Dummy Capital Ships

[Chris White]

Hi there

Would anyone have photos in their collections of any of the following Dummy Capital Ships from World War 1 please

HMS Invincible
HMS King George V
HMS Iron Duke
HMS Marlborough
HMS Audacious
HMS St. Vincent
or
HMS Queen Mary

Chris

[jbryce1437]

I can recall seeing a photograph of one of these ships at Scapa Flow, positioned as a decoy. I will try and locate it.

[jbryce1437]

I believe that this photo contains a number of decoys at Scapa, no names of ships with pic though.

[Rorqual]

Have a pic of Invincible but need to scan it.

The WW1 dummy battle ships and battle cruisers were all reverted to cargo vessels by November 1915 couple sunk as blockships and one sunk by UB 8
in the Aegean May 1915[Tiger ex Merion]


Fred

[SCRG1970]

Chris

Can recommend the following volume plus illustrations.

ISBN 7274 0263 3

Regards

gerry

[tjstoneman]

Post #3 shows the three merchant ships which were converted in the early part of the Second World War to represent a couple of 'R' class battleships and HMS HERMES. They spent much of their time in Scapa Flow to give the impression that the Home Fleet was larger than it really was.

[kc]

We have two photos on the site of dummy capital ships; unfortunately only HMS Orion and HMS Vanguard though. If we get any more (other than via the forum) they will be posted on this page :

http://www.worldnavalships.com/dummy_capital_ships.htm

[Chris White]

Thank you all very much,

Chris

[astraltrader]

I do have this picture which might well prove to be of interest.

It is a picture taken in 1942 of the old battleship HMS Centurion which was rigged up to be a "dummy" modern battleship - HMS Anson.

She was originally disarmed in between the two World Wars other than being fitted with batteries of AA guns. She was then rigged up with dummy 13.5" guns to resemble a modern Battleship, because since the sinking of Valiant and Queen Elizabeth at Alexandria during December 1941, the Royal Navy had no Battleships at all in the Meditteranean to act as a deterrant against incursions by units of the Italian Navy.

It was dressed up in this garb with her dummy 13.5 inch guns that she travelled the eastern Mediterranean as part of the escort for Operation Vigorous - a plan to supply Malta that left Haifa and Port Said on the 12th June 1942. The convoy consisted of 11 supply ships with a large group of escorts, consisting of 8 cruisers, 26 destroyers plus the Centurion.

As it turned out due to heavy losses the convoy never reached Malta, turning back on the 15th and headed back to Alexandria having lost a cruiser, 3 destroyers and 2 Merchant ships + many others damaged.

After this the Centurion spent the next 2 years stationed off Suez employed in a dual role - firstly to discourage with her dummy 13.5" guns any appearance by the Regia Marina and secondly to give service as an AA ship.

Eventually after a successful deployment she was transferred to Normandy where she finally ended her long career by being sunk as a block ship...

[astraltrader]

As another treat for you I have combed some more of my hard drive and this time come up with a picture of SS Perthshire dressed up as the First World War Battleship HMS Vanguard.

[ObiWanRussell]

Originally Posted by astraltrader

I do have this picture which might well prove to be of interest.

It is a picture taken in 1942 of the old battleship HMS Centurion which was rigged up to be a "dummy" modern battleship - HMS Anson.

She was originally disarmed in between the two World Wars other than being fitted with batteries of AA guns. She was then rigged up with dummy 13.5" guns to resemble a modern Battleship, because since the sinking of Valiant and Queen Elizabeth at Alexandria during December 1941, the Royal Navy had no Battleships at all in the Meditteranean to act as a deterrant against incursions by units of the Italian Navy.

It was dressed up in this garb with her dummy 13.5 inch guns that she travelled the eastern Mediterranean as part of the escort for Operation Vigorous - a plan to supply Malta that left Haifa and Port Said on the 12th June 1942. The convoy consisted of 11 supply ships with a large group of escorts, consisting of 8 cruisers, 26 destroyers plus the Centurion.

As it turned out due to heavy losses the convoy never reached Malta, turning back on the 15th and headed back to Alexandria having lost a cruiser, 3 destroyers and 2 Merchant ships + many others damaged.

After this the Centurion spent the next 2 years stationed off Suez employed in a dual role - firstly to discourage with her dummy 13.5" guns any appearance by the Regia Marina and secondly to give service as an AA ship.

Eventually after a successful deployment she was transferred to Normandy where she finally ended her long career by being sunk as a block ship...

Minor point, but as Centurion was disguised as a KGV class Battleship, wouldn't her guns have been dummy 14" instead of dummy 13.5"? Or couldn't they find logs big enough...

[astraltrader]

I take your point. Part of the problem is that I got the details of her disguise including the construction of 13.5" guns from two sources which both constantly referred to her being "done up" to resemble a "modern RN Battleship" rather than to any specific one.
Then there is the picture I obtained from elsewhere detailing the impersonation as being of Anson.

I hope that explains the slight contradiction - but hopefully the Italians did not get near enough to measure the difference!!

[ObiWanRussell]

Originally Posted by astraltrader

I take your point. Part of the problem is that I got the details of her disguise including the construction of 13.5" guns from two sources which both constantly referred to her being "done up" to resemble a "modern RN Battleship" rather than to any specific one.
Then there is the picture I obtained from elsewhere detailing the impersonation as being of Anson.

I hope that explains the slight contradiction - but hopefully the Italians did not get near enough to measure the difference!!

Fair enough. But 6 inches means a lot to some people!

Whilst disguised as Anson, did she have any real armament? I'm presuming she had anti aircraft guns and something to fight off destroyers at least, since she was used as a convoy escort (so I've heard anyway).

[astraltrader]

All I know is that she had a full compliment of AA guns - but I dont think that she had much else...

[tjstoneman]

According to H T Lenton British and Empire Warships of the Second World War (London: Greenhill Books, 1998), she was armed with 2x1 2pr and 8x1 20mm when converted as a blockship, and a further 2x1 2pdr and 9x1 20mm when being prepared for her role in Op VIGOROUS. She was intended as an AA escort, and was not expected to engage enemy surface craft - although it was hoped her appearance would deter the latter.

As mentioned earlier, Hampshire's The Phantom Fleet is well worth getting hold of, for CENTURION's story as well as those of the other dummies from both World Wars.

Tim

[Batstiger]

Taken from The London Illustrated News.

Dummy Battleships made of wood: Vessels that were used in the war as breakwaters and as cover for troops.
One of the naval curiosities brought into being by the war, when there was no limit to the devices imagined by human ingenuity, was the dummy Battleship. Moored in a harbour where a landing was planned, it would act as a breakwater and as cover for the disembarkation of troops and provisions. As a decoy to lure the enemy, wooden dummies could be used in the open sea.

Regards, Bob.

[Andy3E]

Hey all, ive been reading 'Flagship Hood' and in Chapter 14

As one Hood moved out of Clydeside on 30 March, so another moved in. The newcomer was one of Churchill's decoys. On his third day back at the Admiralty he had revived the First World War idea of constructing dummy capital ships to fool enemy reconnaissance planes. With the approval of Admiral Pound, he had ordered six decoy frames to be set up on merchant ships, but only three were built. We considered ourselves fortunate that we had a 'double', and indeed it served its purpose because I understand it took the people of Greenock several days to tumble to it that the real Hood had gone. My older 'oppo' on the flag deck, Marine Holding, was in trouble with his girl friend ashore because of the dummy. She, too, believed that the Hood was in port and thought that, because she was not seeing him, he had ditched her!

I've seen Picture of HMS Centurion doubling as HMS Anson, but have never seen any pictures or heard any other info about the other decoys, was wondering if anyone here might have some more information and possible some pics?

Cheers

Andy

[qprdave]

If you look here at the Forum's Parent site you will find dummy ships and pics from WWI

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.u...ital_ships.htm

[tjstoneman]

As qprdave says, there are photos of some of the First World War dummy battleships on the parent site. There's also a thread on this site which has a picture of the three original Second World War dummies (representing two "R" class battleships and the carrier HERMES) on this site (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forum...ead.php?t=3037) - it also has a photo of CENTURION.

Tim

[astraltrader]

Thanks for linking the forums existing thread on dummy battleships Tim - appreciated.

[Andy3E]

Thanks Guys

I Posted he question on the HMS Hood Forum and got a couple of replies i thought might interest ya here,

Hi Andy, some more info for you-

http://www.thewarillustrated.info/21...ed-the-hun.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_tender

there are some photos though there is this site-

http://www.maritimequest.com/warship..._centurion.htm

And HMS Centurion during the Normandy storm-

http://www.privateletters.net/PHOTOS...Normandy35.jpg

Dummy HMS Hermes-

http://www.hazegray.org/mysteries/oldmyst/pic04.jpg

regards Collin

Hello Andy.

There was a group of ship's nicknamed "Winston's Wonder's" these were merchant ship's that went under the class of Fleet Tender's simple called Fleet Tender A, B and C. A and B resembled Resolution and Revenge. They were used for convoy duty but were of little use.

Dummy Warships caused a lot of bad morale during the second world war, sat on your doorstep they attracted needless bombing.

Michael.

These Doppleganger's are listed in Warship's of World War II (page 309) as

Mamari, Pakeha and Waimana all three were taken up from trade in September 1939 displacing between 8,000 and 9,000 tons. Pakeha doubled for Revenge and Waimana doubled for Resolution both were returned to their owner's in June and July 1941. Mamari doubled for the Aircraft Carrier Hermes and was sunk by U73 in 1941.

[photo below, the middle illustration is the ship's before conversion and below and above is after conversion.]

Michael.

So i guess Either one of those ships served as Hoods Decoy and was then altered or Ted Briggs might have been mistaken and one of the 'R' class decoys was passed off as Hood

Interesting note that all the Decoy ships have Maori or New Zealand associated names heh

hope ya find it Interesting, dunno if its worth merging this thread with the one above?

Cheers

Andy

[Powers]

Quite by chance, this evening I've unearthed a rather tatty and creased up photo of the old CENTURION whilst disguised as a KGV in Plymouth Sound during WWII. I've tried to tart it up to a presentable standard and now forward it as a follow-up to previous posts. Hope it comes out OK.

Regards......Paul

[jbryce1437]

Lovely photograph Powers, thanks for posting it. From the turbulence down aft, looks like Centurion still moved about under her own steam. I see she was eventually sunk as a breakwater at Arromanches in 1944.

[Dido]

Originally Posted by Batstiger

Taken from The London Illustrated News.

Dummy Battleships made of wood: Vessels that were used in the war as breakwaters and as cover for troops.
One of the naval curiosities brought into being by the war, when there was no limit to the devices imagined by human ingenuity, was the dummy Battleship. Moored in a harbour where a landing was planned, it would act as a breakwater and as cover for the disembarkation of troops and provisions. As a decoy to lure the enemy, wooden dummies could be used in the open sea.

Regards, Bob.

I believe that this is the liner ORUBA, disguised in 1914 as the battleship ORION. After fulfilling her role she was scuttled in 1915 as a breakwater.
I have some trouble on where she was scuttled. Some sources mention Mudros at Lemnos Island and some Kephalos at Imvros Island.
Can someone provide a solid answer?
Also would like to know the final fate of the hulk, was it scrapped on the spot or what?

[Chris Howat]

There is a book about HMS Centurion. In there, it describes the ship transitting the Red Sea in a storm so rough that one gun turret was washed overboard and floated away!