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  #2326  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:54
brian hill brian hill is offline
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Default Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

Hi navalis

Thanks for the information and the Wikipedia reference. I shall dig a bit further online, but I think such obscure information for the 1910-20s is probably not available. As you say, things change over time, and maybe the 5- or 6-ball signal is now not used.

I'd never heard the term 'Day Shapes' before. My Manuals of Seamanship make no reference to this term, either. The 'Rule of the Road' sections deal with 2- and 3-black ball signals, but no mention of 5- or 6-ball.

Fortunately, it's not essential that I know. I suspect the answer lies somewhere deep in the annals of the NMM, so I may make enquiry there sometime.

Brian
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  #2327  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:18
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

Brian,

For what this is worth: try "firing" the question at what is now acting as the Signal School at HMS COLLINGWOOD. There used to be someone there who had access to "the books of knowledge." You may need to use "Snail Mail:" the NMM may hold the answer but I'd try HMS COLLINGWOOD first: or maybe both at the same time. Somehow, I doubt if this signal concerns the Collision Regulations but it is an intriguing one.

GK
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  #2328  
Old 05-09-2017, 14:14
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Default Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

Having zoomed in a bit on the image of Curacao, she appears to be displaying the following shapes on the port yardarm in the vertical sequence:- two black balls above a diamond, under which there are two (poss three) black balls.

I say two (poss three) black balls because the lowest of the black balls might be bent onto a different halyard .... for what purpose I have no idea.

Sorry to muddy the waters


Little h
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Last edited by harry.gibbon : 05-09-2017 at 14:56.
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  #2329  
Old 05-09-2017, 15:37
RNfanDan RNfanDan is offline
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Default Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

Mr. Hill;

For what it's worth, you may wish to locate a copy of Janes Fighting Ships which, in the past, had quite a bit of information on flags, signals, and such. I know that originals may be hard to get to and/or find, but ARCO Publishing released reprints of some of the "key years" volumes of JFS. I am certain that 1919 was one of those reprints--which may be of value, if the signals had not changed a great deal after WW1.

I could well be wrong of course, but it may be worth taking a chance at--here in the US, public libraries sometimes have the ARCO reprints, but university libraries are often the better venues for seeking them--you might get lucky!

Regards,

Dan
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  #2330  
Old 05-09-2017, 19:55
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNfanDan View Post
Mr. Hill;

For what it's worth, you may wish to locate a copy of Janes Fighting Ships which, in the past, had quite a bit of information on flags, signals, and such. I know that originals may be hard to get to and/or find, but ARCO Publishing released reprints of some of the "key years" volumes of JFS. I am certain that 1919 was one of those reprints--which may be of value, if the signals had not changed a great deal after WW1.

I could well be wrong of course, but it may be worth taking a chance at--here in the US, public libraries sometimes have the ARCO reprints, but university libraries are often the better venues for seeking them--you might get lucky!

Regards,

Dan
.


You are correct Dan:

From Wikipedia:

"The Jane's editions of 1898, 1905, 1906, 1914, 1919, 1924, 1931, 1939 and 1944 were reissued in facsimile reprints by Arco Publishing in 1969."
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  #2331  
Old 06-09-2017, 10:21
brian hill brian hill is offline
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Default Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

Thank you Grosser Kreuzer (GK), harry.gibbon (Little h), and RNfanDan (Dan) for your comments and advice.

GK – for the time being I'm leaving the enquiry in abeyance, but I will write to the NMM and HMS Collingwood at some point to see if they can give a definitive answer. There's no hurry on this; it takes me an average of four to five years to build a capital ship. I'm only about a quarter way through HMS Marlborough, and the rig is the very last thing I do as it is so fragile and complicated. For once, time isn't of the essence...

Dan – Thanks for your tip. My lovely wife is always happy for guidance as to what she can get me for Christmas. I think a copy of Jane's Fighting Ships, 1919, could well be 'on the books', so to speak.

Little h – you most certainly haven't muddied the waters – you've actually clarified matters with your observation on the downward sequence of the signal. Upon looking closer at Curacoa, you're absolutely right that the sequence is 2 balls, 1 diamond, and 2 balls (poss 3). I hadn't picked up on that because of the poor resolution. In a similar vein, the image of Benbow shows her downwards sequence to be ball-diamond-ball, followed by 2 balls.

The Regulations involving Day Shapes may have changed in detail over the years. According to current Regulation it appears that Benbow is at anchor and unable to avoid any other craft sailing in her direction. However, it would seem that Curacoa – if she is, indeed, showing 3 balls in sequence – is 'aground', whereas she is clearly at anchor, with her guest warping boom down and a ship's boat tied up to it. So, until I get the answer from the NMM or HMS Collingwood, I can't fathom why Curacoa's sequence is not similar to that on Benbow.

Rechecking through my cruiser images, I found about a dozen of them portraying the same sequence as Curacoa, and always on the port side of the foremast. The cruisers are either under way or at anchor (not tied up against a dock). Several of them have a third ball below the diamond, but always close to, or apparently lying on, the yard. I can't tell from any of these low-res images whether the third ball is actually part of the sequence, i.e. on the same halyard, or indicating something quite apart. The images date from about 1919 to the late 1920s.

Obviously, if any uncertainty remains when the rig is ready to be done on Marlborough, then I shall discard the idea of using the signal.

Regards to all, and thanks for your help.

Brian
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  #2332  
Old 06-09-2017, 11:00
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

Brian,

Your attention is drawn to Pelican's Post 2314: it seems that even the Comms Museum's archive has gone "on-line."

GK

PS My last capital ship model took me 30 years to complete: my main excuse was a busy career. There were other things but I will not bruit them about here!
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  #2333  
Old 06-09-2017, 11:29
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COMMS MUSEUM

From Facebook: Richard Hadley‎ to Royal Navy (Radio Operators)
I was just wondering how many of you are aware that the Comms Museum, located in Mercury Building Collingwood, started by the much missed Chris Ricard and now curated by Mark Gentry and Ken Sutton, exists? If you have MOD ID or are still serving, if you come to Mercury Building and ask at the front admin office, we can arrange access to the keys. If you do not, and can arrange yourselves into small groups of no more than 10 at a time and contact myself via pincher31jan@me.com I will make all efforts to give access to such small parties. It is located in the first floor of a building with no lift for those who may struggle with stairs sadly. It houses kit, course photographs and general memorabilia of Mercury itself and the branch. We also welcome any copies of course photos or other memorabilia that you may wish to locate there for safe keeping/donated or loaned. If you are wondering, those of you looking at my ships etc why you don't recognise my name, I took the very metrosexual act of changing my surname when my wife and I got married two years ago and I was Pincher Martin ex-CPO(CIS) before then.
CUL AR

See also - https://www.commsmuseum.com/intro
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  #2334  
Old 06-09-2017, 13:51
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Default Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

I'm not likely to find myself in that part of the world so do please remember me to Mark and Ken both of whom are very old friends of mine.
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  #2335  
Old 06-09-2017, 16:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Steer View Post
I'm not likely to find myself in that part of the world so do please remember me to Mark and Ken both of whom are very old friends of mine.
Wilco & adz.
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  #2336  
Old 06-09-2017, 17:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry.gibbon View Post
Having zoomed in a bit on the image of Curacao, she appears to be displaying the following shapes on the port yardarm in the vertical sequence:- two black balls above a diamond, under which there are two (poss three) black balls.

I say two (poss three) black balls because the lowest of the black balls might be bent onto a different halyard .... for what purpose I have no idea.

Sorry to muddy the waters


Little h
A modern black diamond? HMS Forth.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg HMS FORTH.jpg (124.2 KB, 22 views)
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  #2337  
Old 07-09-2017, 16:57
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mandrake079 mandrake079 is online now
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Default Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelican View Post
A modern black diamond? HMS Forth.
The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972

Rule 24

Towing and pushing

(a) A power-driven vessel when towing shall exhibit:

(i) instead of the light prescribed in Rule 23(a)(i) or (a)(ii), two masthead lights in a vertical
line. When the length of the tow, measuring from the stern of the towing vessel to the after
end of the tow exceeds 200 metres, three such lights in a vertical line;
(ii) sidelights;
(iii) a sternlight;
(iv) a towing light in a vertical line above the sternlight;
(v) when the length of the tow exceeds 200 metres, a diamond shape where it can best be seen.

[...]

(e) A vessel or object being towed, other than those mentioned in paragraph (g) of this Rule,
shall exhibit:
(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight;
(iii) when the length of the tow exceeds 200 metres, a diamond shape where it can best be seen.
Source: Maritime and Coastguard Agency, Merchant Shipping Notice 1781.
Not sure if this is the absolutely up-to-date wording, but probably good enough for government work.

Ted
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  #2338  
Old 07-09-2017, 18:31
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Pelican Pelican is offline
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Exclamation Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandrake079 View Post
The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972

Rule 24

Towing and pushing

(a) A power-driven vessel when towing shall exhibit:

(i) instead of the light prescribed in Rule 23(a)(i) or (a)(ii), two masthead lights in a vertical
line. When the length of the tow, measuring from the stern of the towing vessel to the after
end of the tow exceeds 200 metres, three such lights in a vertical line;
(ii) sidelights;
(iii) a sternlight;
(iv) a towing light in a vertical line above the sternlight;
(v) when the length of the tow exceeds 200 metres, a diamond shape where it can best be seen.

[...]

(e) A vessel or object being towed, other than those mentioned in paragraph (g) of this Rule,
shall exhibit:
(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight;
(iii) when the length of the tow exceeds 200 metres, a diamond shape where it can best be seen.
Source: Maritime and Coastguard Agency, Merchant Shipping Notice 1781.
Not sure if this is the absolutely up-to-date wording, but probably good enough for government work.

Ted
Thanks for taking the trouble Ted, appreciated - in yesteryear a 'Double Diamond' worked wonders.
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  #2339  
Old 08-09-2017, 17:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Steer View Post
I'm not likely to find myself in that part of the world so do please remember me to Mark and Ken both of whom are very old friends of mine.
No response from - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1560797207324539/ - to yours but you and others may be interested in the attached.
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File Type: pdf Richard Hadley - COMMS MUSEUM.pdf (319.1 KB, 33 views)
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  #2340  
Old 03-10-2017, 21:47
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MEMORIES FOR THE BUNTINGS [SIGNALMEN]

Similar for the Boy Signalmen at Ganges. Towards the end of their course they would give any marching band or drill squad a run for their money.
Attached Files
File Type: doc Marching Manoeuvres.doc (34.5 KB, 20 views)
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  #2341  
Old 19-10-2017, 14:29
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Phonetic Alphabet - How It Changed
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  #2342  
Old 02-11-2017, 22:47
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D.A. SMITH'S SPARKERS BADGE

Interesting to see a maple leaf in lieu of star.
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File Type: jpg D.A. SMITH - CANADIAN SPARKER.jpg (108.7 KB, 16 views)
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  #2343  
Old 04-11-2017, 13:43
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HMS MERCURY

Evidently these were given out as the Captain's prize at one time.
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  #2344  
Old 05-11-2017, 19:28
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H.O. SPARKERS AND CODERS WW II

For those interested in the history of H.O.s:
My understanding was that H.O.'s who later became Sparkers an Coders were given their basic training at Ganges and then went to Highnam Court - HMS CABALA. Evidently they lived in tents in the grounds and 6 of their dogtags have been found by those who are restoring the grounds and setting up a Museum.
I have now been told "Highnam Court was only used by Ganges between 28/04/41 until 31/01/42 then this site became H.M.S. Cabbala training coders until it was vacated 09/11/42 it was then the Admiralty relinquished Highnam Court – Cabbala was then transferred to Broxfare Nr. Nottingham then moved to Warrington until November 46 then it became H.M.S Scotia then Gosling for educational and vocational training."

See also for the Mercury connection - https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=... ABALA&f=false
Attached Images
File Type: jpg HMS GANGES - HIGHNAM COURT - HMS CABBALA.jpg (799.3 KB, 5 views)
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  #2345  
Old 10-12-2017, 22:34
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HMS MAURITIUS - ROYAL NAVY WIRELESS STATION 1960-70's - VACOAS, CHALAND etc

Photographs - cycle thru here - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HMS-MAURI...AOSwVNx aI~E1
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  #2346  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:58
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THE COMMUNICATOR MAG.

All the back copies are available to view here - https://www.commsmuseum.com/the-communicator
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  #2347  
Old 05-01-2018, 12:00
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FROM FB

Richard Southall Royal Navy (Radio Operators)

The RN Comms team in the 1968 Nato Naval Communications Competition held in Bergen, Norway. Still got the McHaig Trophy for morse code and the Comms relay trophy we won. 13 Nato Navy teams competed. Memories!!!
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File Type: jpg comms team.jpg (42.7 KB, 20 views)
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  #2348  
Old 13-01-2018, 14:04
Urs Heßling Urs Heßling is online now
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Default Re: Communications in the Royal Navy

hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelican View Post
Phonetic Alphabet - How It Changed
a sidestep :
The first 8 of that spelling sheet (Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy, Fox, George, How) were used in the US Army and the US Marines do denote a bataillon's companies.

greetings, Urs
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