Newbie - Understanding Naval Records

[Bartym]

Whilst researching my family tree, I hit a blank with Grand Father John Henry Messenger. He was missing from 1891 (age 10) 1901 (age 21) census records. My family has since told me that he ran away to sea at the age of nine - is this likely ?.

I have managed to obtain a naval record for him (attached), could do with help in understanding the information (e.g. List and No. etc).

Another family myth is that he was present during the Boxer Uprising - how do I find out where the ship's location during my grandfathers period of service ?

I apologise in advance but naval records are new to me.

[navalis]

Your grandfather was clearly something of a character .... he seems to have spent a great deal of time in cells, did two whacks in Detention Quarters (90 days and 42 days) and was finally kicked out in 1905 as S N L R - services no longer required ....

His ships?
NORTHAMPTON as a Boy 2nd class from 17 August 1897. She was an old iron hulled frigate built in 1876 and from 1894 used as a training ship at Sheerness.
CALLIOPE (screw corvette built 1884) in January 1898
AGINCOURT (old iron hulled frigate of 1865) in April 1898 - she was then a training ship at Portland.
PEMBROKE - I in November 1898 - shore base at Chatham, then housed in a collection of elderly ships. He was rated Ordinary Seaman at this time
REPULSE (battleship of 1892) from June 1898: he started to get into trouble at this time; note his 'character' dropping from VG (very good) to G (good) and then Fair as he spent time in cells. REPULSE was part of the Channel Fleet at this time.
DIADEM (a cruiser of 1896) in May 1899 now an Able Seaman
BLENHEIM (a cruiser of 1890) in January 1901
finally back on shore to VERNON (Portsmouth) and PEMBROKE.

The List and Number is a pay book reference

[navalis]

I should add that DIADEM was part of the Channel Fleet

BLENHEIM did indeed serve in China - she sailed for the Far East in January 1901, returning in 1904; based at Hong Kong and Wei-hei-Wei

[Bartym]

Thanks for the info. Hopefully, The family has "settled" down now.

We obtained these records from Kew, but are not sure when the records commence. The date and period of C.S. Engagements (?) suggest May 1898, however The period of service suggest the Northampton from 17th Aug 1897 ?

Is it possible to get the invidual ship's records, and are these detailed enough to detail crew lists and possibly explain why my grandfather was in the cells so much ?

Thanks in advance

Barry

[navalis]

He joined the Navy 17 August 1897 - he had signed on for C.S. (Continuous Service) for 12 years, but his 'time' did not start until his 18th birthday, which was 7 May 1898.

No such thing as 'crew lists' exist, and I suspect that you may never know why he was always in trouble. The Ships Logs for the period exist in the National Archives, but I should warn that they are essentially used for recording ships positions, the weather and notable occurrences, not for individual punishments.

[steric]

I too am very new here - today in fact! I too have found my grandfather's naval record (William Riches) and whereas i can figure out much of it I am stumped on a key part of it. I am sure people here will understand it and laugh at my ignorance. OK here goes.

I know he served on HMS Meteor during WW1. I have found out when she was built 1914, and finally scrapped, 1921. When I read his service record, the first column is headed Ship & c served in. I have transcribed the info below.

Ship & C served in
Pembroke
Dido (Meteor)
Dido (Meteor)
Attentive II (Meteor)
Pembroke II
Attentive (Meteor)
Vivid II
Attentive II (Meteor)
Apollo (Meteor)
Vivid (Meteor)
Apollo (Meteor)
Vivid II
Shore File Discharge 30th Jan 1920

Wheras I guess Meteor refers to HMS Meteor, his ship, what do the words not in brackets mean ie Dido, Attentive II,Pembroke II, Attentive, Vivid II, Apollo etc

Also he was a stoker. I imagined him shovelling coal into furnaces, I was surprised to find out theat HMS Meteor was fuelled by Oil. Clearly he wasn't shovelling Oil, so what did a stoker do on an oil fuelled ship of this time?

I hope I have attached his service record as a PDF. Any further illumination or help would be very welcome.

Regards
Steve

[Rob Hoole]

Hello Steve,

These descriptions apply for the First World War.

PEMBROKE: RN Base at Chatham.
DIDO: Depot ship at Harwich.
ATTENTIVE II: RN Base at Dover.
PEMBROKE II: Royal Naval Air Station at Eastchurch, Sheppey although I have also seen this used for various naval bases on the east coast.
APOLLO: Depot ship at Devonport.
VIVID II: RN Accounting Base at Devonport.

More specific information is available if required.

[steric]

Originally Posted by Rob Hoole

Hello Steve,

These descriptions apply for the First World War.

PEMBROKE: RN Base at Chatham.
DIDO: Depot ship at Harwich.
ATTENTIVE II: RN Base at Dover.
PEMBROKE II: Royal Naval Air Station at Eastchurch, Sheppey although I have also seen this used for various naval bases on the east coast.
APOLLO: Depot ship at Devonport.
VIVID II: RN Accounting Base at Devonport.

More specific information is available if required.

Rob,
thanks for the reply.

Do I take it that Royal Navy practice was to assign a person to one of these "bases" or whatever they are and then allocate them to a ship?

How come in all cases the ship shown in brackets is "Meteor". Does this indicate that my grandfather's ship came under different commands at different times? Still don't fully understand.

I am particularly interested in Dido as my own father has retired to live in Harwich by complete coincindence, he would love to know more about his father's service. All my father knew / believed was that my grandfather served on the "Dover Patrol" again whatever that might be.

Sorry to be dull.

Any thoughts on my question about the role of stoker on HMS Meteor?

Regards
Steve

[Scurs]

Steve............




Usually someone would be drafted to a ship (ie...HMS METEOR), that ship, being small and not carrying accountants, would be administered by a HQ Ship or Establishment, depending upon where the ship was serving this could change from time time.

Scurs

[Rob Hoole]

Hello Steve,

Until 1962 every RN shore establishment (stone frigate) had to be associated with a vessel of some sort (a 'Base Ship' or what was later termed a 'Nominated Depot Ship') and took her name as a satellite or 'tender' to this vessel. In practice, vessels normally had their names changed to comply with those of their associated shore bases because they tended to wear out faster. This peculiar custom was a legacy of when anchored hulks served most of the Navy's administrative and accounting needs afloat and the only shore facilities were small outposts or the Royal Dockyards where ships were built and repaired. Any outposts were referred to as 'tenders', as in ships' boats, and this term is still used in the RN today for ships or units attached to commissioned shore establishments or 'parent ships'.

For example, during WW I the nominated depot ships for the shore establishment HMS Pembroke were:

• Sep 1905 to 1 Jun 1917 - Gunboat launched as HMS Trent 1877 and renamed HMS Pembroke Sep 1905. Sold 21 Feb 1932.
  
  
• 1 Jun 1917 to Jun 1919 - Sloop launched as HMS Nymphe 1888, renamed HMS Wildfire Dec 1906, renamed HMS Gannet 1916 and renamed HMS Pembroke 1 Jun 1917. Sold 10 Feb 1920.

So, strictly speaking, officers were 'appointed' and ratings were 'drafted' to nominated depot ship 'X' (associated with the parent base where service records were held and pay and promotion administered) for service in nominated depot ship 'X', associated shore establishment 'X' or administered ship 'Y' (as in the case of Meteor).

Yes, Meteor would have been assigned to the appropriate depot ships/parent establishments as she was deployed to different stations/locations.

As to the Dover Patrol, this from Hutchinson's online dictionary (link):

Dover Patrol

Sub-unit of the British Navy based at Dover and Dunkirk throughout World War I. Its primary task was to close the English Channel to German vessels while escorting Allied ships safely through the area.

The Dover Patrol also mounted fighting patrols against the German-held channel coast and German coastal craft, including two daring raids against Ostend and Zeebrugge 1918. The Royal Naval Air Service unit attached to the patrol also made frequent bombing attacks against Zeebrugge, Ostend, Bruges, and other German-held targets on the channel coast. A naval siege gun force attached to the unit acted as heavy artillery support for the left flank of the Allied armies in France. A total of 125,100 supply ships passed through the area controlled by the patrol during the war, of which only 73 were sunk.

Whatever propulsion machinery was involved, a stoker was essentially an engineering technician responsible for all mechanical engineering aspects on board the ship. During the First World War, members of the Torpedo Branch were responsible for electrical aspects. Even with today's prevalence of gas turbine and diesel-electric propulsion in the RN, ET(ME)s (Engineering Technicians - Marine Engineering) are still known unofficially as 'stokers'.

[steric]

Originally Posted by Rob Hoole

Hello Steve,

Until 1962 every RN shore establishment (stone frigate) had to be associated with a vessel of some sort (a 'Base Ship' or what was later termed a 'Nominated Depot Ship') and took her name as a satellite or 'tender' to this vessel. In practice, vessels normally had their names changed to comply with those of their associated shore bases because they tended to wear out faster. This peculiar custom was a legacy of when anchored hulks served most of the Navy's administrative and accounting needs afloat and the only shore facilities were small outposts or the Royal Dockyards where ships were built and repaired. Any outposts were referred to as 'tenders', as in ships' boats, and this term is still used in the RN today for ships or units attached to commissioned shore establishments or 'parent ships'.

For example, during WW I the nominated depot ships for the shore establishment HMS Pembroke were:

• Sep 1905 to 1 Jun 1917 - Gunboat launched as HMS Trent 1877 and renamed HMS Pembroke Sep 1905. Sold 21 Feb 1932.
  
  
• 1 Jun 1917 to Jun 1919 - Sloop launched as HMS Nymphe 1888, renamed HMS Wildfire Dec 1906, renamed HMS Gannet 1916 and renamed HMS Pembroke 1 Jun 1917. Sold 10 Feb 1920.

So, strictly speaking, officers were 'appointed' and ratings were 'drafted' to nominated depot ship 'X' (associated with the parent base where service records were held and pay and promotion administered) for service in nominated depot ship 'X', associated shore establishment 'X' or administered ship 'Y' (as in the case of Meteor).

Yes, Meteor would have been assigned to the appropriate depot ships/parent establishments as she was deployed to different stations/locations.

As to the Dover Patrol, this from Hutchinson's online dictionary (link):



Whatever propulsion machinery was involved, a stoker was essentially an engineering technician responsible for all mechanical engineering aspects on board the ship. During the First World War, members of the Torpedo Branch were responsible for electrical aspects. Even with today's prevalence of gas turbine and diesel-electric propulsion in the RN, ET(ME)s (Engineering Technicians - Marine Engineering) are still known unofficially as 'stokers'.

Rob,
Thanks very much for the information. If you have got the time and patience to indulge me further perhaps you can tell me the following, or indeed if anyone else can help,

You told me
PEMBROKE: RN Base at Chatham.
DIDO: Depot ship at Harwich.
ATTENTIVE II: RN Base at Dover.
PEMBROKE II: Royal Naval Air Station at Eastchurch, Sheppey although I have also seen this used for various naval bases on the east coast.
APOLLO: Depot ship at Devonport.
VIVID II: RN Accounting Base at Devonport.

My grandfather’s Navy record also seems to mention
ATTENTIVE - is this the same as Attentive II
VIVID - is this the same as Vivid II, RN Accounting Base at Devonport

Further my grandfather’s record appears to me to show that he was discharged from the RN on 30 Jan 1920 and then joined the RFR (Royal Fleet Reserve?) on 31 Jan 1920 and was demobilised from this on 7 June 1921 with a £5 gratuity. It appears he originally signed up for 5 + 7, which I assume means 5 years in RN then 7 years in the reserve. My questions are
1. I can see the 5 years he did with the RN but it seems he did only 18 months with the RFR. I know his ship HMS Meteor was scrapped in 1921 and have read that many RN ships were scrapped in the early 1920s as a result of the Washington Naval Agreement that limited fleets. Is this the reason he didn’t complete 7 years in the RFR?
2. Was / is the RFR the same as the Royal Navy reserve?
3. My father remembers my grandfather later in the 20s, perhaps 1925ish having to go off at various times mainly weekends for service/training with the Navy including being “called up” for the period of the General Strike” in 1926. I haven’t been able to find any records of this. This suggests my grandfather was still serving in some sort of reserve capacity akin to the territorial army today. Can you shed any light or speculate on this…besides the thought that my grandfather may have been using this as an excuse to “get away” from the family for a nice weekend or two away!

Hope you can help,

Regards
Steve

[Rob Hoole]

Hello again Steve,

My main source of information is 'Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy' by Lt Cdr Ben Warlow RN. This states:

Originally Posted by Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy

ATTENTIVE: (1904) Dover, Base Ship
By 10.10.1914 vice ARROGANT and 15.01.15 vice PEMBROKE - 01.16 (became ATTENTIVE II/III (qv)) Cruiser was Flagship of Admiral of Dover Patrol 1914 and hence Base took her name.

ATTENTIVE II: Dover, Base (Office of ATTENTIVE ashore at Dover)
Parent for Auxiliary small craft, Dover WW I - by 12.1914 - Paid Off 31.10.19 - became PEMBROKE V (qv)
ATTENTIVE I and II amalgamated as ATTENTIVE II 01.05.1919
Accounts of Motor Launches from ARROGANT 15.03.19. Flagship of Rear Admiral Controlled Minefields from SURF [also at Dover] 03.1919.
Parent for Destroyers by 1918/19, then all small craft when II and III amalgamated 05.1919.
Nominal Depot Ship: SEARCHER II (1908) Drifter to 25.05.1919
FAIRWIND (1918) Drifter 25.05.1919 - 07.1919
ADDER (ex War Department BURGOYNE) 07.1919 - (sold 1923)

ATTENTIVE III: Dover, Auxiliary Patrol parent
01.1916 ex ATTENTIVE (qv) - 01.05.1919 (amalgamated into ATTENTIVE II)

VIVID: Devonport, RN Barracks
Commissioned 01.01.1890 ex ROYAL ADELAIDE (when task afloat) - Training task Paid Off 01.08.1914 and re-commissioned 13.08.1914, - renamed DRAKE (qv) 01.01.1934
Barracks first occupied 04.06.1889 - was the first shore barracks , even before EXCELLENT
Auxiliary Patrol Depot Ship WW I - included Falmouth to 01.10.15 (then became DREEL CASTLE)
VIVID (1883) Yacht, tender to ROYAL ADELAIDE, Flagship of CinC Plymouth from 01.01.1890 vice ROYAL ADELAIDE.
VIVID ex CAPERCAILZE (1891) 01.01.1892 - 20.11.1912 (sold) - Flagship to 1900
CUCKOO (1873) Gunboat 1911 - 22.1.1919 became VIVID (OLD), sold 1958.
SABINE (ex SABRINA) (1876) Gunboat 22.12.1919 sold 07.22
CAMBRIAN (1893) Cruiser - see also HARLECH 09.1921 - 21.02.23 (sold)
MARSHAL NEY (1915) Monitor 06.1922 - 01.01.34 (Flagship vice EREBUS 19.12.31 -)

VIVID II: Devonport, Accounting Base 1914-1915

VIVID III: Devonport, Accounting Section 09.1917 - 12.18 (at least)

It is quite possible that your grandfather signed on for a further seven years of full service after his basic five; do the dates fit? I always understood that RFR service was a certain period following discharge during which one remained eligible for call-up in an emergency. Further information is available here. The following passage from the National Archives website indicates that the RFR was separate from the RNR and RNVR (link):

Originally Posted by National Archives

The Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve (RNVR) was formed in June 1903 by the ‘Naval Forces Act 1903’. Volunteers joining the RNVR agreed to serve ‘either ashore or afloat’ and consequently performed a wide range of duties. On joining the RNVR, men were assigned to divisions and allocated service numbers prefixed by a ‘distinguishing letter’ indicating the division they had entered. With the outbreak of war in August 1914, volunteers reported to their divisional headquarters. Some men were drafted into ships of the fleet, but many were ordered - together with reservists from the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Fleet Reserve - to join the Royal Naval Division.

Your Grandfather may well have been invalided out or been made surplus to requirement during the inter-war cuts.

[steric]

Originally Posted by Rob Hoole

Hello again Steve,

My main source of information is 'Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy' by Lt Cdr Ben Warlow RN. This states:



It is quite possible that your grandfather signed on for a further seven years of full service after his basic five; do the dates fit? I always understood that RFR service was a certain period following discharge during which one remained eligible for call-up in an emergency. Further information is available here. The following passage from the National Archives website indicates that the RFR was separate from the RNR and RNVR (link):



Your Grandfather may well have been invalided out or been made surplus to requirement during the inter-war cuts.

Rob,
thanks again for all the info, invaluable, partidularly about the RFR and the link. I am subscribed to Ancestry but had not found this myself.

Regarding Pembroke II another source says it was "Believed to be the RN Air Station at Eastchurch, Sheppey June 1913 to 1st April 1918 when it was turned over to the RAF. Other information suggests it may have been the shore establishment at Sheerness (The Nore) as well as a Naval dockyard it was the Naval gunnery school "

Where can I find out more about HMS Meteor and its involvement in WW1. I am guessing there is stuff at the National Archives at Kew but I don't know what or if there could be other sources of info. Any ideas?

Thanks again
Regards
Steve

[Rob Hoole]

Hello again Steve,

Ben Warlow's book has listings (some of them extremely long) for PEMBROKE and PEMBROKEs I, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII and X but there are two listings for PEMBROKE II:

PEMBROKE II: Eastchurch, Sheppey. RNAS 06.1913 - 01.04.1918 then to RAF.

PEMBROKE II: Chatham, Accounting Base By 25.02.1940 - 1957.

In view of your grandfather's association with the 'M' Class destroyer HMS METEOR during this period, it is most likely that the PEMBROKE concerned in his case was the naval base at Chatham or Harwich.

Wikipedia has an entry for the WW I HMS METEOR here. Other sources of information are shown here. The National Archives are worth a look, especially where ships' logs are concerned, but Naval Historical Branch and the RN Museum library, both located in Portsmouth Naval Base, are particularly recommended.

[steric]

Originally Posted by Rob Hoole

Hello again Steve,

Ben Warlow's book has listings (some of them extremely long) for PEMBROKE and PEMBROKEs I, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII and X but there are two listings for PEMBROKE II:



In view of your grandfather's association with the 'M' Class destroyer HMS METEOR during this period, it is most likely that the PEMBROKE concerned in his case was the naval base at Chatham or Harwich.

Wikipedia has an entry for the WW I HMS METEOR here. Other sources of information are shown here. The National Archives are worth a look, especially where ships' logs are concerned, but Naval Historical Branch and the RN Museum library, both located in Portsmouth Naval Base, are particularly recommended.

Rob,
thanks again for all the information. I will follow it up.
Regards
Steve