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  #26  
Old 10-05-2011, 09:58
Malcolm12hl Malcolm12hl is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

David

The point about the wear and tear on Nagumo's air fleet is an interesting one. One of the often overlooked qualities of his carriers were the incredibly high standards of maintenance the mechanics and other technical staff were able to maintain. One indication of this is the fact that ALL of the aircraft reported damaged on the Colombo raid on 5 April were fit to participate in air ops four days later against Trincomalee and the poor old HERMES.

Malcolm
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  #27  
Old 10-05-2011, 16:38
Rob Stuart Rob Stuart is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

Hi Malcolm,

I agree about your comment about maintenance. Shattered Sword points out that an awful lot of the maintenance staff were lost on 4 June and that this had a serious impact.

My number crunching indicates that the seven D3A and five B5N damaged on 5 April all flew missions on 9 April, but I've been unable to confirm if the five A6M damaged in 5 April were all operational on 9 April. For one thing I don't have complete info on CAP sorties on 9 April and for another some sources say 38 fighters escorted the Trincomalee strike but others say 41. Can I infer that you've confirmed that the five damaged fighters all flew on 9 April?


Thanks,

Rob
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  #28  
Old 10-05-2011, 17:01
Rob Stuart Rob Stuart is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

David,

According to their TROMs (at http://www.combinedfleet.com/lancers.htm#destroyers), AKIGUMO, HAGIKAZE and MAIKAZE escorted Nagumo's tankers. However, the tankers were in company with KdB (or en route to join it) until 2 April, whereupon they and their three escorts peeled off to rejoin later. So until 2 April all 11 destroyers were with KdB. KdB RV'd with the tankers again on 7 April and then separated for the attack on Trincomalee. If my interpretation of events is correct, then KdB probably had only eight destroyers with it from 2 to 6 April and from 8 to 10 or 11 April, but the rest of time all 11 were present.


Rob
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  #29  
Old 10-05-2011, 18:43
Dick Dick is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

Dear Malcolm,

I hope that you have seen this thread:

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forum...ead.php?t=7233

I found this one in my collection - probably also from Bill Somerville at the J-aircraft site. I have it captioned as "Over Ceylon" but you (or someone seeing this) may be able to read Japanese.....

I hope that you will publish your presentation somewhere (perhaps here?) once you have given it.

Best wishes.
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File Type: jpg over ceylon.jpg (92.1 KB, 61 views)
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  #30  
Old 10-05-2011, 19:41
tjstoneman tjstoneman is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

The background to the photo in post #29 is the east coast of Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) looking north, with what appears to be smoke rising from the harbour and dockyard area of Trincomalee. The distinctive shape of the coastline hasn't changed much, so Googlemaps or GoogleEarth will show you the area.
As to whether the photo has been "doctored" to add the aircraft and smoke, or it is in fact a genuine photo from the raid, I leave that to others to comment!
Tim
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  #31  
Old 10-05-2011, 23:29
Rob Stuart Rob Stuart is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

This photo is in Samurai sur Porte-Avions, without the Japanese text. The caption reads "Two of Zuikaku's Kates departing from Trincomalee harbor having just bombarded the port on 9 April 1942.".


Rob
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  #32  
Old 11-05-2011, 01:23
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Hank Hank is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

The appearance off Diego Suarez, Madagascar, 30 May,1942 of Japanese submarines I-10, I-16 and I-20 and the identification of I-10's scout plane as she reconned the area appear to have not generated a response to impending attack.

It appears that Allied naval resource was pulled back intead of moved eastward; many of the aircraft being positioned to attack from land. Can anyone state the chain of events here? The links provided by Rob, valuable a resource as they are, do not state an answer to my question. What are the facts and your thoughts regarding them of the Allied position during the end of May, beginning of April, 1942. What information was provided at this time by Ultra? (I await text on this matter through ILL, interested in what you make of it.)

Research of the Japanese aircraft used in this area of operations through Wikipedia includes many images that may be of use to you, Malcolm
Regards

Later inclusion: Found a site detailling Japanese naval signals: http://sites.google.com/site/davidijn/home

Still later inclusion: A site particular to information regarding Japanese Auxilliary Oilers: Oilers:http://www.combinedfleet.com/Kyokuto_t.htm

Given the mileage of the two passages and the time involved, Rob, the Sunda passage seems the most probable. The passage of both Nagumo's force and the Oilers through the Strait of Malacca would have had the benefit of ground based aircraft protection from Malaysia as well as the debit of possible detection through civilian traffic.

Last edited by Hank : 11-05-2011 at 03:27.
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  #33  
Old 11-05-2011, 02:02
Rob Stuart Rob Stuart is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

Graham,

Re the question of which oiler picked up Gordon and company, Iíve done a number of Google and Google Books searches and found the following:

--the prahu was named Setia Berganti and it left Sasak, north of Padang, on 17 March. It apparently proceeded north up the west coast of Sumatra and then turned west for Ceylon

--while crossing to Ceylon the Setia Berganti came across a group of three Japanese tankers, and Gordon and company were taken aboard one of them. One source says this was the Shinkoku Maru. None of the accounts Iíve seen refer to any escort being present.

Information Iíve previously gathered indicates that a group of three tankers, Kyokuto Maru, Kenyo Maru and Nippon Maru, departed Mako on 24 March and met KdB at Point A, 09S.106E, which is between Christmas Island and Java, on 31 March. If these three ships entered the Indian Ocean via the Strait of Malacca and then headed south for the RV, they could have encountered Setia Berganti en route. However, that route is about 3500 nautical miles and the three tankers would have had to make their top speed of 19 knots all the way to get there on time by that route. It seems more likely that they used the Sundra Strait. This route is more than 1000 miles shorter and was safer for unescorted vessels, so I donít think they encountered Setia Berganti in route to the RV.

Shinkoku Maru sortied from Staring Bay with KdB on 26 March, and was the only tanker in company with it until the other three Iíve named were met at Point A. Refueling was conducted until 2 April, with KdB continuing toward Ceylon. The four tankers then peeled off, escorted by Akigumo, Hagikaze and Maikaze (or possibly only two of these destroyers), and proceeded to the north while KdB went off to attack Colombo on 5 April. KdB RVíd with the tankers again on 7 April, at a position well south of the line between northern Sumatra and Ceylon. When KdB was sighted by the British on the afternoon of 8 April, the day before the attack on Trincomalee, the four tankers were not in company, so they must have separated late on the 7th or earlier on the 8th. The tankers probably rejoined KdB on 10 or 11 April.

From all of the above I would conclude that the tankers encountered Setia Berganti no earlier than 8 April, since they would not have been far enough north to meet until then. Iíd also say that the tankers would have been too far north or east after 10 April to have encountered Setia Berganti, so it looks to me that the encounter was probably between 8 and 10 April. This would also coincide with the second window when the tankers were not in company with KdB. Itís not clear why the people on Setia Berganti did not see the fourth tanker or any escort but one account refers to the visibility being bad and that may explain it.

A lot of the above is a bit speculative but I think itís at least plausible. What do you think?


Rob
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  #34  
Old 11-05-2011, 03:15
Graham Barnes's Avatar
Graham Barnes Graham Barnes is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

Hello,

Re Gordon: Yes, I believe that the prahu saw nothing of KdB proper, just the tankers/oilers. So your reading seems plausible enough. I looked through map coordinates a few years ago when this little question first occurred to me, and had some general idea of where Gordon & co. were captured. (I needed to rule out that he wasn't taken by one of Ozawa's force, that is.) Of course I now wish I had enquired of the man himself in 1995.

Re airstrikes v. Ceylon: Accessing the actual kodochosho for KdB on "C" sakusen is not all that difficult. Wouldn't be too hard to determine how many planes & which types flew that day, etc. (I've already done that for the Darwin Raid & Second Mobile Operation, as well as many Nam'po Butai air-ops before the fall of Java, for example.)

Re precise number of DDs & their ID w/KdB on the operation: I just don't know offfhand.

Below is a wartime propaganda photo from the "Weekly Photographic Journal", taken during "C" sakusen, I believe, and presumably showing the attack & destruction of HMAS Vampire, lower right.
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File Type: jpg Shashin Shu 221 prop photocorps.jpg (70.2 KB, 46 views)
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  #35  
Old 11-05-2011, 12:35
David Verghese David Verghese is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

Malcolm

Returning to your original request, there is some contemporary Japanese film footage on this site link:

http://cgi2.nhk.or.jp/shogenarchives...=y&value=19422

Sound graphics and captioning is in Japanese, but I saw some footage which opens with a diagramatic of the Indian Ocean highlighting Ceylon ie Operation C.

There is a box on the left which shows each year 1940-1945. Each year has multiple footage in 12 sections - which may, or may not, refer to months. Then about 20 pieces of footage come up for any of these 12 sections.
Somewhere in 1942, by clicking through each piece, I found what appeared to be Sakusen C. I lost the specific link, but hopefully you can get there.

If all thread members look - one of you will find it.

Then I am wondering if you can capture the footage. Access to a Japanese speaker would be most useful for translation.

Otherwise I have this photo of a Kate Torpedo bomber (with Type 91 torpedo) which is captioned to be from Akagi in the March-April time frame. It is from the US Nat. Arch.

David
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  #36  
Old 11-05-2011, 16:32
Rob Stuart Rob Stuart is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

David,

I doubt that the photo of the Kate taking off from Akagi with a torpedo is from the March to April period, unless it was a training flight. All the Kates which attacked Colombo on 5 April and Trincomalee on 9 April were armed with 800kg bombs, and the rest of April was spent returning to Japan and fruitlessly searching for the Doolittle task force. Most of March was spent at Staring Bay. I think it has been asserted elsewhere that, with the exception of two Ryujo Kates on 6 April, no Japanese carrier plane dropped a torpedo in anger during the period between Pearl Harbor and Coral Sea.


Rob
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  #37  
Old 11-05-2011, 18:21
Dick Dick is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

The photo of Vampire being sunk at #34 is back to front.
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  #38  
Old 11-05-2011, 20:03
Dick Dick is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

Re David's film find at post #187

1942 4 9 9 seems to be the one:
http://cgi2.nhk.or.jp/shogenarchives...seg_number=001

skipping the first of the five.

Included is a short bit of film of Hermes and Vampire being sunk.
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  #39  
Old 12-05-2011, 12:06
David Verghese David Verghese is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

Dick

Well found. I ended up looking at so many of the individual clips, and attempting to relate them to what I thought they might be, that I lost track of it.
You actually do hear the Japanese pronunciation of Colombo in the second track of the five.

David
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  #40  
Old 15-05-2011, 10:33
Malcolm12hl Malcolm12hl is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

Gentlemen

Picking up on all of your much appreciated posts while I was away on business:

I don't have any definitive proof that all damaged Zero fighters were repaired, but I think it highly likely. Saburo Sakai's well-known epic return to base with serious wounds notwithstanding, a badly damaged Zero was the least likely of the three combat types deployed to be able to make it back to her carrier. The Zero had the least robust construction of the three - it would not have survived anything but mild splinter damage from ground-based AA, but by the same token was the least likely to be targeted or hit by flak. There were no cannon-equipped fighters opposing it in the air, so any damage sustained in aerial combat would only be from .303 machine gun fire.

I would be very interested to hear from anybody who has any of the combat rosters for the Japanese air missions flown on 5 and 9 April. The only ones I have are those which appear in 'Bloody Shambles' and AKAGI's contribution to the strike on the CORNWALL and DORSETSHIRE as printed in 'The Emperor's Sea Eagle'.

As far as the withdrawal of the British fleet East is concerned, Somerville realized that the slow part of his fleet was more of a hindrance than an asset within possible range of Japanese carrier airpower, so he sent the four R class battleships, and their attendant cruisers and destroyers west to East African waters. He kept his faster Force A: the WARSPITE, FORMIDABLE, INDOMITABLE, the cruisers EMERALD and ENTERPRISE, and their destroyers in Indian waters, but withdrew them to Bombay/Mumbai on the west coast of India.

I will not be able to post the PowerPoint presentation and the recording of my talk here as the files will simply be too big. I will happily send them to anybody who has contributed, if they will pay the postage via PayPal and undertake not to use the material for commercial purposes. If you are interested, please contact me directly at malcolm12hl@gmail.com with your name and mailing address.

I will be working on the presentation right up to the end of May, so please do keep the contributions coming in - everything is very much appreciated
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  #41  
Old 14-08-2011, 04:57
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Admiral Von Gerlach Admiral Von Gerlach is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

I translated the titles of the various films and I think this one is the one you may find interesting, it shows the bombing and sinking of a carrier:

1942年(昭和17年)4月28日

http://cgi2.nhk.or.jp/shogenarchives...seg_number=002

the japanese title is:

トリンコマリ洋上で敵空母を撃沈<凱歌高しインド洋>

and it means roughly:

Enemy aircraft carriers sunk at sea [off] Torinkomari

the accompanying text says:

Honesty, and integrity prevailed calm and composed (temper temper), Naval Air Forces cooperated, April 09 over, sea and air together again, a novel strategy has been demonstrated to be extremely solid. Crushed in one fell swoop the military value of Ceylon, ie, 与Ubeku the British fleet in the Indian Ocean [was] hit [by] the powerful residual strength of the sea eagles on the east coast naval base in Ceylon Torinkomari,as it was attacked en masse.

Surprised the enemy do not know the overwhelming strategy, as the plans overlap, the difference in forces is reflected vividly. Higa, Torinkomari this day led to the complete loss of the ability of a military base.

No. 80 001 50 t one hundred enemy aircraft lost and the carrier Hermes taken the fold, the Southern Ocean Torinkomari east, south down to one ship followed the destroyer. It is hopeless. Our air force are taking heart determined to fight, bullets hitting the target, a wreck [is] left in the Indian Ocean which have sunk deep in an instant. Hermes also issue destroyer escort, and sank Aenaku.

勝って驕らず余裕綽々(しゃくしゃく)たる海軍航空部隊は、超えて4月9日、再び海空一体、立体作戦の妙を 極度に発揮しました。すなわちセイロン島の軍事的価値を一挙に粉砕し、残存するイギリスインド洋艦隊に留め の一撃を与うべく、セイロン島東岸の軍港トリンコマリに海の荒鷲、大挙殺到。
重ねての不意打ちに敵はなす術を知らず、彼我戦力の相違はまざまざと表れ、この日トリンコマリは軍事拠点と しての能力を完全に喪失するに至りました。折から敵航空母艦ハーミス号1万8百50トンは、トリンコマリ東 南方洋上を、駆逐艦1隻を従えて南に下る。願ってもない良い獲物。我が航空部隊は勇躍(ゆうやく)戦いを挑 めば、必中の機弾は瞬時にしてこれをインド洋深く沈め去りました。ハーミス号護衛の駆逐艦も、また、あえな く撃沈。

Some of that last paragraph was hard to figure out. This was a very interesting thread and the detail was very intriguing. I have been researching the IJN activity in the Indian ocean and found films taken aboard an IJN submarine that went deep into the Indian Ocean but later than these events. This film archive is very intriguing and I will keep studying them.
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  #42  
Old 15-08-2011, 16:12
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Graham Barnes Graham Barnes is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

Hello,

The "discovery" of IJN sub films is not exactly new or revelatory. These were professional filmcrews dedicated by Japanese propaganda institutions to do precisely that: film IJN sub ops in the Indian Ocean for propaganda purposes. The movie had theatrical release as well; the most famous by far being 1944's "Gochin" ('Attack to Sink') supervided by Watanabe Yoshimi for Nichiei...taken, it is said, from the 4th war patrol of I-10 in 1942, and which may now be viewed on youtube. This was one of three filmcrews sent out on three different IJN sensuikan...
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  #43  
Old 16-08-2011, 19:01
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Admiral Von Gerlach Admiral Von Gerlach is offline
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Default Re: Operation C April 1942: Photographs of IJN Vessels in Indian Ocean,

It was new and interesting to me for sure. I was not speaking or trying to speak for anyone else.

I was fascinated to see the details of daily live on board the sub, including the ship shrine that was given prayers before important events, the bunk area, the daily life including meals of officers and men, that sort of detail plus the action footage was very interesting and informative for it helps understand and gives depth to the whole picture of life for the Japanese naval service and the daily lives and world view of the nation of Japan, ....which helps understand the causes and the nature of that vast conflict that affected so many and so much of our modern history. The ability of old films to help us do all of this is a remarkable gift to the historian.

I have been assisting a team in building 3D simulations of entire IJN subs of a number of classes and searching for interior layouts, deck plans, and photos of interiors has been a challenging task indeed. There is certainly some lingering in archives but it is very hard to access. The overall goal has been to create an actual simulation of a multi year campaign for the IJN submarine service that is accurate and complete as much as possible in dynamic 3D.
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