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  #101  
Old 18-07-2016, 15:21
Mitch Hinde Mitch Hinde is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Hi All

Thankyou to everyone who tried to answer my question simply so that an absolute novice as regards naval aviation could understand it, For those whose main reaction was to spontaneously cmbust and resort to name calling and personal insult my thanks anyway for bothering to read my posts.
I will now read and inwardly digest the information.

Mitch Hinde
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  #102  
Old 18-07-2016, 23:07
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Main Lift Fan Intake Door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelican View Post
..........what I called the flap but more correctly should be door or cover. When raised the a/c could well be moving forward at least at 120 kts so the 'hinges' or mechanism used must be exceptionally robust to say the least.........
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackBat242 View Post
The main lift fan intake door is rated for 0 to 120+ knots at "full open" (65° open), and 120 to 200+ knots at "transition setting" (35° open).

It has been repeatedly tested in-flight at those settings and speeds.
Thought I would add a couple of attachments of reasonable clarity to amplify David's original concerns about robustness - which of course was dispelled by the ratings provided by BB242. The images tend to suggest that the raising/lowering mechanism (unlike the hinges) have the appearance of being rather flimsy to have met those ratings. Just goes to show that appearance belies the high stanard of engineering excellence achieved in satisfying the required robustness.


Attachments
1st; derived from an image in ZONA MILITAR also staticflickr.com
Image; Title BF-1 flight #331, piloted by Mr. Peter Wilson, and BF-5 flight #90, piloted by SQLDR. Jim Schofield, performed STOVL op

2nd; derived from an image in Modern Weapons - titled 'Vertical Take-Off' - December 29, 2014 - Dmitry Shulgin
Caption associated with image reads:-
F-35B test aircraft BF-1 lands aboard the USS Wasp for the first time on Aug. 12, 2013. The landing marked the beginning of Developmental Test Phase Two for the F-35’s short takeoff/vertical landing variant


The published images in the links above (from which the attachments were derived) are from original photographs by Lockheed Martin


Little h
Attached Images
File Type: jpg F35B main lift fan intake door.jpg (195.6 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg F-35B-1 (2).jpg (234.2 KB, 13 views)
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Last edited by harry.gibbon : 18-07-2016 at 23:42.
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  #103  
Old 19-07-2016, 04:26
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Well, it is helped by the fan continuing to suck air downward, thus taking a lot of the load off the door - the air doesn't really push that hard against the door that way.
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  #104  
Old 19-07-2016, 10:51
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Many thanks Harry - attention to detail as ever. I wonder what that 'wheel' is just aft of the cover? Wheel spanners come to mind.

Yes BB I found the airflows are interesting in respect of how they developed the cover.
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  #105  
Old 20-07-2016, 21:48
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Excellent video of the F35B


http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...navy_160719.nl
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  #106  
Old 21-07-2016, 07:57
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

See page 7 of the pdf report, from someone who actually is an expert, and yes I know he works for LM before that is pointed out to me.
http://www.monch.com/mpg/dpm/CombatA...ecial_F-35.pdf

Last edited by gruntfuttock : 21-07-2016 at 10:16.
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  #107  
Old 23-07-2016, 07:56
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

A bit late to the debate, but may I add some comments on stealth (and I apologise that I am repeating some points that Rob and BB have made, but in the light of continuing confusion for some it is still worth making)

Stealth is not an absolute. No-one (at least no-one in any position of knowledge or authority) is saying that these aircraft or any other cannot be seen. In fact in some cases it is not about not being seen at all

What stealth gives you is two-fold.
1) Time. The range at which a radar will detect you will vary depending on that radar and many other things. But stealth can delay that and allow you to get closer (or make your escape on some scenarios). That is a huge advantage, especially if it gets you to a point that you can launch before they can detect you. And that may only you to be able to detect them before they detect you, so if your radars are as good as theirs (or better) then a bit of stealth makes a huge difference
2) preventing a fire control solution
Many military sensors are good enough for surveillance but not for targetting. So a satellite may detect you, but it is unlikely to give a fiee control solution. So even if they know you are there (or at least somewhere there) they can't launch so your performance and capability is still massively enhanced by the stealth. That is true or can be true (depending on scenario and weapon) of low frequency radars, passive means such as ESM and various others

Some other points
Detection if the acoustic signature (as proposed by Domino) of an aircraft flying mach 1.6 is essentially looking up the answer in a history book

A skilled radar operator seeing the "hole" left by a stealth aircraft (as proposed by Domino) exists only in the realms of fiction and overwrought imaginations. Radar sees reflections. And only reflections. So there can be no hole. Even apart from the fact that even stealthy aircraft reflect more than ambient air. There are potential technologies akin to passive sonar, but they are not radar and see also point 2 above
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  #108  
Old 23-07-2016, 11:19
Domino Domino is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Detection if the acoustic signature (as proposed by Domino) of an aircraft flying mach 1.6 is essentially looking up the answer in a history book
on the outset a reasonable statement Rupert, but you are only looking at this from a flat plane. Sound travels through 360 degrees. Therefore someone a distance away from the straight line travel of a mach 1.6 aircraft is not reading a history book as it can be heard therefore reported. More than one report indicates a line of travel.
As to an individual signature - are you suggesting that isn't possible? If so how come SOSUS (a 1960's product of imagination) was so successful?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
A skilled radar operator seeing the "hole" left by a stealth aircraft (as proposed by Domino) exists only in the realms of fiction and overwrought imaginations. Radar sees reflections. And only reflections. So there can be no hole. Even apart from the fact that even stealthy aircraft reflect more than ambient air. There are potential technologies akin to passive sonar, but they are not radar and see also point 2 above
Again you are thinking on a single plane. If pulses travel past and around a stealth object but are absorbed or deflected by the stealth object then there is "a hole" where pulses have not got to the other side.

So, thanks for the personal mention Rupert, and don't worry that my imagination may be overwrought by reading too much (science) fiction.
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  #109  
Old 26-07-2016, 21:45
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Even someone at a different angle to the aircarft will get the information late, plus sound is a terribly innacurate medium, especially in air. There is not a hope in hell of targetting an fast jet based on sound, let alone a supersonic one. Imagine a sensor one mile from the line of the F-35. By the time that detects the F35, the latter could be 1.5 miles from where the sensor thinks it was. Thats no better than a guess for targetting. And stealth is not so good that a radar would not detect it at mile range. Hence acoustic detection is of no use


And if an enemy is relying on a radar emitter and a receiver managing to position themselves exactly in line with an F-35 so that they see this "hole", then they have lost
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  #110  
Old 27-07-2016, 07:27
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

F35B asymmetric tests.

http://aviationweek.com/shownews/f-3...t-3-sea-trials
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  #111  
Old 29-07-2016, 07:59
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

https://vimeo.com/lmaeronautics/revi...061/3ed563576e
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  #112  
Old 31-07-2016, 04:08
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BlackBat242 BlackBat242 is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

In reference to several posts on the previous page, I'll just pass on this from one who has (as the saying goes) "seen the elephant"!

Note the part I have bolded - I suspect that the RN is in agreement with him.

Top Marine aviator: F-35B is ready for war

Quote:
Jeff Schogol, Marine Corps Times 5:37 p.m. EDT July 29, 2016

The F-35B is “ready to go right now” if it is needed to fly combat missions, the head of Marine Aviation told reporters Friday.

Although the F-35B is still being tested, the Marine Corps declared in July 2015 that it was ready to fly operations. The Marine version of the F-35 needs upgraded software and other improvements.

Nevertheless, there is no doubt that the F-35B is ready for combat, just as every other type of aircraft the Marine Corps has, said Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, deputy commandant for aviation.

“There were a lot of people out here that said, ‘Hey, the Marines are just going to declare IOC [initial operational capability] because it would be politically untenable not to do that,” Davis said at an event Friday at the American Enterprise Institute think tank in Washington, D.C. “IOC in the Marine Corps means we will deploy that airplane in combat.”

Talking to reporters after the event, Davis was asked if the F-35B could be deployed to fight the Islamic State group in Iraq and Syria.

“If we think we need to do that, we will,” Davis replied. “We’re ready to do that."

The Marine Corps’ first F-35B squadron is expected to arrive in Japan in January and then go to sea with the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit in the spring of 2018, he said. The service’s second F-35B squadron is expected to go to sea in the summer of 2018.

“Do we keep it on track or do we do something different: That’s up to the national command authorities,” Davis said. “But it’s ready to go right now.”

One of the F-35B's advantages is that it can carry 3,000 pounds more ordnance than F/A-18 Hornets.

“As Marines, there’s times when we want to carry a lot of bombs and go knock on doors,” he said.

In testing, the F-35B has proved to be “phenomenally successful,” showing that it can easily destroy the most advanced enemy aircraft defenses and fighters, Davis said. In fact, F-35B pilots made a demonstration of the aircraft’s capabilities last month more challenging than Davis had asked for because they did not feel it was difficult enough, he said.

“I watched how they went and did this with two airplanes with pylons and two without,” Davis said. “It was a work of art. That’s not the way my brain works but that is the way their brains are working.”

In little more than five minutes, the F-35Bs destroyed the targets and a surface-to-air-missile site using pictures from a forward air controller that were relayed to the aircraft through the cloud cover, he said.

Davis rebutted critics who claim the F-35B is “too much technology for the Marine Corps,” explaining the Marines’ mission is to be able to fight anywhere at any time against anybody.

To drive his point home, Davis recalled a conversation he had with retired Marine Lt. Gen. Frank Petersen Jr., the Marine Corps’ first African-American aviator and general officer. The two met before Petersen died in August.

“I said: Well, some people think we’re getting too much technology,” Davis said. “He goes: ‘I was shot down in Korea and I was shot down in Vietnam; never once did I think I had too much technology. Go tell them they’re idiots.’”
I'm just passing on the words of "my betters"... I'm not making personal judgments.

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  #113  
Old 31-07-2016, 10:51
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

I like that last quote. Thanks BB.

for what it is worth, I have had spoken to a few of the RN/RAF test pilots over there. Each occasion was unofficial and off the record. There was no reservation, no guile, just immediate outpouring of how amazing the aircraft is.

In particular the controlability and the sensors/data fusion were seen as massive changes that they had not expected
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  #114  
Old 31-07-2016, 17:42
Surfgun Surfgun is online now
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Video: ground firing of the gun pod.
https://gfycat.com/FlickeringWeeAyeaye
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  #115  
Old 02-08-2016, 09:35
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Restrictions on F35 Laser Designator :-

http://alert5.com/2016/08/02/f-35s-l...-strict-rules/
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  #116  
Old 02-08-2016, 10:59
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Exclamation Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
Restrictions on F35 Laser Designator :-

http://alert5.com/2016/08/02/f-35s-l...-strict-rules/
The 'Full story' on that link puts a different slant on things:

“If these restrictions stand, then training in the UK will be almost impossible,” an MoD civil servant wrote. The MoD's F-35 project team are said to be “in discussion” with the US to have the restrictions “reviewed”.
An RAF officer told El Reg that the restrictions are normal on new equipment in its trials phase and will probably be eased as the F-35 trials programme continues. Similar laser EOTS systems are fitted to the Typhoon and Tornado, aircraft with many years of RAF service between them.
Training areas where the EOTS could be safely used in spite of the restrictions include RAF Spadeadam in Cumbria, Otterburn Training Area, and existing designated air combat areas off the coasts of Scotland and Wales."


Maybe - Restrictions currently ?
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  #117  
Old 02-08-2016, 11:33
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Usual media rubbish and misinterpretation I think
I have no inside knowledge but logically:
1) Is DoD going to permanently ban the laser from being used outside US? Not unless F-35 is only for civil suppression, so No
2) So we can conclude it is a temporary ban for safety cases to be made (which is normal)
3) Who is responsible for gaining safety clearances in UK? Is it DoD? No, it is MAA.

So we are just in the normal situation where safety clearance for a new system is granted bit by bit to allow testing to provide evidence for next stage until full clearance is obtained.

Bear in mind that
a) the UK has a tighter safety regime than the US.
b) there is no need for testing or training in the UK yet
c) There are also Geneva convention protocols on lasers

For all those reasons we could not not give a laser pointer from your local hardware store to a serviceman without a full safety case

Now sometimes the rules can get ridiculous, it is true, but given what our troops have been put through in the past, having tight safety rules seems entirely right to me.
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  #118  
Old 02-08-2016, 13:46
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Wink Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Usual media rubbish and misinterpretation I think
I have no inside knowledge but logically:
1) Is DoD going to permanently ban the laser from being used outside US? Not unless F-35 is only for civil suppression, so No
2) So we can conclude it is a temporary ban for safety cases to be made (which is normal)
3) Who is responsible for gaining safety clearances in UK? Is it DoD? No, it is MAA.

So we are just in the normal situation where safety clearance for a new system is granted bit by bit to allow testing to provide evidence for next stage until full clearance is obtained.

Bear in mind that
a) the UK has a tighter safety regime than the US.
b) there is no need for testing or training in the UK yet
c) There are also Geneva convention protocols on lasers

For all those reasons we could not not give a laser pointer from your local hardware store to a serviceman without a full safety case

Now sometimes the rules can get ridiculous, it is true, but given what our troops have been put through in the past, having tight safety rules seems entirely right to me.
In which case I must try harder not to post "Usual media rubbish and misinterpretation "
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  #119  
Old 02-08-2016, 15:48
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Exclamation Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

3) Who is responsible for gaining safety clearances in UK? Is it DoD? No, it is MAA.
The Jossman? Seriously I don't recognise MAA in relation to F35B?

The main reason for Post 116 Rupert was:
An RAF officer told El Reg that the restrictions are normal on new equipment in its trials phase and will probably be eased as the F-35 trials programme continues. Similar laser EOTS systems are fitted to the Typhoon and Tornado, aircraft with many years of RAF service between them.
Training areas where the EOTS could be safely used in spite of the restrictions include RAF Spadeadam in Cumbria, Otterburn Training Area, and existing designated air combat areas off the coasts of Scotland and Wales."

Puzzled? Or
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Last edited by Pelican : 02-08-2016 at 15:50. Reason: Addition
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  #120  
Old 02-08-2016, 16:06
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelican View Post
3) Who is responsible for gaining safety clearances in UK? Is it DoD? No, it is MAA........ Seriously I don't recognise MAA in relation to F35B?

Military Aviation Authority
perhaps!!


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  #121  
Old 02-08-2016, 17:18
Domino Domino is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry.gibbon View Post
Military Aviation Authority perhaps!!


Little h
That URL doesn't work but you may find this does
https://www.gov.uk/government/organi...tion-authority
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  #122  
Old 02-08-2016, 17:24
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Exclamation Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry.gibbon View Post
Military Aviation Authority perhaps!!


Little h
Thanks Harry, was not aware of the Military Aviation Authority as I see that they are comparitive new boys on the block. We were ticked off, quite rightly by the 'old' Moderators, for this very reason [using abbreviations bearing in mind the limited knowledge of some members and overseas members] so I don't know how young Jim keeps up the way he does these days. I see the Civil Aviation Authority retain some authority over the Military Aviation Authority.
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  #123  
Old 02-08-2016, 17:52
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post
That URL doesn't work........
Damned strange that..... here it is again though:-


Military Aviation Authority


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  #124  
Old 02-08-2016, 19:30
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Apologies for the unfamiliar acronym, and I wasn't having a go at you gruntf, but the article which I think has some misleading elements.

Yes the MAA are the Military Aviation Authority. MAA were formed after the Nimrod crash to tighten up on military flying safety. Not only does every aircraft need a safety case, but so does every system put on that aircraft.

The basic principle as that previously people were marking their own homework, i.e. industry and MoD were both complicit in pushing forward a programme with neither providing an independent safety check. So now their is an unholy trinity of the supply chain (MoD DES* & Industry, an independent assessor (often Qinetiq for example) and then MAA to independently check everything.

I think it is fair to say they tightened everything up. A lot.

* DES = Defence Equipment & Support - essentially the procurement arm of DE&S




Pelican, yes this is perfectly normal, but with the complication that the original article seized on, that the initial clearance is for US only.
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  #125  
Old 02-08-2016, 20:19
Domino Domino is offline
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Default Re: Lockheed Martin F35B Lightning II

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry.gibbon View Post
Damned strange that..... here it is again though:-


Military Aviation Authority


Little h
thats better now, even in the original version
it appeared to be a copy/cut of a few words from the MARS forum referring to the late delivery
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