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  #26  
Old 09-10-2017, 16:31
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al1934 al1934 is online now
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

I have no arguments with that but it will always be my opinion that it was sheer lunacy to include women onboard warships.

I had the highest regard for the WRNS when I was serving, all of whom I found to be highly professional and absolutely dedicated.

My stated opinion will never change. It is my opinion and an opinion, as such is worthless but I stand by it.
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  #27  
Old 09-10-2017, 16:57
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by al1934 View Post
My stated opinion will never change. It is my opinion and an opinion, as such is worthless but I stand by it.
Well I thought by now you would have learnt to never say never.

But as for your own opinion, that IS certainly your right to have and to hold, at all costs if need be.
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  #28  
Old 09-10-2017, 18:15
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Steer View Post
Times have changed Alick and one must move with them or stand accused of being a dinosaur I'm afraid. Women at sea is a reality and I feel that their contribution is just as valid and valued as that of their male colleagues.
That is an own goal.

Women working alongside men on RN submarines (since 2011) will lead and has already led to 'inappropriate relationships'. Very simple to understand. You say "times have changed and one must move with them" - well, have you moved with the times in understanding and accepting that men and women working together on subs will lead to relationships and more. "Times have changed" indeed, LGBTQ are accepted into the Services.

As for dinosaurs, there are several of them here .... you and me included.
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  #29  
Old 10-10-2017, 00:22
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

These days women have the right to vote and wear trousers too. Some have even been Prime Minister. They have been allowed to go to sea on board RN warships and submarines since 1990, i.e. nearly 30 years. Yet there are still some who will lay all the blame on them (instead of men) for any occasional untoward relationship.

Funny how women at sea isn't seen as a problem by most male sailors who have experienced nothing else. It mainly seems to irritate those with little or no experience of it.

This is especially aimed at such dinosaurs:
Women. Know Your Limits!
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  #30  
Old 10-10-2017, 08:06
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Hoole View Post
These days women have the right to vote and wear trousers too. Some have even been Prime Minister. They have been allowed to go to sea on board RN warships and submarines since 1990, i.e. nearly 30 years. Yet there are still some who will lay all the blame on them (instead of men) for any occasional untoward relationship.

Funny how women at sea isn't seen as a problem by most male sailors who have experienced nothing else. It mainly seems to irritate those with little or no experience of it.
" ... instead of men ..." Rob, it takes two to tango, if the blame game is played both parties are guilty in equal measure. Recently two male submarine officers were fired, why is information on the consequences for the female sailors so hard to come by? Are the females still serving on HMS Vigilant? If yes, why? And what happened to the peeping tom that piped?

The second paragraph; Rob, our two submarine officers clearly had no problem with "women at sea" and rightly so. In post #6 you say "Ship-borne romances might be understandable ... " and above you say " ... occasional untoward relationship". So you are agreeing and confirming that the 'no touch rule' is breached, why can you not see the correlation between "women at sea" and the very obvious consequences that will follow. Again I say - two opposite sexes side by side at sea with long periods away from home will have consequences!

The 'no touch rule' is outdated. Already the RN is choking under ever more funding cuts, losing experienced personnel because of outdated rules is a nonsense the RN cannot afford.
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  #31  
Old 10-10-2017, 09:05
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

"Duty Dinosaur" here...........now I agree there are those of us who have and do voice disquiet about mixed sex crews, and about the situation in general expecting "no touch" rule never to be breached, and I also agree we never experienced such things............BUT...............

but we HAVE "enjoyed"? plenty of experience of life aboard a warship, thus anyone who has lived in the mess-decks are surely able to visualise the problems mixed sex crews would create. Is life aboard, say, a modern "Daring", THAT much different from what we experienced aboard, say, a Leander Frigate?

However, I am just an old dinosaur and don't know what I am talking about..... my 12 years in the RN is probably as figment of imagination too.......!
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  #32  
Old 10-10-2017, 09:18
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Marius please read my post #17.

As a contributor I welcome all opinions here but it seems to me that you may be trying to apply civilian thinking to a military situation.

Reading your profile would I be correct in assuming that you were not in the RN and consequently have not lived a life on a warship? If that is the case then you will probably not be aware that ship-board life is by necessity a disciplined one. In the past a breakdown of such has often caused a mutiny.

To deny women the right to serve at sea alongside their male colleagues is anachronistic. I am a huge advocate of equality. To remove females from warships would be a retrograde step one which would put the cause back by years.

One further point. You will see that I don't do name calling nor am I a willing participant in the "my ***** is bigger than yours" games. I am simply too old for all that! LOL
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  #33  
Old 10-10-2017, 10:58
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Jan, a spirited response which will be answered later today. Batten down the hatches.
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  #34  
Old 10-10-2017, 13:33
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

It wasn't only sex equality that saw women first going to sea in 1990. It was the RN's realisation that there weren't enough males of the required standard to fulfill recruiting targets when 50% of the population, including loads of females who did meet the required standard, was excluded from applying.
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  #35  
Old 10-10-2017, 16:09
Mitch Hinde Mitch Hinde is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Hi All

There were inappropriate relationships between serving sailors long before women went to sea and a lot of them were largely ignored as long as they didn't lead to problems. I can think of several at establishments and ships in which I served without racking this ancient grey matter too much. At the time I am thinking of such acts were actually illegal but I can't recall anyone being booted out or being charged. It probably happened but not in my experience.

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  #36  
Old 10-10-2017, 17:29
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Steer View Post
Marius please read my post #17.

As a contributor I welcome all opinions here but it seems to me that you may be trying to apply civilian thinking to a military situation.

Reading your profile would I be correct in assuming that you were not in the RN and consequently have not lived a life on a warship? If that is the case then you will probably not be aware that ship-board life is by necessity a disciplined one. In the past a breakdown of such has often caused a mutiny.

To deny women the right to serve at sea alongside their male colleagues is anachronistic. I am a huge advocate of equality. To remove females from warships would be a retrograde step one which would put the cause back by years.

One further point. You will see that I don't do name calling nor am I a willing participant in the "my ***** is bigger than yours" games. I am simply too old for all that! LOL
Jan, you have five paragraphs, for referencing I will use numbers 1-5.

1. Your post #17. In an ideal, exemplary and faultless RN, you would not have sexual relationships on board, but you have had, are having and will have.
- What is causing it?
- What are your solutions?
- How many more personnel do you want fired because of the indiscretions and vagaries of human nature?

2. What makes you think “military” thinking is superior to “civilian thinking”? Sometimes thinking out of the box, out of the narrow constraints of purely military thinking, can be a worthy and necessary paradigm shift. Even more so with the complex world of sexual relationships between two people.

3. Being non-naval and non-RN does not disqualify me from participation and airing my views on this Forum. It is a social forum which hosts a broad church of members. It is not a policy think-tank sanctioned by the RN with only naval personnel allowed to express views. This thread is about the ‘No touching rule’, it is not some discussion on engineering or technical expertise.
Military discipline I fully understand; tales of blood, sweat and tears I can bore you with endlessly.

4. Nowhere in my posts do I deny women the right to serve. However, I am willing to discuss and debate the causes and consequences of the ‘no touch rule’. Ignoring it puts you in denial.

5. I take it the “name calling” you mention refers to the word “dinosaurs”? You used the word first in your post #23, I simply expanded on it, the pot and kettle comes to mind.

Jan, I have fully and comprehensively answered you. Perhaps we can stay on-topic now, discuss and debate the topic and stay clear of who knows better and who must keep quiet. I will not subscribe to keeping quiet.

All said with respect.
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  #37  
Old 10-10-2017, 17:58
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Thank you for your vehement response. Some of my meanings you appear to have distorted to fit your views. Clearly you are on your hobby horse and are in full flow. As I cannot stop a raging bull I have no wish to try. This subject means far more to you than me so I shall simply leave you to it.
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  #38  
Old 11-10-2017, 09:25
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Back to the topic …

What we know:-
- Two senior RN officers have been removed from their posts on HMS Vigilant following allegations of inappropriate relationships with two female crew members on-board the vessel.
- The men are Commander Stuart Armstrong and the Executive Officer (name unknown).

The unknown:-
Have the two female crew members (names also unknown) involved in these alleged inappropriate relationships been removed from their posts too? Personally, I hope they have been removed, non-removal brings into question the impartiality of this investigation. I would assume the RN imposes its ‘Rules of Conduct’ in equal measure on both sexes, especially in this case where all four were involved in the same alleged transgression on the same vessel. Is this assumption correct?

Some ‘Googling’:-
“It is believed the woman has been taken off the sub, but there is no allegation she did anything wrong”. (The Sun 3 Oct)
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/459741...art-armstrong/
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  #39  
Old 11-10-2017, 10:53
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius_B View Post
Back to the topic …

What we know:-
- Two senior RN officers have been removed from their posts on HMS Vigilant following allegations of inappropriate relationships with two female crew members on-board the vessel.
- The men are Commander Stuart Armstrong and the Executive Officer (name unknown).

The unknown:-
Have the two female crew members (names also unknown) involved in these alleged inappropriate relationships been removed from their posts too? Personally, I hope they have been removed, non-removal brings into question the impartiality of this investigation. I would assume the RN imposes its ‘Rules of Conduct’ in equal measure on both sexes, especially in this case where all four were involved in the same alleged transgression on the same vessel. Is this assumption correct?

Some ‘Googling’:-
“It is believed the woman has been taken off the sub, but there is no allegation she did anything wrong”. (The Sun 3 Oct)
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/459741...art-armstrong/
Your pursuit of imagined 'Jezebels' does you no credit at all.

If you are unable to comprehend the duty of care, professional responsibility and acceptable conduct of 'senior officers' (which can include someone as junior as a Leading Seaman) towards their subordinates and the penalties involved if they abuse their higher position in the COC (Chain Of Command), then there is no further point in continuing this discussion. Like Jan, I will leave you to it.

I begin to wonder whether you have ever served in the military at all.
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  #40  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:03
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Hoole View Post
Your pursuit of imagined 'Jezebels' does you no credit at all.

If you are unable to comprehend the duty of care, professional responsibility and acceptable conduct of 'senior officers' (which can include someone as junior as a Leading Seaman) towards their subordinates and the penalties involved if they abuse their higher position in the COC (Chain Of Command), then there is no further point in continuing this discussion. Like Jan, I will leave you to it.

I begin to wonder whether you have ever served in the military at all.
And your contribution to the points I raised in post #38 is what?
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  #41  
Old 11-10-2017, 19:00
Dave Hutson Dave Hutson is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Having followed this thread with some interest I conclude that I agree entirely with Rob Hoole .

I spent several years of my 25 years Service as a Communicator working with what were then WRNS of all Branches at home and abroad. I found them to be very efficient an generally a pleasure to work with . Yes , there were many relationships , many among guys/gals working in the same offices , but I never encountered any wrongdoings on worktime . I can recall many marriages which developed from these relationships .

Had I still been in the Service when WRNS first manned ships I would have probably had a department with many of them and like all my peers at that time would have had misgivings about the living arrangements and facilities .

Putting the two sexes together in such a closed environment was always going to produce some friction and to put mildly hankypanky was inevitable.
There is probably more of it than we are aware of because in some cases petty jealouses flair up and then action has to be taken.

To many who criticise I would say . if you ain't been there , back off and wait for the facts and offerings from people who have. Many commenting , like myself , left the Service many many years ago and accept that times change.

Just my opinion ..... not looking for incoming so no hard hat.

Dave H
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  #42  
Old 11-10-2017, 20:16
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hutson View Post
Having followed this thread with some interest I conclude that I agree entirely with Rob Hoole .

I spent several years of my 25 years Service as a Communicator working with what were then WRNS of all Branches at home and abroad. I found them to be very efficient an generally a pleasure to work with . Yes , there were many relationships , many among guys/gals working in the same offices , but I never encountered any wrongdoings on worktime . I can recall many marriages which developed from these relationships .

Had I still been in the Service when WRNS first manned ships I would have probably had a department with many of them and like all my peers at that time would have had misgivings about the living arrangements and facilities .

Putting the two sexes together in such a closed environment was always going to produce some friction and to put mildly hankypanky was inevitable.
There is probably more of it than we are aware of because in some cases petty jealouses flair up and then action has to be taken.

To many who criticise I would say . if you ain't been there , back off and wait for the facts and offerings from people who have. Many commenting , like myself , left the Service many many years ago and accept that times change.

Just my opinion ..... not looking for incoming so no hard hat.

Dave H
An on-topic and reasoned response. Don’t worry Dave, there will be no incoming.

At least you acknowledge there is a problem with (military / uniformed) men and women working side by side in a “closed environment”. With that acknowledgement - you mention hanky-panky and petty jealousies - the discussion can now move forward again.

Let me also say this, I am a proud supporter of our Royal Navy. This latest incident on HMS Vigilant is an unwanted story for all of us. My interest in it is to identify the problem(s) that caused this incident, leading to the removal of two highly trained and experienced submarine officers. This is not something the RN can afford.

I will leave it there for now.

Just one more thing – if Rob Hoole and Jan Steer wish to return to this conversation, they must feel free to do so, all I ask is that we stay on-topic and stay away from innuendo, sniping and off-topic rambling. With respect.

Thank you Dave for your contribution.
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  #43  
Old 13-10-2017, 15:44
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
I find the dress paragraph concerning one person who wore 'frilled turquoise blouse, blue silk pierrot trousers, and black suede pixie boots' very scary indeed...
Indeed...
...and one is left wondering what the female involved was wearing.

In the RAF we had very little chance of being confined in close proximity with WRAF personnel, but male-female relationships in the working environment were not tolerated. "Courting" was confined to off-duty time. At one station we had a corporal radio fitter who was married to a WRAF Squadron Leader but although serving on the same station they didn't work in the same unit. I don't see how that could work on say a QE2 carrier for example.
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  #44  
Old 13-10-2017, 17:26
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

[quote=Forester;10170242]Indeed...
...and one is left wondering what the female involved was wearing.

No mention of a female in the article - it's about what this rating was wearing when he returned from shore. Sounds as though he was a sort of 'alternative'. There! Now the Thought Police will be after me...
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  #45  
Old 20-10-2017, 15:56
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Some more news has emerged regarding the trials and tribulations on HMS Vigilant. The second-in-command of the boat, also relieved of duty, has been named as Lieutenant Commander Michael Seal.

The name of one of the females involved has also been made public. The following link is to an article in The Sun and it contains quite revealing news of what allegedly occurred beneath the waves of the Atlantic.

- https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/468722...hms-vigilante/
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  #46  
Old 20-10-2017, 16:39
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Its a wonder that the Sun newspaper can spell its own name correctly.

alleged to have had a fling with Commander ........................ on the HMS Vigilante

Jim
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  #47  
Old 22-10-2017, 21:09
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Certain publications, do not let journalistic accuracy interfere with the scandal of a "juicy" story
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  #48  
Old 23-10-2017, 05:10
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurs View Post
Certain publications, do not let journalistic accuracy interfere with the scandal of a "juicy" story
Or as they say in 'the trade' "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!"

Something about 'journalistic licence' or some such.
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  #49  
Old 24-10-2017, 01:38
Spoz Spoz is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

As a matter of interest, most western navies now have women at sea, and all of the ones I am familiar with (RAN, RNZN, USN and Spanish Armada) have "no touching" policies very similar to the RNs, for the reasons that Rob Hoole so eloquently put some posts back.
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  #50  
Old 28-10-2017, 10:26
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

From one of my previous posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Hoole View Post
If you have ever served in a military organisation, then you would know that no favourable treatment of individuals (or even hint of it) can be permitted in the same unit, irrespective of rank or gender. It leads to jealousy and suspicion among those not indulged, impaired judgement of the persons involved and the potential breakdown of discipline.

That is why the display of such personal relationships, much less any physical manifestation of them, is taboo on board warships, including submarines. This applies especially to the Commanding Officer as his/her actions can easily be interpreted as an abuse of power or even bullying behaviour...
Now this:
HMS Vigilant: Nine sailors fired after failing drugs tests
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC News website
Nine sailors from a nuclear missile submarine have been dismissed from the Royal Navy after failing drug tests, the Ministry of Defence has said. The servicemen had been serving aboard HMS Vigilant, which carries the Trident nuclear deterrent. The Daily Mail reported that the drug they had taken was cocaine.

The Royal Navy said it did not tolerate drugs misuse, adding: "Those found to have fallen short of our high standards face being discharged from service."

Earlier this month, the submarine's captain was relieved of his command after an alleged "inappropriate relationship" with a member of his crew...
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