course. I think that Officers used Gieves!!!!!!

Having looked up my quarterly doc re emoluments etc (for another thread) I noticed that I 'allocated' a regular sum to my naval tailor Honest Sam Caplan if I remember correctly. I think he had a nissen hut at Mercury at one time:) Bought uniform and civvies out of the sum accrued, also I think that the term was that one alloted an amount come on qprdave help me out mate:confused: Little h

[QUOTE=ivorthediver;56856]Why....? and how much could that set you back Stan ?[/QUOTE] The main reason for buying a uniform from a Naval Tailor was because you only received your initial uniform free of charge. As you grew, or wore out your uniform, you had to replace it yourself. Many people had an allotment (paid so much a month) with a Naval Tailor. Consequently, you could buy a uniform on the "never, never" without having to fork out the whole amount at one time, which you would have to do if you bought it from slops. Naval Tailors also included small embellishments, such as nice blue satin cuffs on the inside of the uniform sleeves, or even embroidered dragons in some cases. None of the embelishments could be seen when the uniform was being worn, but added to your street cred. My Naval Tailor was Bernards of Harwich.

Fascinating .........you realise that any officer I meet know I will be asking "And what embellishments have you got in your uniform jimmy" Better ask it at arms length.... plus some me thinks ! Thanks lads you have never let me down yet and I am very grateful for you sharing these facts with me Kind regards Ivor

QPR in your time blue shorts, shirts and sandals were 10ARs. Little H wasn't the tailor in the Mercury Nissen hut "Daufman"? Most of us bought a "tiddly" suit from the naval tailor to go ashore in. We seemed to take a lot of pride in our appearance back then. Like beeswaxing our silks to make them shine, seven or five knife-edged creases in our bell bottoms, a decent bow wave in our caps and the bow of our cap ribbons tied around an old penny to form it into more of a rosette. There was nobody in the world smarter than "Jack" off ashore on a rig run. Some of the Far East Fleet lads would have dragons on the inside of the jacket cuffs. These they would often turn back. The bright assorted silks of the dragons would dazzle the natives! best wishes Jan

[B]"in your time blue shorts, shirts and sandals were 10ARs."[/B] You're right Jan Wasn't 10s Blue shirt blue shorts dark stockings and black shoes?

Who thought that wearing boots and gaiters with shorts looked stupid???

Almost as silly as seeing the present day female sailors in sailor suits!! best wishes Jan

My allotment was to Bernard's of Harwich and covered all sorts of purchases apart from uniform. While in Chatham on blank week you could order your railway ticket for a Friday while and pick it up from the shop in Military Road on the way to the station. They also had an early version of an Argos catalogue as I used it to buy Christmas presents as well and they would deliver to your home. A related query has come up, partly due to old age and loss of memory, concerning branch badges. At the VE Day do recently there were a number of 're-enactors' (I think that is the correct term) in various uniforms and wartime civvies, including a number of German Panzers who attacked the castle defended by British Infantry. The Germans lost, of course, but it was well choreographed and it was a nice sunny day so they didn't seem too upset. (Stop wittering, you old fool and get on with it). From a distance I spotted a rating in square rig with a propellor on his right arm with a star above and a star below. I couldn't see his left arm so I don't know what rank he held and unfortunately I didn't get a chance to speak to him. Normally a single star above would indicate a Stoker 1 or Leading Stoker and a crown above would indicate a PO or Chief. I assumed that he had got it wrong but delving into some old photos I came across the group photo for the Mechs Course in 1951/52. Down in the bottom right was PO Monroe with a star above and a star below while POs Askew and Thompson next to him have crowns. I have cropped the section from the photo and hope that someone can enlighten me. I ought to know, after all I was in the branch long enough, but I just can't remember and it is annoying me. Ken
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The Badge is for a Leading M.E.M. (Stoker) A leading stoker might have one star because he has just been promoted. He will have to go on course at the end of his time on the ship that he was on when promoted. Also, he might have been demoted for some reason. They might take his "Hook" off of him but not his trade Badge As above. A P/O with 2 stars might have been just promoted and awaiting a P.O.M.E.s course

[quote=qprdave;56963]The Badge is for a Leading M.E.M. (Stoker) A leading stoker might have one star because he has just been promoted. He will have to go on course at the end of his time on the ship that he was on when promoted. Also, he might have been demoted for some reason. They might take his "Hook" off of him but not his trade Badge As above. A P/O with 2 stars might have been just promoted and awaiting a P.O.M.E.s course[/quote] Thanks Dave I'm beginning to warm to you as you are obviously besotted with us Stokers..I feel guilty know for organizing your transfer to Auz to join Harry

It's not only stokers that use the system. Electricians work in the same way. As I was leaving, the seamen were about to do it as well This stopped A/Bs from being senior to L/S in there professional capacity. I was a A/B UC2 and I was senior to a L/S UC3 (one star) in the S.C.R. (Sonar Control Room)

I was a Greenie and one star above branch badge was 1st Class Electrical Mechanic, one star above and one star below branch badge was Leading Hand Qualified, Crown above branch badge was qualified Petty Officer, it was the same for Stokers. It was common to have an Acting LEM with one star above the branch badge, that would be prior to completing his Leading Hands course. Also, an Acting POEL could have two stars and he would get the crown on completion of PO's course. Both Stokers and Electricians, in the 1960's, had short rosters for advancement and it was common to get promoted before completing the qualifying course. Other branches, such as some of the seamen sub specialists, were only promoted into "dead mens shoes". Consequently, three badge killicks, or Leading Hands with a crown above there branch badge were more common in those.

I came across this site a long time ago but I think it is worth sharing as many questions can be answered whilst browsing through it. I think Ivor will find it most interesting. Let me know how you all get on with it. [url]http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html[/url] Regards, Bob.

Thank you very much Bob, I have book marked that for inspection on related items Regards Ivor

In his first post that man ivorthediver makes much of the fact that 'engineering' were at the top for coloured inserts. Strangely, he omits to mention the colour of the engineering inserts, which as we all know were PURPLE - need I say more.........................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mik

[quote=mik43;57000]In his first post that man ivorthediver makes much of the fact that 'engineering' were at the top for coloured inserts. Strangely, he omits to mention the colour of the engineering inserts, which as we all know were PURPLE - need I say more.........................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mik[/quote] Sorry Mik...... run that by me again:confused: Whats wrong with purple am I missing some thing here:(

How can I say this tactfully Purple is the colour that denotes that men like errrrrmmmm other men Mind you!!!!!!!! Purple was the Colour of the Jacobite uprising and showed that you were for Charles Edward Stewart (Bonny Prince Charlie) Soooooo Take your choice!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE=qprdave;56835]No.1s was your best uniform. With gold badges. and medals. No.2s was second best uniform but with red badges. This was for Duty i.e. Gangway staff. No.3s was 3rd best uniform. This was worn where uniform was required but may get dirty. For the gods gifted few this was for entering harbour under procedure A & B. (Alpha :- Entering/Leaving harbour where ships company, not required for duty clear lower deck and man the upper deck. Bravo:- Where only the men required for entering/leaving harbour are required. Procedure C:- Only the men required for entering/leaving harbour are required. These are rigged in No.8s) I forget what No.4s are No.6s Full dress White uniform for use instead of No.1s in tropical areas No.8s Dark blue Trousers, Light blue shirt. Used as general working rig. No.10s Dark Blue shorts and No.8s shirt. Used as per No.8s in tropical areas. Sandals were used with No.10s There was also 6As, which, I think, was White front and white trousers and white shoes Issued:- 2pr boots, 1pr shoes, 2 pr Sandals, 2pr white shoes This was in my time 1966-1978[/QUOTE] The RAN was very much the same qprdave. From memory No 4's was blue suit and collar with that short sleeve blue woolen jumper - mostly worn as night clothing in colder areas. No 10's was white shorts, white front, black stocking socks and black shoes. 10A's was blue shorts (working), No. 8 shirt, black stocking socks and black shoes. Footwear could be relaxed to sandals at sea or in the tropics. There was also 2A's, which was bell bottom (blue) trousers and white front. The tailor of choice for most of the RAN was "Red Anchor". Still going today. I remember the tiddly No.1 suit I had made in Hong Kong. Great piece of gear. Lightweight blue material with button down flap on the trousers instead of a clasp and zipper. Worked a treat at the movies with the girlfriend. ;)

[quote=qprdave;57015]How can I say this tactfully Purple is the colour that denotes that men like errrrrmmmm other men Mind you!!!!!!!! Purple was the Colour of the Jacobite uprising and showed that you were for Charles Edward Stewart (Bonny Prince Charlie) Soooooo Take your choice!!!!!!!![/quote] How strange ..................... I would have associated purple with "mourning" and the "cloth" not shirt lifters [you know laundry people] Why not pink for the "Chosen colour"

[QUOTE=ivorthediver;57022]How strange ..................... I would have associated purple with "mourning" and the "cloth" not shirt lifters [you know laundry people] Why not pink for the "Chosen colour"[/QUOTE] Ivor everyone knows that the difference between Pink and Purple is the strength of your grip! :eek: :o

Ivor being as you are only an honorary matelot we all make allowances for your lack of understanding but I feel that it should be pointed out to you that "Shirt Lifters" had nothing to do with the laundry! That title belonged to men of a different sexual persuasion to the norm. To quote dear Oscar: "Education is a wonderful thing, however, it is worth remembering from time to time that nothing worth knowing can be taught." Keep smiling Jan

Hi Jan. Remember wet weather rig at Ganges. Sports shirt and shorts boots (leather) covered with an oilskin. God knows what number that was. Derek (bunts)

Hello Bunts Yes, I do remember! Didn't we look stunning? Jan

I am still proud to have worn the Navy uniform always felt good going ashore wearing it, several memories come to mind such as trying to get your collar a lighter blue (a little bleach?) any one else do this, also getting the bow wave on your cap, also wearing the black jersey under your top for winter and changing to white for summer, also I think out of the three services werent our boots the only ones without toe caps? or is my memory failing again, I well remember getting my first naval Tailor made to measure uniform? much better material, shaped Bell bottoms etc. we were posers werent we, but I think our uniform gave us an advantage in the pulling stakes,

Don't forget the cap tally bow tied or stitched over the left eye. how jaunty was that. Derek (Bunts)

Just remembered another little dit. When I received my first GCB whilst on the Agincourt 1964 in malta, went ashore that evening in full No 1's dead chuffed, thought I looked the old matelot Derek (Bunts)

Got my last noz one suite from "Tingaling's" in Tamar. Uniform 1965.
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HMS Vivid was the original name of HMNB/RNB Devonport. It was also the Stoker's training school for the command. Name changed to HMS Drake in 1934, and Vivid later became, for a while, the RNR element.

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