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  #76  
Old 06-07-2009, 20:03
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TrotOneLower TrotOneLower is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

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Originally Posted by Fairlead View Post
In the navy the use of personal operator signs and special ways of ending transmissions were always discouraged as this could lead to the identification of a vessel by enemy forces. In case you are wondering, let me say that in almost every circumstance a ship's callsign would be encrypted and regularly changed in order that the ship could not be identified by anyone other than friendly forces.

Which leads us gently into the subject of TEMPEST Tests!

Fairlead

Always made sure I was not around for them. Not my fault Chief, honest, it woz 'im wot dun it.
Tempest tests were, and probably still are, when a little group of chappies from Mercury (no more) would come down with their truck, and see if they could pick up residual signals, then copy them. Not really relevant to morse though??
Simplified version..........
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  #77  
Old 06-07-2009, 20:25
davep davep is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

i can confrim tempest test are still around even now in the days of computers, the experts say from the signals they receive they can get an idea of what is present on a computer screen.
when the comcens went computerised we had a lot of tempest visits to check trunking and conduits for any stray earths that could act as aerials.
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  #78  
Old 06-07-2009, 22:35
Fairlead Fairlead is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Part of the test was (COMINT - I think) carried out by an RS at HMS FOREST MOOR to record the 'signature' of each transmitter (which was related to morse because of the method of keying (pre - 1KHz tone days) and relay 'bounce' etc) - if a TX was too different from its spec, then the cause had to be found and cured.

But going back to morse - does anyone remember the 'undulator' used for reading morse and detecting 'fist signatures'

Fairlead
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  #79  
Old 06-07-2009, 22:39
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

"Part of the test was to record the 'signature' of each transmitter (which was related to morse because of the method of keying (pre - 1KHz tone days) and relay 'bounce' etc) - if a TX was too different from its spec, then the cause had to be found and cured."

I didn't know that you could write in Serbo Croat, Fairlead. Could you translate it into English for this simple minded Dabtoe who failed his 11 plus!!!!!!
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  #80  
Old 06-07-2009, 23:19
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Ye gawds all these fancy modern names for what is/was simple stuff:- so after all these years lets try....

Everything electrical/electronic when switched on 'radiates' and has a fingerprint or signature (as well as doing what it is intended for) ...

every radiation/radiated emmision if and when interupted (lets say) has another measureable effect fingerprint or signature (lets say) so...

even inside a Sonar set or other piece of apparatus there are measureable emmisions and there are assigned geezers with equipment to measure and record same.

It ain't new it ain't magic and it has been known and measured/recorded for years and years!!!!!!!!

and:- sparkers should have been and were, aware of it (witness the stories thus far!!!)

There might be more fanciful equipment and terminology now BUT let me assure you it was well monitored and recorded (lets say) in my time.

More in vogue definitions might be forthcoming but I always find solace in the fact that what was "not to be spoken about" in my time and my trade has ended up in our living rooms today!!!

Little h
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  #81  
Old 06-07-2009, 23:32
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Would I be right in saying that every ship has a different radiation/radiated emmision signature and, possibly be picked up by, lets say an AGI, recorded and thus identify a single ship by this signature?
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  #82  
Old 06-07-2009, 23:41
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

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Would I be right in saying that every ship has a different radiation/radiated emmision signature and, possibly be picked up by, lets say an AGI, recorded and thus identify a single ship by this signature?
t'was always the case, but which signature are you thinking about? sub surface, or surface especially?

Engines, props, screws, fans, etc etc they are and always have been there it may not always be electrical radiation but sound and that's your forte...

and don't forget the gash thrown overboard... loo rolls (manufacturers names) etc etc.

What you produced ... has a recipient or gatherer
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  #83  
Old 06-07-2009, 23:48
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Yes, you are right Harry. I know that when I was there, they could actually name the submarine just by the propellor noise. We didn't have the capability on board but if the tape was sent away it could be done. I guess with modern computers, it is possible on ships now.
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  #84  
Old 07-07-2009, 00:01
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

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Yes, you are right Harry. I know that when I was there, they could actually name the submarine just by the propellor noise. We didn't have the capability on board but if the tape was sent away it could be done. I guess with modern computers, it is possible on ships now.
It was possible then mate! just no realtime data link or stream available!!
but;-
then again if you knew what the name was, then a library was in place, so why would you need to send a tape away "SO IT COULD BE DONE"???

More importantly A) lets get an Asdic/Sonar thread going and have the relevant posts moved over from here

and

why do you think the target you could name was there????????? with his library which might have had gaps in it!! boom boom
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  #85  
Old 07-07-2009, 00:12
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

"then again if you knew what the name was, then a library was in place, so why would you need to send a tape away "SO IT COULD BE DONE"???"


I guess you always want to know what you are up against. Know the Name, know the class, know the capability.

In the Army it is always good to know if the enemy in front of you have pea shooters or Tanks. I suppose it is all about "Knowing Your Enemy"
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  #86  
Old 07-07-2009, 00:16
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

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Originally Posted by qprdave View Post
"then again if you knew what the name was, then a library was in place, so why would you need to send a tape away "SO IT COULD BE DONE"???"


I guess you always want to know what you are up against. Know the Name, know the class, know the capability.

In the Army it is always good to know if the enemy in front of you have pea shooters or Tanks. I suppose it is all about "Knowing Your Enemy"
Got that mate I is orf to ye pit but check yer e-mail

Gudonyah buckoo n all that Oh n Terry wantz yer foto on you kno where

Little h
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  #87  
Old 07-07-2009, 05:35
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairlead View Post
Part of the test was (COMINT - I think) carried out by an RS at HMS FOREST MOOR to record the 'signature' of each transmitter (which was related to morse because of the method of keying (pre - 1KHz tone days) and relay 'bounce' etc) - if a TX was too different from its spec, then the cause had to be found and cured.

But going back to morse - does anyone remember the 'undulator' used for reading morse and detecting 'fist signatures'

Fairlead
Forgot all about Forest Moor...........
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  #88  
Old 07-07-2009, 07:10
Fairlead Fairlead is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Duh!
Sorry Dave I had not cottoned on that you were a dabtoe - How about if I talk about splicing, and yes we sparkers did splice wire and had to be careful because if it was not done correctly the strand ends could emit harmonics of those electro magnetic waves in all sorts of nasty ways - called "Rusty bolt effect".

Remember the 'Post Office Splice' - replaced later by the 'Guy Grip Deadend'

P.S. I still splice, wire, stranded and braided ropes - hence the signature (get it?)

Fairlead
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  #89  
Old 07-07-2009, 08:03
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Jan Steer Jan Steer is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Fairlead I do remember splicing wire aerial ends, post office whipping, before the advent of guy grip dead ends. I've mentioned elsewhere that to this day I carry lots of tiny white scars on the backs of both hands thanks to that task!
"Rusty Bolt Effect" - now there is a term from the past! If I remember correctly wasn't that first identified onboard "Eagle" and was something to do with the 691/CUH? Or is age beginning to take it's toll?!
QPR Dave you would never believe half of the things we R.O.s were involved in to ensure that we kept our secrets secret. And thanks to the Official Secrets Act you probably never will. ALL communicators learned right from the start that we never talked about our jobs to anyone and any of us with any sense at all will keep it that way.
Great thread this. I'm pleased that we got it started.

Best wishes
Jan
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  #90  
Old 07-07-2009, 12:40
Dave Hutson Dave Hutson is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Bee is certainly getting a good education into Naval Comms.

On the subject of "did u know who was on the other end" - I worked in Plymouth and Malta with Wren Sparkers who had boyfriends on ships and between them they used to have ways of identifying the hand on the key. i.e. Plymouth Local callsign was MTN which when run together came out as figure 9 - Chevron callsign was MWSP - I used to run the SP together and my chum ran the MW together. There used to be many examples which operators used sometimes to try and fool the Shoresides operator.

Dave H
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  #91  
Old 07-07-2009, 14:35
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

QPR Dave you would never believe half of the things we R.O.s were involved in to ensure that we kept our secrets secret. And thanks to the Official Secrets Act you probably never will. ALL communicators learned right from the start that we never talked about our jobs to anyone and any of us with any sense at all will keep it that way.

Of course, I should have realised that you still come under the Official Secrets Act (Dumb huh?). I was at HMS Warrior at Northwood. And was told not to mention anything that was carried out "Underground". This I faithfully did. Then I found out what I and many others did via the B.B.C. and I.T.N. News During the Falkland War!!!!
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  #92  
Old 07-07-2009, 16:20
Bee Bee is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

[quote=Dave Hutson;60302]Bee is certainly getting a good education into Naval Comms.
Yes, I am....it is very interesting.

You might find this snippet interesting :
My brother reminded me the other day about an aerial that our Dad strung up...which enabled communication with with Whitehall from his motor gun boat (when the flagship they were with couldn't get a signal). Apparently the Skippers of the 2 ships were talking with each other and the flagship Skipper mentioned that they couldn't get any signals through to Whitehall. Dad's Skipper said they could and so they asked Dad if they could use his set and cabin (which, of course he agreed to.)
The reason our Dad was able to get a signal was that when he set up his radio cabin... he was initially told that only one aerial should be strung - from mast to stern and that if it was shot down - he had to be prepared to replace it (prob. whilst under hostile fire.) Not relishing that thought, Dad asked his Skipper if he could string up a second aerial, just behind the bow gun emplacement (explaining to the Skipper it would provide a quicker solution.) However, Dad realised that this would still mean that he'd have to climb the mast to switch it over if one got shot down. Not one to relish unwarranted heroics, Dad then asked permission to test connecting both aerials together - and if the transmitter could handle it he would leave it set up that way - safety in redundancy being the argument. Permission was granted...the set up was tested and found to work well and so was left at that. Without knowing it, Dad had discovered (or at least implemented for himself) what is now known as "an inverted V" antenna - which was much better than a single wire.
(This would have been in the eary 40's.)

Regards,
Bee

Hope that makes sense to you....my older brother knows a lot more about radios and aerials etc than I do.

Last edited by Bee : 07-07-2009 at 16:46. Reason: posted rest of story.
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  #93  
Old 07-07-2009, 16:55
Dave Hutson Dave Hutson is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Hey lads ...... we are going to have to keep an eye on our Bee ...... very soon she will only be able to talk to Fairlead ....... joking aside, nice one Bee the old fella stumbled on that by accident but his skipper had the edge on the Flag that day.
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  #94  
Old 07-07-2009, 17:12
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

After reading that story, Bee. I am surprised that your dad remained on a pokey little boat and not whisked off to some Battleship to be the Admirals Communicator!!!!!
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  #95  
Old 07-07-2009, 17:26
Fairlead Fairlead is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Way back in Post #39 I promised Frank a pic of my Eddystone Bug Key -
I managed to find it and just taken these photos.
The top knurled knob is missing but the rest is all in tact
On the bottom is 'MODEL S689' and Rd.No. 363967.
Now I want to play with it! Must find myself an oscillator.

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Attached Images
File Type: jpg EdBUG1.JPG (131.2 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg EdBUG2.JPG (160.1 KB, 12 views)
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  #96  
Old 07-07-2009, 18:26
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

[quote=Bee;60335]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hutson View Post
Bee is certainly getting a good education into Naval Comms.
Yes, I am....it is very interesting.

You might find this snippet interesting :
My brother reminded me the other day about an aerial that our Dad strung up...which enabled communication with with Whitehall from his motor gun boat (when the flagship they were with couldn't get a signal). Apparently the Skippers of the 2 ships were talking with each other and the flagship Skipper mentioned that they couldn't get any signals through to Whitehall. Dad's Skipper said they could and so they asked Dad if they could use his set and cabin (which, of course he agreed to.)
The reason our Dad was able to get a signal was that when he set up his radio cabin... he was initially told that only one aerial should be strung - from mast to stern and that if it was shot down - he had to be prepared to replace it (prob. whilst under hostile fire.) Not relishing that thought, Dad asked his Skipper if he could string up a second aerial, just behind the bow gun emplacement (explaining to the Skipper it would provide a quicker solution.) However, Dad realised that this would still mean that he'd have to climb the mast to switch it over if one got shot down. Not one to relish unwarranted heroics, Dad then asked permission to test connecting both aerials together - and if the transmitter could handle it he would leave it set up that way - safety in redundancy being the argument. Permission was granted...the set up was tested and found to work well and so was left at that. Without knowing it, Dad had discovered (or at least implemented for himself) what is now known as "an inverted V" antenna - which was much better than a single wire.
(This would have been in the eary 40's.)

Regards,
Bee

Hope that makes sense to you....my older brother knows a lot more about radios and aerials etc than I do.
and of course............. the result becomes that he is 'radiating' EMW's with more than one polarity..... witness the shape of FH4/5 aerial.!!!
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  #97  
Old 07-07-2009, 18:28
Fairlead Fairlead is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

This might amuse some of you - musical morse

http://www.zerobeat.net/morse505.html?fix

and if you want some serious practice - play with this one

http://www.omnicron.com/~ford/java/NMorse.html

Fairlead
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  #98  
Old 07-07-2009, 18:35
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harry.gibbon harry.gibbon is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairlead View Post
This might amuse some of you - musical morse

http://www.zerobeat.net/morse505.html?fix

and if you want some serious practice - play with this one

http://www.omnicron.com/~ford/java/NMorse.html

Fairlead
re the second link.... OK then who will be the first to admit to typing in PARIS and then timing it to check speed validity.....!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #99  
Old 07-07-2009, 19:27
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Hixy Hixy is offline
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairlead View Post
Way back in Post #39 I promised Frank a pic of my Eddystone Bug Key -
I managed to find it and just taken these photos.
The top knurled knob is missing but the rest is all in tact
On the bottom is 'MODEL S689' and Rd.No. 363967.
Now I want to play with it! Must find myself an oscillator.

Fairlead
That's it Fairlead. How I miss my 'rat' (insert green with envy smiley).
Thanks for the photo.
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  #100  
Old 07-07-2009, 19:31
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Default Re: Communications ratings only

I don't know about you lot. It looks like a mouse to me!!!!!!!!!!!
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