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  #51  
Old 22-07-2010, 10:16
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CYLLA CYLLA is offline
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Default Re: CAP RIBBONS/TALLIES

Here is one of my cap tallies, with a souvenir from a great run ashore in Hamilton ,Bermuda.
I have placed it in the picture frame of the ship
The odd one out is of H.M.S BELLEROPHON,which i was going to put with my H.M.S BELFAST frame,but it did not seem correct.

cylla
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My old home , visits Malta for her first time 1971 ..
This painting being a " One off "


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  #52  
Old 28-07-2010, 22:08
stontamar stontamar is offline
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Default Re: CAP RIBBONS/TALLIES

QUOTE - Thanks Jim, thats quite useful. I wonder if something similar happened this side of the pond. Furthermore, the practice of wearing named tallies must have carried on in some quarters - even if it was outlawed in 1940.

I guess it is going to be a trip to the archives!

Doc

The practise did continue after war started, I have a couple of examples of cap ribbons in my collection issued to ratings drafted to ships that were commissioned post 1939. It would appear these were issued to a limited number of crew for wearing at the ships first commissioning ceremony. I believe they were subsequent withdrawn and the ratings reverted to the wartime standard H.M.S. ribbon. I do not know when this practice ceased.

Other examples seen suggest that ribbons were worn for propaganda purposes, examples of this can be seen in photographs taken of EXETER crew on their return to the UK after the River Plate action and likewise with DORSETSHIRE crew after the action against the BISMARCK.

Regarding the H.M DESTROYER – CRUISERS – MINESWEEPER etc ribbons, these were never official issue although photographs of ratings wearing these ribbons are not too difficult to find. It is one of those examples where Jack is seen to push the boundaries of what he wore as opposed to what he was supposed to wear (official uniform), incidentally a trait not restricted to the lower deck. Presumably the naval tailors had a hand in selling these ribbons but I guess the chances of seeing them worn on board or in the dockyards would be severely limited by the attentions of the regulators. More likely they were worn well aware from the attentions of the naval authorities, for example when the ratings were on home leave.

QUOTE - Some "evidence" for you: Norfolk Navy Yard 1941 (probably July)...not sure why 129 given her pendant number was 67

Dick

Regarding the pictures of ratings wearing H.M.S. FORMIDABLE cap ribbons; my first question would be, can the date and location be verified. Were all the photographs taken at the same time and location and what relevance has the buoy showing HMS I29 or is it 129 and why is the crest not HMS FORMIDABLE’s crest?

If the location is Norfolk (July 1941) what is the mast in the background of the second picture? Presumably the picture post-dates her commissioning in October 1940 added to which the crew are in whites effectively ruling out first commissioning photographs. The mix of ship named ribbons and the standard H.M.S. ribbon in the group photograph also suggests that it was a stage-managed event done for the benefit of the camera. More questions than answers unfortunately!!

Finally a comment regarding the use of the full stop after the ships name and the relevance this has to dating the ribbon. The use of this device continued after the war and was not restricted to ribbons belonging to ships first commissioned before the war. Design of the ribbon, font size and design the material and weave are all important identifying features in assessing those that are authentic ribbons from the reproduction and fake ribbons. There are unfortunately masses of these ribbons offered for sale and, as previously stated, it’s a matter of buyer be aware. It is easy to spend lots of money on worthless junk.

Regards

stontamar

Last edited by stontamar : 28-07-2010 at 22:09. Reason: Spelling
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  #53  
Old 31-07-2010, 18:31
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siggy63 siggy63 is offline
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Default Re: CAP RIBBONS/TALLIES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurs View Post
Wouldn't mind tallies from ship's/establishments I served in......only got one (Keppel), did have (Ceylon) but lost it.!

So Danny........if available, what price roughly and where to buy, for following:-

GANGES, EXCELLENT,CEYLON, ORION,SURPRISE, PHOENICIA, PEMBROKE, AJAX, CHICHESTER.
Mate
Apologies for delay in getting back to you but been off busy getting myself sorted for daughters wedding, day was good and just had grandkids for 2 weeks (help).

Anyway, the tallies you are after have two choices: (1) check navy news I believe a company who advertise on there will create modern weave tallies of your choice, last time I used them was to create a tally to celebrate my lads birth and this now is pinned above his bedroom door (12 years later).

Other way is to find yourself a decent dealer, I use dave down in Dorset area, he has provided me with some nice tallies over the years and have been using him for almost 10 years if not longer..... his prices seem fair, I dont usually compare dealers on prices as like superstores you will always find a cheaper one eventually. I got his number somewhere, I know he does the military collectors fairs etc... and will dig details for you on my next set of days off (wed/thur coming). Am at a militaria fair in Bromley on Sunday 31st July, will take some numbers if I see tallies you after.

There is another way but sometimes takes a bit of time and that is get "Medal News" and watch out for any militaria fairs in your area and pop along.

As for price - depends on how desperate you are, I have seen stupid prices bound around for tallies and have found myself outpriced for quite common tallies. I refuse to pay over 10 for any unit post war, ignore any stories attached to tallies ie. "I got this of a sailor when he left HMS xyz" etc... if it was that important why they selling it then? dealers sell, collectors would rather trade LOL my HMS Hood cost me zip, came from my uncle whose brother died onboard - is it real, possibly, weave is good, style is relevant but who actually knows my HMS Ramilies cost me zip, got given in pub by old fella who saw some of my spare tallies in Dads saloon bar....

Danny
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  #54  
Old 31-07-2010, 20:39
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Scurs Scurs is offline
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Default Re: CAP RIBBONS/TALLIES

Danny..............looking after Grandchildren?....that just about qualifies you for "CDM & Bar"......or at least Sippers!

Seriously, thanks for your comprehensive reply to my query. Starting with Navy News (copy of which is on table), I shall investigate.............also rummage in spare room, there are still some mysterious boxes to check for absent "Ceylon" tally.......when I moved from Cambridge in 1994, things got put in all sorts of places.........might still have tally........somewhere!
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  #55  
Old 01-08-2010, 11:18
stontamar stontamar is offline
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Default Re: CAP RIBBONS/TALLIES

As a cap ribbon collector for 50 years I must say that the companies that are producing fake and reproduction ribbons are an absolute menace and in any other field of collecting would be shunned by serious collectors and in some cases those selling and manufacturing fakes for profit would be prosecuted. So why do people continue to purchase these fakes?

Another point that I believe should be made is that while the original purchaser may know that they are buying a fake or reproduction ribbon I have seen lots of examples where the original purchaser has passed on the ribbon to their family only for their family to believe it is original. I have even seen this process extended to ribbons held by National museums. Fakes bought in and then either by design or by default being treated as original.

It has made the ribbon collecting hobby one that is fraught with danger for unsuspecting collectors and for those that are unable to identify this rubbish a very costly affair. This commercial practice has, in my opinion, completely spoilt the hobby. I have over 3000 ribbons and very rarely add to this number now due to the state of the hobby.

Final point I would make is that with ribbons produced over the last part of the 20th century and into the 21st it is impossible to identify those that are obtained from a genuine service source and those that have been manufactured for the collectors market. With the old type weaved ribbons there was a minimum batch order so, for example, fakes and reproductions tended to be concentrated on well known ships (HOOD, KELLY and ROYAL NAVY DIVISION being but a few well known prime examples and perhaps even more ludicrously the PRINCE OF WALES falls in to this category) but with the modern computer design products (full width gold thread on the reverse of the ribbon) ribbons with any name or unit can be produced as a one off.

Hope this may help any unsuspecting collectors.

Regards

stontamar
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  #56  
Old 01-08-2010, 17:01
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siggy63 siggy63 is offline
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Default Re: CAP RIBBONS/TALLIES

Quote:
Originally Posted by stontamar View Post
As a cap ribbon collector for 50 years I must say that the companies that are producing fake and reproduction ribbons are an absolute menace and in any other field of collecting would be shunned by serious collectors and in some cases those selling and manufacturing fakes for profit would be prosecuted. So why do people continue to purchase these fakes?

Another point that I believe should be made is that while the original purchaser may know that they are buying a fake or reproduction ribbon I have seen lots of examples where the original purchaser has passed on the ribbon to their family only for their family to believe it is original. I have even seen this process extended to ribbons held by National museums. Fakes bought in and then either by design or by default being treated as original.

It has made the ribbon collecting hobby one that is fraught with danger for unsuspecting collectors and for those that are unable to identify this rubbish a very costly affair. This commercial practice has, in my opinion, completely spoilt the hobby. I have over 3000 ribbons and very rarely add to this number now due to the state of the hobby.

Final point I would make is that with ribbons produced over the last part of the 20th century and into the 21st it is impossible to identify those that are obtained from a genuine service source and those that have been manufactured for the collectors market. With the old type weaved ribbons there was a minimum batch order so, for example, fakes and reproductions tended to be concentrated on well known ships (HOOD, KELLY and ROYAL NAVY DIVISION being but a few well known prime examples and perhaps even more ludicrously the PRINCE OF WALES falls in to this category) but with the modern computer design products (full width gold thread on the reverse of the ribbon) ribbons with any name or unit can be produced as a one off.

Hope this may help any unsuspecting collectors.

Regards

stontamar
Mate
Tks for your very serious sounding input! apologies if our little chat about finding an ex-matelot a tally (fake or real) to complete memories seems to have rubbed a sore point but hey ho life goes on.

Collectors soon learn right and wrong, in fact I consider it a right of passage - we all been diddled or in most cases we all just not stepped back and considered the shiney looking tally as being too good to be true - either that or just not having been there seen that or done it, I especially like the collectors who offer me tallies from the trawlers that went down south in '82 - bless em we wore HMS or our last draft or shore base but then again I did have a few made up for crew as mememtoes and I believe so did a lot of other Naval Parties at the time - so thats me in trouble yet again!

You will be pleased to note that the BIG naval museums all have their own systems to check real from fake so the number being stored will be down to all but zero in coming years, most enter after being donated by family members and they are not turned away to save upsetting family who think they are doing what their family member would have wanted.

Still you will be pleased to note that I took great joy in pointing out to a dealer today who was offering a "ROYAL ARTILLERY" pre WWI tally at a very high cost that it was a modern weave tally........ I think the frown and evil glare he gave me said it all....

Danny
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  #57  
Old 01-08-2010, 22:39
jim7966 jim7966 is offline
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Smile Re: CAP RIBBONS/TALLIES

Found the notice finally.
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  #58  
Old 02-08-2010, 10:12
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whalerman whalerman is offline
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Default Re: CAP RIBBONS/TALLIES

Must get up in the loft.
I have in a box a lot of memorabilia from my navy days including Cap Tallies from Ships/Shore Establishment I served in.

Ganges, Dryad, Virago, Undaunted, Ark Royal, Barossa, Cochrane, Keppel and F.O.S.N.I. (Flag Officer Scotland and Northern Ireland). Unfortunately I never got to wear the FOSNI one as I was promoted to Petty Officer on my Draft to MHQ Pitreavie
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  #59  
Old 03-08-2010, 05:39
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Brett Hendey Brett Hendey is offline
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Default Re: CAP RIBBONS/TALLIES

Like Clive, I am not a collector of tallies, but I have three in my 'naval bits and pieces' collection. They are full length, clearly well worn and named to:
HMS KENYA
HMS ZULU
HMS BULWARK

I feel an attachment to the HMS ZULU one, because I live in a province of South Africa that is overrun with Zulus.

Regards
Brett
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  #60  
Old 18-12-2010, 14:13
prattmision prattmision is offline
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Default World Naval Cap Tallies

Are there any collectors of naval cap tallies here?
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  #61  
Old 18-12-2010, 16:10
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
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Question Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

Yes- Why?? Have you got some for sale??


jainso31
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  #62  
Old 18-12-2010, 18:28
prattmision prattmision is offline
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Default Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

Yes, I do Would you like me to send you a list with photos...? Let me know, eh

Best,
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  #63  
Old 18-12-2010, 18:49
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
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Question Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

PS Ithink that what you are trying to do, is a contravention of the Forum Rules-BE ADVISED!
jainso31

Last edited by jainso31 : 18-12-2010 at 19:46. Reason: omission
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  #64  
Old 19-12-2010, 07:57
prattmision prattmision is offline
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Default Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

Thanks.... That's why I am asking first.... I am not posting anything without interest or permission

Best,

ex-LS CN
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  #65  
Old 19-12-2010, 20:18
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jbryce1437 jbryce1437 is offline
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Default Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

There is the option to exchange email addresses via Private Message and communicate with each other that way.

Jim
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  #66  
Old 20-12-2010, 10:50
prattmision prattmision is offline
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Default Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

ok, thanks...

Well, I have a lot of World naval cap-tallies... this is my old collection. So, if any body has an interest please drop me a line via private message and I will send you a full list with photos...

Thanks and Merry Christmas to all!
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  #67  
Old 20-12-2010, 18:47
prattmision prattmision is offline
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Default Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

Yes to your question :-)

I will need to look for the other as I have more than 2800 cap-tallies from all over the World.

Best,
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  #68  
Old 24-12-2010, 11:31
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
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Smile Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

pm me re."damage"etc. and I'll take it from there. It must be done by pm.
seasonal greetings
jainso31

Last edited by jainso31 : 24-12-2010 at 12:18. Reason: omission
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  #69  
Old 02-01-2011, 09:27
prattmision prattmision is offline
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Default Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

Hi, I was trying to send you PM but I got a message that you do not accept PMs or you have this function inactive ...???

For the list of cap-tallies you can drop me a line:

rbsorb [at] lycos.com


Happy New Year to all!
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  #70  
Old 04-01-2011, 10:16
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
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Smile Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

Happy New Year to you-I do not have my Pm function disabled, so far as I am aware; but i will be in touch via email.
jainso31
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  #71  
Old 31-01-2011, 10:48
navyman navyman is offline
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Default Re: World Naval Cap Tallies for Sale

Quote:
Originally Posted by prattmision View Post
Perhaps someone has an interest in World naval cap-tallies...?

If so, please visit my site (which I'm sure is available via search engines - kc)
interested yes but what is` your site
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  #72  
Old 31-01-2011, 14:15
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
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Angry Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

This member did not bother to reply when I indicated an interest in a few of his wares.Enough for me!!


jainso31
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  #73  
Old 31-01-2011, 14:34
Nigel999 Nigel999 is offline
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Default Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

Speaking of tallies. As a medal collector, I sometimes inherit them along with medals and ephemera and have pondered from time to time on potential value.

One in particular is a LION tally with provenance. When the collector purchased the medals/ephemera from the sailors widow in the late 60's he kept all the correspondence, including mention of paying her extra for the tally. The sailor was in LION at Jutland (bounty paid) and was still serving in her at the time of the surrender of the German Fleet. (His proudest moment according to his widow)

Is it possible to ask what kind of value this tally could hold ? I'll mention I have no intention at all of splitting these items up , (vandalism in my eyes) but I'd be interested to have a rough idea from sheer curiosity.

Cheers, Nigel
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  #74  
Old 31-01-2011, 15:05
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
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Cool Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

Nigel I think you have to look at the cap tally as substantial additional provenance-so let us say the group plus tally were 250.The numbers are unimportant.Split the tally off the group and sell for 60 and now the group is worth 150=loss of 40.The value of the tally on its own is immaterial but
its worth is whatever you can get for it-to the detriment of the group.

jainso31
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  #75  
Old 31-01-2011, 16:06
Nigel999 Nigel999 is offline
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Default Re: World Naval Cap Tallies

Quote:
Originally Posted by jainso31 View Post
Nigel I think you have to look at the cap tally as substantial additional provenance-so let us say the group plus tally were 250.The numbers are unimportant.Split the tally off the group and sell for 60 and now the group is worth 150=loss of 40.The value of the tally on its own is immaterial but
its worth is whatever you can get for it-to the detriment of the group.

jainso31
I don't think I really made myself clear. When I bought the archive, I paid what was to all intents and purposes the market rate for the medal group alone. The ephemera in this case had no significance on the price I paid.

In fact, the only thing I did know of other than the medals was the sailors parchment.

As I have already clearly stated I have no intention of splitting the items.

So you see, if and when I sell the group, a value for the tally, helps me to accurately assess a reasonable sale price. I know about the medals and other ephemera , but I have not a clue of what to expect value wise for the tally. Helps to set a reserve if selling by auction by example.
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