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  #101  
Old 11-06-2010, 00:12
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berry berry is offline
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Default Re: Did Admiral John Byng deserve to be executed?

good morning Seagull,
The sad Story of Admiral Byng brings to mind that other controversial victim of a firing squad.145 years later,Pretorial Gaol,South Africa, Lt.Harry Harbord Morant(The Breaker) of the Bushsveldt Carbineers executed by a Cameron Highlander's firing squad.Still hotly debated here in Oz,though I doubt that Admiral Byng would have asked his executioners to "shoot straight you B......s!"
Regards
Sid
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  #102  
Old 11-06-2010, 07:21
Alaric Alaric is offline
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Default Re: Did Admiral John Byng deserve to be executed?

As an aside, forty years after Byng's death, Admiral Robert Man was ordered to support John Jervis, and the Med. fleet with seven ships of the line. He duly reported, but had not ensured that his ships were properly provisioned, (or in a good state of repair). Consequently Jervis ordered him back to Gib. to provision. On the way he encountered a substantial Spanish fleet, which he managed to avoid. But by his own addmision, he decided that the Med. was too hot a station, and took all seven ships back to England, leaving Jervis unsupported (and arguably forcing him to abandon the Med.). Man's punishment was a reproving letter from the Admiralty, and the loss of his command.

Maybe "men were becoming more merciful", as Mahan later stated, or possibly there was no need for a political scapegoat?
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  #103  
Old 11-06-2010, 10:23
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patroclus patroclus is offline
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Default Re: Did Admiral John Byng deserve to be executed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaric View Post
As an aside, forty years after Byng's death, Admiral Robert Man was ordered to support John Jervis, and the Med. fleet with seven ships of the line. He duly reported, but had not ensured that his ships were properly provisioned, (or in a good state of repair). Consequently Jervis ordered him back to Gib. to provision. On the way he encountered a substantial Spanish fleet, which he managed to avoid. But by his own addmision, he decided that the Med. was too hot a station, and took all seven ships back to England, leaving Jervis unsupported (and arguably forcing him to abandon the Med.). Man's punishment was a reproving letter from the Admiralty, and the loss of his command.

Maybe "men were becoming more merciful", as Mahan later stated, or possibly there was no need for a political scapegoat?

Man may have been in a different category. He appears to have suffered a nervous breakdown. Part of the blame must attach to Jervis who should have relieved him earlier. Jervis had written to the First Lord on 27th July, 1796: "Poor Admiral Man has been afflicted with a distempered mind during the last nine months.....".
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  #104  
Old 06-12-2010, 11:34
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Default Re: Did Admiral John Byng deserve to be executed?

Alaric and Patroclus

Thank you for posting this information. Very interesting. Can you suggest any web sites that elaborates on Admiral Robert Mann's plight?
Seagull

Last edited by Seagull : 06-12-2010 at 12:28. Reason: spelling mistake
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  #105  
Old 06-12-2010, 12:31
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Default Re: Did Admiral John Byng deserve to be executed?

Berry / Sid

Sorry taken ages to reply. Thank you very much for your information.

I am amazed to find this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoats_of_the_Empire

Very interesting. Fascinating!
Seagull
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  #106  
Old 07-12-2010, 04:42
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Default Re: Did Admiral John Byng deserve to be executed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seagull View Post
Alaric and Patroclus

Thank you for posting this information. Very interesting. Can you suggest any web sites that elaborates on Admiral Robert Mann's plight?
Seagull
I know of no web sites.

Man was ordered to strike his flag and come on shore and was not employed again at sea but he obviously had some political interest because he joined the Board of Admiralty in 1798 and remained there until St. Vincent replaced Lord Spencer in 1801. Man, prior to sickness, was apparently a capable officer. In 1795 Nelson commented favourably on him.
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  #107  
Old 07-12-2010, 13:32
tim lewin tim lewin is offline
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

in Adam Nicolson's excellent and highly detailed book on Nelson "Sieze the Fire" there is a report of Sir Robert Calder who in early 1805 fell into battle with Villeneuve's fleet of 20 compared with his own 15; he engaged, captured two Spanish ships before night came on and the fleets lost each other. folowing day he wanted to secure his prizes and repair damage so when Villeneuve came back out of Ferrol with his 18 ships plus 15 more that had been bottled up there Calder did not seek to re-engage at such odds.
The press in England were filled with contempt for his failure to destroy the powerful enemy and "not exerting his utmost to get into action"....
He was subjected to public ignomy and tried, severely reprimanded and never went to sea again. it was probably only the defence made by Nelson before Trafalgar that saved him from worse.
tim
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  #108  
Old 25-02-2011, 18:37
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Interesting information Tim.

Re. Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed:

There will be 52 TOLLS FOR ADMIRAL JOHN BYNG on 14th March 2011 :

Mr Colin Mc Cartney, the Tower Captain of All Saints' Church, Southill, Bedfordshire, where Admiral Byng lies buried for 254 years, will toll the tenor bell of the church 52 times at noon 14th March, 2011 in honour of Admiral John Byng. Each toll represents one year of Admiral Byng's life.

Admiral Byng was executed as a political scapegoat in 1757.

Every year since the 250th Anniversary of the execution in 2007, there has been an event or some symbolic mark of Admiral Byng's death.

Please pass this information on to whoever may be interested.

Any feed-back most welcome.

Seagull

Last edited by Dreadnought : 10-03-2011 at 14:17. Reason: Edited as requested
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  #109  
Old 26-02-2011, 14:11
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Anyone out there interested?
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  #110  
Old 27-02-2011, 08:19
Alaric Alaric is offline
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seagull View Post
Anyone out there interested?
Yes, I've been following this; the fact that an injustice occurred many years ago hardly excuses it.

With regard to Calder, he was also present at St Vincent, as Captain of the Fleet. Despite the subsequent knighthood, he would appear to have been something of a "Job's Comforter" to Jervis. He was selected to carry the news of victory back to England, usually a mark of approbation from a commander, although I wonder is Sir John just wanted to get rid of him?
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  #111  
Old 27-02-2011, 12:17
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Hello Alaric

Thank you for responding. Very pleased to learn that someone is following this thread. Good to know you are interested.

Anyone else out there? I am hoping to keep this Admiral Byng thread in the 'New Posts' right up until 14th March. "We will remember them!"

Seagull
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  #112  
Old 27-02-2011, 16:14
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Hi Seagull,

You've got another follower here. I do hope that one day Admiral Byng's family will see some justice for their ancestor, in that he at least has his name cleared.

It was a terrible thing to have happened to him and it does seem that he was used as a scapegoat.

We'll be thinking of him on the 14th and I'll let others know too. As you say: "We will remember them."

For those not "up to speed" on what happened to Admiral John Byng, check out this, from Wikipedia :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Byng

Regards,

Bee
p.s. It is good of you to keep this thread going. (I'm sure that there are others out there, who are following this thread, with interest...but just not adding anything, because they haven't any further information to contribute.)

Last edited by Bee : 27-02-2011 at 16:38.
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  #113  
Old 28-02-2011, 18:54
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Seagull Seagull is offline
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Hello Bee

Good to hear from you again on this thread! You were the first to welcome me on WNSF. So I will remember you too!

Again I post the following information hoping to reach all the corners of the world:

"There will be 52 TOLLS FOR ADMIRAL JOHN BYNG on 14th March 2011 :

Mr Colin Mc Cartney, the Tower Captain of All Saints' Church, Southill, Bedfordshire, where Admiral Byng lies buried for 254 years, will toll the tenor bell of the church 52 times at noon 14th March, 2011 in honour of Admiral John Byng. Each toll represents one day of Admiral Byng's life.

Admiral Byng was executed as a political scapegoat in 1757.

Every year since the 250th Anniversary of the execution in 2007, there has been some symbolic event to mark Admiral Byng's death. This year, 2011, the bells ring out to heaven for Admiral Byng."

Please pass on this information to other Naval web sites - and anyone who may be the least bit interested. Any feed back - very welcome. (Even to say that you are following it. No need to add any unique information!)

We will remember them.
Seagull
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  #114  
Old 01-03-2011, 01:23
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patroclus patroclus is offline
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Has anyone read Chris Ware's book "Admiral Byng; His Rise and Execution", Pen & Sword, 2008?
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  #115  
Old 01-03-2011, 07:34
Alaric Alaric is offline
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Nope, but it has gone on the list.
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  #116  
Old 01-03-2011, 07:59
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Smile Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Seagull,thanks for that ,always keeping an eye on this one,Bee's right,if nothing to contribute ,let it go through to 'keeper.
kind regards
Sid
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  #117  
Old 01-03-2011, 10:55
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Seagull Seagull is offline
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Hello to all who are interested in and especially to all those who have responded to '52 Tenor Bells for Admiral Byng' and to all who view this message:

Anyone around in or near Southill, Bedfordshire, England, Great Britain
at noon on 14th March?

Re Chris Ware's book: I have read it and interested to learn comments from others. (I posted my comments a few minutes ago and lost the whole lot in the air! I will attempt again in a while.)

Seagull
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  #118  
Old 02-03-2011, 21:35
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Patroclus

Have you read Ware's book? Published by Pen & Sword in 2009? I challenge you to make the first comment!

Seagull
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  #119  
Old 02-03-2011, 21:48
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seagull View Post
Patroclus

Have you read Ware's book? Published by Pen & Sword in 2009? I challenge you to make the first comment!

Seagull
No, I have not read it and I am endeavouring to obtain opinions on it with a view to buying it.

What happened to your aerial comments?
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  #120  
Old 03-03-2011, 09:42
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Hello Patroclus

I'm still angry with the system and with myself for not recording the flow of words on a Word doc first - therefore need a bit more time to gathering them again. Good to find someone who is interested.

Also: I need to correct information about The Bells of Southill ! :

Mr Colin Mc Cartney, the Tower Captain of All Saints' Church, Southill, Bedfordshire, where Admiral Byng lies buried for 254 years, will toll the tenor bell of the church 52 times at noon 14th March, 2011 in honour of Admiral John Byng. Each toll represents one day of Admiral Byng's life.

Ie: it is not 52 bells that will ring - but one bell that will ring 52 times. Any bell- ringers out there to throw light on correct terminology? 'Tolling', 'ringing', 'to toll', 'to ring', and what is the importance of the 'Tenor Bell'?

Seagull
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  #121  
Old 03-03-2011, 09:56
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patroclus patroclus is offline
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

I am no authority on bells but the OED has:

" tenor bell n. the largest bell of a peal or set."

The tenor bell at Westminster Abbey is the one that tolls for the death of a member of the Royal family.
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  #122  
Old 03-03-2011, 10:52
Bee Bee is offline
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Hi Seagull,
I've sent you a p.m.
Regards,
Bee
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  #123  
Old 03-03-2011, 11:16
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Interesting! You've got me searching OED - yet this popped up!:

World English Dictionary:
tenor (ˈtɛnə)

n
1. music
a. the male voice intermediate between alto and baritone, having a range approximately from the B a ninth below middle C to the G a fifth above it
b. a singer with such a voice
c. a saxophone, horn, recorder, etc, intermediate in compass and size between the alto and baritone or bass
d. ( as modifier ): a tenor sax
2. general drift of thought; purpose: to follow the tenor of an argument
3. a. (in early polyphonic music) the part singing the melody or the cantus firmus
b. (in four-part harmony) the second lowest part lying directly above the bass
4. bell-ringing
a. the heaviest and lowest-pitched bell in a ring
b. ( as modifier ): a tenor bell

As I am now confused what sound this Tenor Bell will make - I Googled
and found a music forum - and pleased that I am not the only one confused by frequencies:

'Dolces@piano' (29th April 2010) blogs: "In French, high notes are 'aigu' which, outside of music, means intense or pointed or acute (and also, more in line with high, means sharp or shrill). Low notes are 'grave' which means heavy or serious or important."

'Buffy' (28th April 2010) blogs: ( In Turkish 'yüksek' (high) actually means loud - although 'dü?ük' (low) doesn't mean quiet. For high notes they say 'ince' (thin) and for low notes they say 'kal?n' (thick).

In English ?: See: http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=41904

Where does the word 'Blog' come from I wonder. Or am I getting way off the point on a Naval Forum?


Seagull
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  #124  
Old 04-03-2011, 17:59
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Patroclus: Re 'Admiral Byng: His Rise and Execution' by Chris Ware:

If you are interested in the history surrounding Admiral John Byng and his execution, there is yet to be written a better book about the subject than Dudley Popes At Twelve Mr Byng was Shot originally published by Weidenfeld and Nicolson, London 1962 and republished in paperback by Phoenix press 2002. Pope says it all - but perhaps you know this.
If you are looking for new or recent developments or information (eg the seeking of the exoneration) you will not find it in Ware's book.

Perhaps there is no interest in a more detailed response?

Bee
Thanks for trying to make contact. I need to save the messages before emptying my PM box. Taking a bit of time. So I have not received it yet.

Yesterday I wrote the first thing that came to mind (or the first thing that came up on Google!) merely to keep this thread going each day until 14th March when the Tenor Bell will ring 52 times in a small church in England.
Seagull
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  #125  
Old 04-03-2011, 21:36
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Default Re: Admiral John Byng: Did he Deserve to be Executed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seagull View Post
Patroclus: Re 'Admiral Byng: His Rise and Execution' by Chris Ware:

If you are interested in the history surrounding Admiral John Byng and his execution, there is yet to be written a better book about the subject than Dudley Popes At Twelve Mr Byng was Shot originally published by Weidenfeld and Nicolson, London 1962 and republished in paperback by Phoenix press 2002. Pope says it all - but perhaps you know this.
If you are looking for new or recent developments or information (eg the seeking of the exoneration) you will not find it in Ware's book.

Perhaps there is no interest in a more detailed response?

Seagull
Seagull:
You seem reluctant to give your views on Chris Wares book.
I am familiar with Popes work.
My opinion in the matter has not changed from that expressed in Post #92. I think the Court Martial reached the correct verdict but that the Government and the King should have acted on the Courts recommendation to mercy and commuted the sentence to dismissal from the Service.
I do not believe that there was a good case for his execution.
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