Nuclear Submarine Collision: HMS Vanguard & Le Triomphant

[designeraccd]

British and French nuclear submarines collide in Atlantic
Two British and French nuclear submarines collided in heavy seas in the Atlantic.

By Aislinn Simpson
Last Updated: 7:02AM GMT 16 Feb 2009

HMS Vanguard, which is beleived to have been involved in an underwater collision with a French submarine Photo: MOD
HMS Vanguard and Le Triomphant are understood to have both been severely damaged in the underwater accident earlier this month.

Both are fitted with state-of-the-art technology aimed at detecting other submarines, but it apparently failed completely.

Although both France and Britain insist that security was not compromised during the collision and there was no danger of a nuclear incident, inquiries are now under way in both countries.

Each boat is a key part of their respective county's nuclear deterrent, ready to unleash their destructive weapons at a moment's notice.

French Navy sources confirm that Le Triomphant, one of four strategic nuclear submarines of the so-called "Force de Frappe", was returning from a 70 day tour of duty when the incident occurred.

It happened in heavy seas, and in the middle of the night between February 3 and 4, and left Le Triomphant's sonar dome all but destroyed.

The sonar dome should have detected the Vanguard but Le Triomphant's crew of 101 claimed to have "neither saw nor heard anything".

The French tried to play down the collision, with a Navy spokesman saying: "The collision did not result in injuries among the crew and did not jeopardise nuclear security at any moment."

The Ministry of Defence would not even confirm it had taken place. A spokesman said: "It is MoD policy not to comment on submarine operational matters, but we can confirm that the UK's deterrent capability has remained unaffected at all times and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety."

Le Triomphant took at least three days to limp back to her home port, while HMS Vanguard returned to her home base in Faslane, in Scotland.

With a complement of 135 crew, she is the lead boat of the Vanguard class of submarines which carry Trident ballistic missiles around the world.

Le Triomphant is also the lead ship in her own class of Triomphant nuclear submarines.

Each carries 16 M45 ballistic missiles, weighs 35 tons each, carries six warheads and has a range of around 5,000 miles.

France's Atlantic coast is notorious for being a "submarine graveyard" because of the number of underwater craft, mainly German U-boats, sunk in the area during the Second World War.


Neither Navy needed that! DFO

[kc]

I will hear very soon if the Vanguard has any 'dents' in her as reported on the news this morning, and their severity. News like that travels fast around here.

(i.e. Helensburgh, the main town serving Faslane)

[John Odom]

Thanks, Most interesting. Keep us informed! John

[mik43]

strange this as it was reported on France 24 over a week ago but only that a French nuclear submarine had had a bump.

As the Beeb defence reporter, who is actually very good and knows her stuff, said, maybe all this stealth stuff was to stealth and made each other invisible. The Beeb then went and spoilt it all by showing Vanguard with her dents etc, except it was a nice pic of a tug and the floating security boom!!

Mik

[CGRET]

Mik,

It has been on the new's here in the U.S. Apparently here it's a big story. They are questioning why this happened. But as usuall the press here tend's to go to extreme's at time's!


Regards
Charles

This is the report in The Times today:

A British nuclear submarine collided with a French sub in the Atlantic because sophisticated antisonar equipment made them undetectable to each other, it was claimed yesterday.

The French submarine Le Triomphant remained unaware that it had rammed and damaged HMS Vanguard until days later, when it was informed by the Royal Navy. Both vessels were carrying nuclear ballistic warheads while on secret patrols when they crashed this month.

Official inquiries have started in Britain and France, amid concerns regarding the sharing of military information between the allied navies.

The French Navy claimed this month that the bow sonar dome of Le Triomphant was probably damaged in a collision with a submerged shipping container while returning from patrol. It only discovered that it had hit a British submarine after one of the regular exchanges of information with the Royal Navy.

Nato countries exchange details about the areas and depths in which their submarines will operate during patrols. France has opted out of Nato’s military command, however, so does not share detailed information, although it normally provides some data about its submarine operations.

The First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, said that the collision happened at low speed and none of the 240 crew on board the submarines was injured. “Two submerged [ballistic nuclear submarines], one French and the other UK, were conducting routine national patrols in the Atlantic Ocean,” he said. “Both submarines remained safe and no injuries occurred. We can confirm that the capability remained unaffected and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety.”

The collision is understood to have occurred on February 3 or 4. HMS Vanguard returned to its base in Faslane, western Scotland, on Saturday with dents and scrapes on its hull. Le Triomphant took three days to limp home to port in Brest, northwest France, with extensive damage to its Thales DMUX 80 sonar. Repairs to the two vessels are reported to have been estimated at £50 million.

The French Navy confirmed that the collision took place in the Atlantic on a routine patrol and at great depth but would not disclose the location for security reasons.

Captain Jérôme Erulin said that such collisions were extremely unlikely but always possible between two submarines that are designed to evade detection. “It was a brief contact at slow speed,” he said. “The slow speed at the moment of the incident is their normal patrol speed. There was no human error.”

A Royal Navy source said that the chances of two submarines colliding in the mid-Atlantic were very small. He said that submarines used “water space management” to separate themselves both geographically and in depth from other vessels. “It is remarkably difficult to detect a modern submarine with sonar and we work very hard with our own submarines, as do our allies, in making them as quiet as possible so they are not detectable.”

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane’s Fighting Ships, said: “This is a very serious incident. There are procedural issues that need addressing. We should not have submarines of friendly nations operating in the same area at the same time.”

HMS Vanguard, which was launched in 1992, is one of four British submarines capable of carrying up to 16 Trident ballistic nuclear missiles with up to eight warheads. At least one of the submarines is on patrol at any time.

The 14,335-tonne Le Triomphant, which entered service in 1997, also carries up to 16 nuclear missiles, with six warheads, and is one of four nuclear-armed submarines in the French fleet.

Vice-Admiral John McAnally, president of the Royal Naval Association, said that it was a “one in a million chance” that the two vessels collided. He said: “It would be very unusual on deterrent patrol to use active sonar because that would expose the submarine to detection.”

Liam Fox, the Shadow Defence Secretary, said that the crash showed the inherent danger of military operations. “For two submarines to collide, apparently unaware of each other’s presence, is extremely worrying. Hopefully, lessons have been learnt.”

Kate Hudson, from the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, said: “This is a nuclear nightmare of the highest order. The collision of two submarines, both with nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons on board, could have released vast amounts of radiation and scattered scores of nuclear warheads across the seabed.”

John Large, an independent nuclear analyst who advised the Russian Government after its Kursk submarine sank in 2000, said that the incident could have been far worse. “The real risk is if you have a fire on board caused by the impact,” he said. “Each warhead has about 30kg-50kg [66lb to 110lb] of high explosive around it. That would burn and your plutonium core would burn as well. That would disperse into the atmosphere and be a major problem.”

The incident is the most serious underwater collision since the USS San Francisco hit an undersea mountain in the Pacific head-on in 2005, killing one sailor and injuring 24 others.

Lee Willett, of the Royal United Services Institute for Defence and Security Studies, said that Britain and France would be very reticent to share information on what their nuclear submarines were up to. “Despite how close these relations are, they are the ultimate tools of national survival in the event of war,” he said.
---------------------------

It strikes me that both countries are falling over themselves to try to play this down.

[astraltrader]

I suppose Le Triomphant is Left Hand Drive?

[CGRET]

I could see why the two governments are falling over themselves. Considering the 2 submarines involved are part of the Stratagic Deterrent Force. This cry's for more cooperation between the powers in the region to avoid a repeat. Let's hope a serious lesson can come out of this.

Moreover the rest of the world should be paying attention to this!

Regards
Charles

Left hand drive indeed!

[battlestar]

G'Day All

Two subs. One Ocean...One small-I mean big Ocean...

I'm sorry, but YA GOT TO BE KIDDING HERE! Both subs are supposed to be the most advanced their nations have put to sea and they hit each other?

You can look at it another way though, you now know that both subs were undetectable! Especially to each other!

Battlestar

[Derek Dicker]

this smells of a cat and mouse situation

[mike d]

Am I correct in understanding that the damage to BOTH subs was forward on the sonar domes? I look forward to receiving intel from our 'spy' at Faslane!

[mik43]

Terry
I think the Vanguard is left-hand drive!!!
Mik

[John Odom]

I seem to remember that several years ago (10 or more) Toshiba was fined for leaking US submarine stealth technology to the Russians. I think Toshiba made the CNC machine to machine the finished surface on the propellers of the nuke subs. Were they really invisible to each other, or were the crews "asleep at the switch?"

We will probably never get official answers. I'm sure the ruskies and Chinese already have full reports!

[ivorthediver]

Anyone got any comments on this recent "accident" with our dear neighbors
submarine

[qprdave]

Originally Posted by ivorthediver

Anyone got any comments on this recent "accident" with our dear neighbors
submarine

I just can't understand how it happened. Could it be that the Vanguard had reintroduced the Tot?

Submarine passive SONAR is fantastic. When I was on the Russell, we left Gibraltar and we were due to meet up with the Dreadnought. As we got into the Atlantic, she picked up our H.E. from the other side of the Bay of Biscay and tracked us all the way across. Now this was in 1972. I imagine that SONAR has come along way since then.

Admittedly, Modern Submarines are designed to be almost silent.

But if they are silent. What is the point of having hunter killer Submarines?

[Macadian]

Saw this on another site...classic....

Ooops...Submarines collide...

[ivorthediver]

About says it all a lads...

I know the problem .....Not enough STOKERS.....not realy hard to work out eh

I to thought the same Dave........... so who was not doing their job one wonders.... in BOTH SUBMARINES AT THE SAME TIME .... worrying
i

[qprdave]

Originally Posted by ivorthediver

About says it all a lads...

I know the problem .....Not enough STOKERS.....not realy hard to work out eh

I to thought the same Dave........... so who was not doing their job one wonders.... in BOTH SUBMARINES AT THE SAME TIME .... worrying
i

Don't get me started on Stokers again, Ivor. I have just started to calm down after my last rant. LOL

[ivorthediver]

Hi Dave ...if you go to "Poems and stories by Navel men ...you will see that I asked Baz to offer a NAVEL Nanny service for STOKERS but he didnt seem very keen about it....Don't know why

[qprdave]

Originally Posted by ivorthediver

Hi Dave ...if you go to "Poems and stories by Navel men ...you will see that I asked Baz to offer a NAVEL Nanny service for STOKERS but he didnt seem very keen about it....Don't know why

I can't remember ever hearing that term, Ivor. I bet it wasn't very complimentary.

[ivorthediver]

I only asked him to read bed time stories to up tight stokers but all he could offer were lullabyes

[qprdave]

Originally Posted by ivorthediver

I only asked him to read bed time stories to up tight stokers but all he could offer were lullabyes

I though that it was the Chief Stoker's job to tuck them in and read them stories about stokers battling and winning against nasty dragons (and I'm not talking about the girls down the Gut)

[astraltrader]

I have merged the two threads on the collision between the submarines.

It is important that before starting a new thread, every effort is made to check that there is not already a thread in existence dealing with the same subject. As the forum grows this "good housekeeping" will keep the forum easy to navigate. We also have to think of new members joining the forum.

Your co-operation with this is appreciated.

[ivorthediver]

Good Housekeeping ?

I'm not sure about the other lads but my French is very Basic.

I don't understand why our threads are moved to the French Ship site as we were looking at the English side of the argument as to what went wrong not our dear Neighbours ineptitude......