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  #1251  
Old 23-03-2015, 19:49
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny07 View Post
Yes Mike but if more than one person wears it does it not become uniform?
Johnny,
In the literal sense you are correct but my source is DCI(RN)34/97 which is entitled 'No.8 Working Dress Shirts and Trousers Recategorisation from Uniform to Operational Clothing.' So although No.8s (No.4s) are uniform clothing, they are no longer categorised as 'uniform' in an RN rig sense.
Mike
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  #1252  
Old 23-03-2015, 20:24
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetchief View Post

It rather amused me that a WO's Royal Coat of Arms & a CPO's Sleeve Buttons are specified as being exactly 127mm from the bottom of the sleeve. For those of my vintage, that is exactly 5". However, I certainly didn't get a ruler out, and I suspect no other WO or CPO did. In my time we were always told 'Get your S.43A Naval Pay and Identity Book out, because it is exactly 5" in height'. Assuming personnel still have a S.43A, the Powers-That-Be would consider putting that instruction in the Dress Regulations, rather than 127mm, to be Politically Incorrect.

Cheers,

Ed
Re the paragraph (copied above) some clarification is sought please.

This is regarding the distance of 5" from the bottom of sleeve (to the three buttons). That seems to be at odds with a DCI dated 26 April 1974, see attachment.

Little h
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File Type: jpg 1 DCI - buttons.jpg (252.4 KB, 22 views)
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  #1253  
Old 23-03-2015, 20:51
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

In 1999 edition of BR81 para 0312.4 states " Chief Petty Officers are distinguished by three buttons worn horizontally on each cuff of the blue reefer jacket and white tunic, 127mm [5 inches] from the bottom of the sleeve......" So there must have been a further change since 1974.
Mike
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  #1254  
Old 23-03-2015, 21:03
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harry.gibbon harry.gibbon is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
In 1999 edition of BR81 para 0312.4 states " Chief Petty Officers are distinguished by three buttons worn horizontally on each cuff of the blue reefer jacket and white tunic, 127mm [5 inches] from the bottom of the sleeve......" So there must have been a further change since 1974.
Mike
I guess so Mike.

You will have noted that the 1974 DCI was raised to delete and substitute an existing 'Instruction'. Do you have any idea what the measurement was prior to April 1974?

Little h
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  #1255  
Old 23-03-2015, 23:16
fleetchief fleetchief is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry.gibbon View Post
Re the paragraph (copied above) some clarification is sought please.

This is regarding the distance of 5" from the bottom of sleeve (to the three buttons). That seems to be at odds with a DCI dated 26 April 1974, see attachment.

Little h
I quote BR3, Part 6, Chapter 39
3916. Badges Worn by Warrant Officers, Senior and Junior Ratings
a. Warrant Officers wear the Royal Arms on both cuffs of the blue reefer jacket with the bottom of the badge 127mm from the end of the sleeve. A smaller version of the same badge is worn on the optional mess jacket.
b. Shoulder rank slides with the Royal Arms are provided for Warrant Officers to wear with bush jackets, jerseys, AWD and Jackets WP.
c. An optional shoulder board with Royal Arms may be worn on the white short sleeved shirt or the optional white mess jacket.
d. CWO Badge. On taking up the appointment the CWO is awarded the CWO badge on and may wear it during the period of the appointment only. The badge is to be worn on the left breast in the same position as a NATO force emblem.
e. Canes. A black silver top cane with Royal Arms on the top may be carried by:
(1) The Warrant Officer Naval Service (Victory cane may be carried on ceremonial occasions).
(2) The Command Warrant Officer to Admirals of Fighting Arms.
(3) Base Warrant Officers.
f. Chief Petty Officers are distinguished by three buttons worn horizontally on each cuff of the blue reefer jacket and white tunic, 127mm from the bottom of the sleeve. Identical buttons shall be worn on the optional blue mess jacket.
I think this rather supersedes your attached 1974 reference. I don't know when it changed from 4" to 5" (101mm x 127mm)

Incidentally a S.43A measures 4" x 5", so I guess in older days they used the width of a S.43A and in later days they used the height of a S.43A.

Cheers,

Ed
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  #1256  
Old 24-03-2015, 01:07
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harry.gibbon harry.gibbon is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetchief View Post
I quote BR3, Part 6, Chapter 39

[/indent]f. Chief Petty Officers are distinguished by three buttons worn horizontally on each cuff of the blue reefer jacket and white tunic, 127mm from the bottom of the sleeve. Identical buttons shall be worn on the optional blue mess jacket.[/indent]
I think this rather supersedes your attached 1974 reference. I don't know when it changed from 4" to 5" (101mm x 127mm)

Incidentally a S.43A measures 4" x 5", so I guess in older days they used the width of a S.43A and in later days they used the height of a S.43A.

Cheers,

Ed
Thanks for your response Ed.

Re. BR3 (latest edition/amendment) information - no problem - I have used the on-line version as a reference in a number of threads.

We seem to be at cross purposes regarding my query; this arose from your having included in post #1242 the comments:- "For those of my vintage" and "In my time we were always told".

So, arising from posts made in another thread - your vintage would equate to 1956-1982 whilst mine was 1958-1974 - placing me somewhere in the middle of your vintage. (you having left as a Fleet Chief Tiff and I (somewhat earlier) as a CRS(S) )

Having posted an excerpt from the DCI relating to the 4" in April '74, I am left wondering a) how long this measurement lasted and b) what measurement did the DCI amend.

Little h
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  #1257  
Old 24-03-2015, 02:36
fleetchief fleetchief is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

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Originally Posted by harry.gibbon View Post
Thanks for your response Ed.

Re. BR3 (latest edition/amendment) information - no problem - I have used the on-line version as a reference in a number of threads.

We seem to be at cross purposes regarding my query; this arose from your having included in post #1242 the comments:- "For those of my vintage" and "In my time we were always told".

So, arising from posts made in another thread - your vintage would equate to 1956-1982 whilst mine was 1958-1974 - placing me somewhere in the middle of your vintage. (you having left as a Fleet Chief Tiff and I (somewhat earlier) as a CRS(S) )

Having posted an excerpt from the DCI relating to the 4" in April '74, I am left wondering a) how long this measurement lasted and b) what measurement did the DCI amend.

Little h
Hi Harry,

I brought my uniform to Canada in 1982, but I think I must have ditched it at some stage, probably because it didn't fit any longer, though for some reason I kept my cap. I hoped to have check the uniform for badge position.

I got rated CPO mid 60's and Fleet Chief 1980. I know that I didn't buy new uniforms what I made Fleet Chief, so I would have sewn on the badges at the same place the CPO's buttons were. Just can't remember what that position was.

Incidentally, did you know either CRS(S) Brian Snell, who was my Best Man in 1970, or CRS(S) Tom Houghton, who was #2 CPO's Mess President for GLAMORGAN's first commission. We also had a CRS(W) Des Blackwell in the mess, who I met years later when he was a FCRS(W).

Cheers,

Ed
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  #1258  
Old 24-03-2015, 12:09
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry.gibbon View Post
I guess so Mike.

You will have noted that the 1974 DCI was raised to delete and substitute an existing 'Instruction'. Do you have any idea what the measurement was prior to April 1974?

Little h
A very good question Harry. I have looked through my records going back to the early 1900's when CPOs first started to wear cuff buttons, through to 1947. The Dress Regs during this period, while referring to the cuff buttons, do not specify the measurement from the bottom of the sleeve.
After 1947, amendment No. 8(1980) to BR81 is still giving 4 inches but I havn't a clue as to when it increased to 5 inches.
Mike
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  #1259  
Old 24-03-2015, 12:49
Ednamay Ednamay is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
A very good question Harry. I have looked through my records going back to the early 1900's when CPOs first started to wear cuff buttons, through to 1947. The Dress Regs during this period, while referring to the cuff buttons, do not specify the measurement from the bottom of the sleeve.
After 1947, amendment No. 8(1980) to BR81 is still giving 4 inches but I havn't a clue as to when it increased to 5 inches.
Mike
In 1939 my father wore his buttons 4 inches from the edge of the cuff and (from higher up the thread!) he also had a silver-topped black cane which he seldom (if ever) used !

Edna
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  #1260  
Old 24-03-2015, 20:41
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harry.gibbon harry.gibbon is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Edna and Mike,

Thanks for your responses.

Little h
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  #1261  
Old 24-03-2015, 20:44
harry.gibbon's Avatar
harry.gibbon harry.gibbon is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetchief View Post
Hi Harry,

I brought my uniform to Canada in 1982, but I think I must have ditched it at some stage, probably because it didn't fit any longer, though for some reason I kept my cap. I hoped to have check the uniform for badge position.

I got rated CPO mid 60's and Fleet Chief 1980. I know that I didn't buy new uniforms what I made Fleet Chief, so I would have sewn on the badges at the same place the CPO's buttons were. Just can't remember what that position was.

Incidentally, did you know either CRS(S) Brian Snell, who was my Best Man in 1970, or CRS(S) Tom Houghton, who was #2 CPO's Mess President for GLAMORGAN's first commission. We also had a CRS(W) Des Blackwell in the mess, who I met years later when he was a FCRS(W).

Cheers,

Ed
Thanks Ed.

Re last para; to avoid going off topic I shall respond via PM.

Little h
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  #1262  
Old 25-03-2015, 08:26
AndyW AndyW is offline
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Question Re: Royal Navy Uniform

I was intrigued to stumble across this photo on the web the other day:

http://www.wrnsbt.org.uk/images/gall...hms-mecury.jpg

Does anyone happen to know whether these boots were actually worn by Wrens in the 1970s, or was this just a one-off publicity stunt?
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  #1263  
Old 25-03-2015, 09:16
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Andy,

This may help. If I recall correctly, Wrens were allowed to wear such boots during the winter in the event of very inclement weather such as snow, when flat and court shoes were inappropriate/detrimental to comfort or safe walking but not for ceremonial occasions.

I do not know if they were issued as part of their kit.

This site does not (at a glance) seem to have any threads dealing with the Woman's Royal Naval Service, you may therefore get a better answer on a site dedicated to them alone: I am certain that there will be one.

GK
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  #1264  
Old 25-03-2015, 12:49
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Pelican Pelican is offline
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Exclamation Re: Royal Navy Uniform

NEW UNIFORM

Belts - official bumf refers to 'stable' belts, 2 buckles etc.? Can anyone identify the additional 'belts' worn by some of the crew of Lancaster when she left harbour recently?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LANCASTER.jpg (120.8 KB, 33 views)
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  #1265  
Old 25-03-2015, 14:55
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grosser Kreuzer View Post
Andy,

This may help. If I recall correctly, Wrens were allowed to wear such boots during the winter in the event of very inclement weather such as snow, when flat and court shoes were inappropriate/detrimental to comfort or safe walking but not for ceremonial occasions.

I do not know if they were issued as part of their kit.

This site does not (at a glance) seem to have any threads dealing with the Woman's Royal Naval Service, you may therefore get a better answer on a site dedicated to them alone: I am certain that there will be one.

GK
iN THE 1963 Appendix to the Navy List the scale of kit issued to WRNS ratings, does not include boots. Footwear issued was given as : Shoes, black leather.....3 pairs. WREN cooks were issued as extra galley shoes. Other footwear required would have been issued as loan clothing.
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  #1266  
Old 25-03-2015, 15:23
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Keith,

Thanks for the addition.

My recall of Wrens being allowed to wear the type of boots shown in Andy's picture is a fairly good one, however, I can't remember if the pattern was defined. It may have been that the girls were given a grant to buy such items from retail facilities and wear them. The only stipulation being that they had to be black (and possibly knee-length).

On a "slight change of course:" I believe that the girls were also allowed to carry umbrellas in while in uniform while the men were not.

Pelican,

Re: Your 1249

Stable belts of a navy blue colour with the usual mixture of leather and white MMF cordage belts from which the "rigging set" is slung. Some appear to have theirs slung from some form of light blue belt that may be "issue." Whatever the case though their arms and hands are not complying with the "Old Navy" definition of "Attention."

GK

Last edited by Grosser Kreuzer : 25-03-2015 at 15:32. Reason: Addition of detail
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  #1267  
Old 25-03-2015, 16:42
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Pelican Pelican is offline
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Exclamation Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grosser Kreuzer View Post
Keith,

Thanks for the addition.

My recall of Wrens being allowed to wear the type of boots shown in Andy's picture is a fairly good one, however, I can't remember if the pattern was defined. It may have been that the girls were given a grant to buy such items from retail facilities and wear them. The only stipulation being that they had to be black (and possibly knee-length).

On a "slight change of course:" I believe that the girls were also allowed to carry umbrellas in while in uniform while the men were not.

Pelican,

Re: Your 1249

Stable belts of a navy blue colour with the usual mixture of leather and white MMF cordage belts from which the "rigging set" is slung. Some appear to have theirs slung from some form of light blue belt that may be "issue." Whatever the case though their arms and hands are not complying with the "Old Navy" definition of "Attention."

GK
Thanks G.K. A while back apart from not being tolerated they would have been called a bunch of 'scranbags.' Not their fault really. Who is i/c?
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  #1268  
Old 25-03-2015, 20:21
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelican View Post
NEW UNIFORM

Belts - official bumf refers to 'stable' belts, 2 buckles etc.? Can anyone identify the additional 'belts' worn by some of the crew of Lancaster when she left harbour recently?
In 1995 new style waist belts were introduced in black and in white described as US nylon style with metal clasp.
Mike
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  #1269  
Old 25-03-2015, 20:44
johnny07 johnny07 is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grosser Kreuzer View Post
Keith,

Thanks for the addition.

My recall of Wrens being allowed to wear the type of boots shown in Andy's picture is a fairly good one, however, I can't remember if the pattern was defined. It may have been that the girls were given a grant to buy such items from retail facilities and wear them. The only stipulation being that they had to be black (and possibly knee-length).

On a "slight change of course:" I believe that the girls were also allowed to carry umbrellas in while in uniform while the men were not.

Pelican,

Re: Your 1249

Stable belts of a navy blue colour with the usual mixture of leather and white MMF cordage belts from which the "rigging set" is slung. Some appear to have theirs slung from some form of light blue belt that may be "issue." Whatever the case though their arms and hands are not complying with the "Old Navy" definition of "Attention."

GK
This is something I have never thought about but are men in uniform forbidden to use a brolly?
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  #1270  
Old 25-03-2015, 20:53
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al1934 al1934 is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

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This is something I have never thought about but are men in uniform forbidden to use a brolly?
No problem if one is a Guards officer!
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  #1271  
Old 25-03-2015, 21:25
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Mike B,

Re: Your 2021

Thanks for pointing out the correct colours of the belts. Do the "new" ones have money pouches in them? I presume not.

Johnny07,

Re: Your 2044.

I had always understood (prior to 1995) that they were "not to be carried" by men.

GK
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  #1272  
Old 25-03-2015, 22:22
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Pelican Pelican is offline
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Exclamation Re: Royal Navy Uniform

BROLLY'S

Why on earth would one want one when they had an oilskin let alone a Burberry?
Mind you after returning from foreign in the early 50's mine was a solid block. I was never asked for it at a kit muster so 'lost' it.
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File Type: jpeg OILSKIN.jpeg (28.1 KB, 23 views)
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  #1273  
Old 25-03-2015, 22:35
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BelliniTosi BelliniTosi is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grosser Kreuzer View Post
Keith,

On a "slight change of course:" I believe that the girls were also allowed to carry umbrellas in while in uniform while the men were not.
I do remember the quartermaster on Terror's main gate dressed in No10's checking vehicles in and out using the ubiquitous Wanchai Burberry (a waxed paper parasol) during a heavy rain storm.
John

Last edited by BelliniTosi : 25-03-2015 at 22:36. Reason: typo
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  #1274  
Old 26-03-2015, 00:21
fleetchief fleetchief is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

I remember being told that when I did my out routine, which in my case was 1982, that I could keep all my kit EXCEPT I had to return 3 sheets, single bed, for the use of. Apparently these had been considered to be on loan, which used to be the Army system where they returned them and drew replacements, while the returned items went off to a laundry.

In the end, the ONLY item they wanted back, was my Anti-Gas Respirator together with its shoulder bag.

Just as well that they didn't want the small brown personal 'suitcase' issued to me, as an apprentice in 1956. I think it was probably made of cardboard and fell apart because it got wet.

We were NOT issued with the large Green suitcase, but had to purchase it from Slops. Now it was of terrific quality and lasted the whole of my 26 years.

I also remember we were issued two pairs of boots, one studded for parade ground wear and one un-studded for normal wear, and had to purchase shoes from Slops, if we wanted them for shore-going. Needless to say everyone made them their first purchase from Slops. Not that much later they added shoes to the initial kit issue.

Cheers,

Ed
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  #1275  
Old 26-03-2015, 01:30
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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Default Re: Royal Navy Uniform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelican View Post
NEW UNIFORM

Belts - official bumf refers to 'stable' belts, 2 buckles etc.? Can anyone identify the additional 'belts' worn by some of the crew of Lancaster when she left harbour recently?
Can't help with the belts BUT - How long has the RN been issuing ratings caps that are flat ie like the RAN? What happened to the lovely sheer and camber cap that existed in the past?
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