RN Pennant Number 1944-45

stontamar · #1 27-11-2007, 08:38

Does any member have a copy of, or access to, the US Navy publication DNC.4(A) US Navy Visual Call Sign Book. Edition dated 1 March 1944, as corrected by various NRPMs up to 1946?

Certain ships serving in the Far East during 1944/45 were allocated a range of pennant numbers that differed from the standard Admiralty pennant numbers listed in books covering this period. However very few photographic examples of ships carrying this alternative pennant numbering system seem to exist. The Royal Navy Museum, not surprisingly. are unable to help as they appear to have no knowledge or record of these alternative pennant numbers and the US Naval Historical Centre in Washington DC unfortunately does not hold a copy of DNC.4(A) and they were unaware that it was possibly a US Navy inspired pennant reallocation.

It has been suggested by the US Naval Historical Centre that:

'It was common in the U.S. Navy during WW II to referred to generic types of ships in reports and other communications by their two letter type codes, for example, battleships as "BB"s, carriers "CVs", cruisers as "CAs" or "CLs", destroyers as "DDs", etc.

The Royal Navy's practice of assigning pennant letters by class/flotillas (especially destroyers), instead of types, would be confusing to U.S. Navy personnel. So assigning pennant letters similar to U.S. type codes ("B" = "BB", "C" = "CA" or "CL", "D" = "DD", etc.) would make it far easier for U.S. personnel to know and remember what type of ship it was.

With "C" already assigned to cruisers it could not be used with carriers (U.S. "CV"), so they were assigned "R".'

This does not explain why the same problem would not have been encountered in other theatres and in particular for ship serving on escort duties in the Atlantic and for those involved in the amphibious landings in the Mediterranean and Normandy. It also does not appear to provide a answer as to why the actual use of these alternative pennant numbers seems to have been so sporadic bearing in mind the title of DNC.4(A) appears to suggest their use was for visual recognition purposes.

As a result of a previous posting in Mariners List David Hepper kindly provided a list of pennant numbers allocated to RN, Commonwealth and Allied (non US) ships which had appeared in the Winter 1991 edition of the Warship Journal No. 107. The reference to DNC.4(A) was made in that article.

Does anyone have any further information about their use and why is the photographic record so sparse, the official record missing and their use so poorly documented?

Regards

Dave

AlZictorini · #2 01-12-2007, 20:32

Another one for you to try and get hold of shipmate (The RN Version), “Pendant Numbers 1944-1945” by Lt Cdr. John M Maber RN (retd) Warships Supplement 104 (British Pacific Fleet).

Also have a look at "TASK FORCE 57 The British Pacific Fleet 1944-45" by Peter C. Smith. I think its now in re-print (plenty of good pics).

AlZ

stontamar · #3 01-12-2007, 21:39

Thanks AlZ for your comments. Although I have not read the book I have been advised that "TASK FORCE 57 The British Pacific Fleet 1944-45" by Peter C. Smith does not list these pennant numbers. Perhaps other contribuors can confiirm or contradict this statement.

Regarding “Pendant Numbers 1944-1945” by Lt Cdr. John M Maber RN (retd) Warships Supplement 104 (British Pacific Fleet). I have not seen either this publication or the Winter 1991 edition of the Warship Journal No. 107. Warship Journal No. 107 has, so I am told, a partial list covering Flag Superior 'B' Battleships (although an Australian correspondent later added a list of Austrlian vessels which also carried Flag Superior 'B' pennants), 'C' Cruisers, 'D' Destroyers, 'M' Minelayers and 'R' Fllet and Escort Carriers.

Can anyone advise what is documented in “Pendant Numbers 1944-1945” by Lt Cdr. John M Maber RN (retd) Warships Supplement 104 (British Pacific Fleet).

Thanks

stontamar

jbryce1437 · #4 02-12-2007, 21:15

This is some of them, the original pennant number is to the right, but these are only the destroyers:
D FLAGE SUPERIOR
TEMPORARY No’s OF
British Pacific Fleet 1946

D05 ARUNTA RAN
D11 GRENVILLE R97
D12 KEMPENFELT R03
D13 NAPIER G97 RAN
D14 NEPAL G25 EX-NORSEMAN
D15 NIZAM G38 RAN
D16 NORMAN G49 RAN
D17 QUADRANT G11 RAN
D18 QUALITY G62 RAN
D19 QUEENBOROUGH G70 RAN
D20 QUIBERON G81 RAN
D21 QUICKMATCH G92 RAN
D22 QUILLIAM G09
D23 ULSTER R83
D24 ULYSSES R69
D25 UNDAUNTED R53
D26 UNDINE R42
D27 URANIA R05
D28 URCHIN R99
D29 URSA R22
D30 WAGER R98
D31 WAKEFUL R59
D32 WESSEX R78
D33 WHELP R37
D34 WHIRLWIND R87
D35 WIZARD R72
D36 WRANGLER R48
D45 TEAZER R23
D46 TENACIOUS R45
D47 TERMAGANT R89
D48 TERPSICHORE R33
D49 TROUBRIDGE R00
D50 TUMULT R11
D51 TUSCAN R56
D52 TYRIAN R67
D61 BARFLEUR R80
D62 CAMPERDOWN R32
D70 PENN G77
D73 ARMADA R14
D75 TRAFALGAR R77

stontamar · #5 02-12-2007, 21:23

Thanks for submitting additions. Can I please ask if you have a source reference for this list?

Many thanks

stontamar

jbryce1437 · #6 03-12-2007, 16:26

Not sure of the source

stontamar · #7 04-12-2007, 08:59

Following the subject of pennant numbers allocated to RN, Commonwealth and Allied warships operating with the US Navy in the Far East and Pacific during the 1944-46 period. I have come across a reference to an Admiralty publication, BR619 Pendant lists 1942. Part II, Decode, Section B, Harbour (i), Ships, Establishments and Signal Stations, at home and abroad, table B. Amended from 1 Feb 1943 to 14 Dec 1944.

Does any member have access to a copy of this BR, possibly amended through to 1945/46, and if so is there any mention of the alternative US Navy allocated pennant numbers?

Regards stontamar

jbryce1437 · #8 04-12-2007, 21:02

Just found where I got them. They were emailed to me by an acquaintance who included the following in the email:

a complete list from Peter Smith's book (1969) titled
"Task Force 57 - The British Pacific Fleet, 1944-45"
He wrote:
"I got them from the Admiralty in Whitehall when I was
given special access during my original research in the late 1960's
and they were not preserved nor, I think, did they survive when
material was transferred to the PRO (or National Archive as it now is)
many years later. So Task Force 57 is the only place you will find
these unique numbers."

Hope this helps, so assume the National Archive may have the list - but won't hold my breath:-)

stontamar · #9 05-12-2007, 09:58

Thanks for update. I was told that "TASK FORCE 57 The British Pacific Fleet 1944-45" by Peter C. Smith does not list these pennant numbers so I did not bother looking up the book for myself. Will now try and obtain a copy.

It's a pity if, as related by Peter Smith, that the Admiralty did not take steps to preserve the lists. So much history and documentation must be lost.

stontamar

SCRG1970 · #10 20-09-2008, 15:15

Dave

Following on from your comments on Pennant numbers that were published in Warship Supplements 104 and 107 I have just dug them out and noticed that Jims list is the same as that in 104 compiled by Lt Cdr John Maber.

The list in 107 was compiled by Peter Haack from the US Navy Visual Call Sign Book 1 March 1944. This is more comprehensive and includes some Destroyer numbers omitted on Jim Bryces list.

Did this ever see the light of day on the forum ? If not I will scan and publish it.

Regards

Gerry

jbryce1437 · #11 21-09-2008, 15:07

Will be pleased to see a copy Gerry, and only too glad to add any omissions to the list.

Jim

SCRG1970 · #12 21-09-2008, 17:41

Jim

Here is copy of Warship 107 Pennant Numbers as requested.

Let me know if it is all legible

Regards
Gerry

jbryce1437 · #13 22-09-2008, 20:31

Thats a very comprehensive list, many thanks Gerry. I will endeavour to incorporate them into my list asap.

SCRG1970 · #14 22-09-2008, 20:42

Jim

You are very welcome.

Dont know how far you have researched the British Pacific Fleet but I keep coming across various contradictions.

As I understand it there was an Eastern Fleet part of which became the East Indies Fleet.

Some of these ships ended up under the British Pacific Fleet banner and others are listed with the US 7th Pacific Fleet.

Do you know of a comprehensive list of the Fleets possibly compiled from official sources rather than "Best Guess !!! "

Any help welcome

Regards

Gerry

jbryce1437 · #15 22-09-2008, 20:58

I am not aware of any "official" comprehensive list of pennant numbers. One contributor to my list reckoned the Admiralty records of pennant numbers had been disposed of, whilst another contributor thought that the National Archives may have them. The jury is out on whether, or, if a list does exist, where it can be found.

SCRG1970 · #16 22-09-2008, 21:51

Jim

Thanks for that. It confirms my suspicions on the way these lists duplicate or omit ships.

I guss the only way is to work through each of the ships docs and how long would that take !!!!

I am just suprised that after all this time nothing has surfaced.

Regards
Gerry

jbryce1437 · #17 23-09-2008, 12:37

Until it does surface, I will keep on adding to the list, which I have now updated, with your inclusions, on the other thread.
I presume that there are a lot of other ships missing from the BPF thread, as it contains no Frigates/Sloops, etc., with the exception of Whimbrel, which appears to have the same pennant prefix as the Battleships - B. I presume there were also a host of other ships attached to the BPF, such as Minesweepers.

SCRG1970 · #18 23-09-2008, 14:26

Jim

Re your last. I was wondering if you had a copy of the Fleet List that was listed in "The British Pacific and East Indies Fleets" that was published for the 50th Anniversary ?

The list by David Brown includes BPF/East Indies Fleet and the US 7th Fleet.
Its the most comprehensive one I have seen but unfortunately omits the pennants.

Regards

Gerry