French Far East Fleet - WWII

[WGVSr]

The French Far East Fleet in WWII was a reasonably competent force built on the light cruiser La Motte-Piquet, a couple of colonial sloops and some smaller craft. While not up to confronting the Japanese, it was competent to protect French interests in IndoChina against other local powers. However, after obliterating the Siamese [Thai] fleet at Koh Chang, it seems the Fleet did little else but swing at anchor off Saigon. While the Fleet was controlled from Vichy, who was the local commander, what action did the Fleet see after late 1941 and what was the connection to the Japanese ?
Bill

[jainso31]

Bill I have searched high and low for information on the FFEF after 1941 but it seems it did not exist-I am sorry that I have come up empty.Below is an answer to a question about France sending ships to French Indochina.

"Why didn't the French government- before the Fall of France in 1940- send any battleships to French Indochina? Weren't there any indications about the growing threats of either neighbouring Thailand or an expansionist Japan that warranted a capital ship presence there?

Was it because most of the capital ships were dealing with current threats like the Graf Spee in 1939 "Phony War", followed by the Italian threat?

Alright if you count out the ships that were going to be damaged or lost at Mer-el-Kebir (Dunkerque, Provence, Bretagne, Strasbourg, etc.), those interned at Alexandria (Lorraine, etc.) by the British fleet, the Richilieu at Dakar, as well as the Jean Bart fitting out at Casablanca, wouldn't the French government have wanted to send either the Paris or Courbet to the Far East to help defend her colony? IIRC, both these ships were caught in England and taken over by the RN after the Fall of France, and later given to the Free French Navy.

Also, historically, the French Indochina fleet of the time did have the light cruiser Lamotte-Picquet, as well as a number of sloops and gunboats. Sources online seem to point to her being disarmed and used as an accomodation ship for much of WW2 until early 1945 when she was sunk by USN carrier aircraft attacking Japanese shipping there.

Now what would have happened if one or two of the old battleships had been in this fleet just before WW2? Would it have made the Japanese more cautious in the way they dealt with the French there? IIRC, during the Japanese "Vietnam Expedition" in which they sent a force to occupy part of Indochina, there was some fighting between colonial Vichy units and the Japanese. The Japanese forces were sent there originally to cut the supply line of Nationalist Chinese forces who saw French Indochina as one of their last conduits to the outside world.

Would it be safe to say that the presence of a larger capital ship would have made the 1941 Battle of Koh Chang between French and Thai forces probably a bigger victory? The coast defence ship Thomburi or any other Thai warship wouldn't stand a chance against the Courbet or Paris.

Furthermore, fast-forward to 1945 and you see Japanese forces seeking to occupy the rest of Indochina after France was liberated by the Allies- IIRC, the remaining French colonial forces there did not give up without a fight and some ships were destroyed or scuttled by their crews. Wouldn't the presence of capital ships have tipped the balance in their favour on the naval front?"

jainso31

[tim lewin]

if any of you read French?? my French uncle by marriage has written his military mrmoires whch has a lot of detail about the situation in Indochine duirng and immediately after WW2, happy to email you the text, i translated by Google which is rubbish, almost incomprehensible but what i can divine is fascinating full of stuff i didnt know before. And a lot on te politics
tim

[David Verghese]

Originally Posted by WGVSr

The French Far East Fleet in WWII was a reasonably competent force built on the light cruiser La Motte-Piquet, a couple of colonial sloops and some smaller craft. While not up to confronting the Japanese, it was competent to protect French interests in IndoChina against other local powers. However, after obliterating the Siamese [Thai] fleet at Koh Chang, it seems the Fleet did little else but swing at anchor off Saigon. While the Fleet was controlled from Vichy, who was the local commander, what action did the Fleet see after late 1941 and what was the connection to the Japanese ?
Bill

WGVSr

You have more or less summed up the Vichy French fleet’s history in this tiny theatre of naval operations in WW2, and I will add to your narrative as follows.
The commander you are seeking was probably V. Admiral J.Decoux who had control of the Vichy naval unit called Forces Navales d’Extreme –Orient. Decoux had a civilian appointment as well and yielded operational control to his senior naval officer, Captain Berenger. This squadron was built arount the light cruiser Lamotte-Piquet and four sloops – Amiral Charnier, Dumont d’Urville, Marne and Tahure. Only a French naval historian could tell you of the split of the (true) loyalties of the crews to the Vichy or Free French government in exile.
There was also the Marine Indochine - a motley collection of old gunboats being Balny, Francis Garnier, Doudat de Lagree and Argus which were mainly confined to the Mekong and tributaries.

After this historic victory over the small Thai navy, the Vichy sloops spent much of the next four years on coastal convoy duty in the Gulf of Siam. One must assume the Japanese tolerated this axis activity. The Lamotte –Piquet could not get fuel supplies (I am guessing that it wasn't in Japanese naval interests to help out) and when the Japanese turned on Indo-China in 1945, the other French ships were either sunk by Japanese land forces or were scuttled by their crews.

[patroclus]

In 1941 the French Navy in Indochina was commanded by Rear Admiral Jules Terraux and the Governor General was Admiral Decoux (who held that position until March, 1945). By late 1944 Rear Admiral Regis Berenger commanded what was left of French Naval forces in Indochina. He was formerly the captain of the light cruiser LAMOTTE-PICQUET. The only French ship of force in the area, the LAMOTTE-PICQUET, had been decommissioned in early 1942. The Japanese, although an occupying power in a large part of the country, had largely left the French forces alone until March, 1945 when they took over all French bases and shipping with substantial French casualties.

[WGVSr]

Thanks for the insight.

I do know that La Motte-Piquet was immobilized by engineering casualties [involving boiler tubes] and could only partially make them good from Japanese sources in 1942. She partially retubed her boilers but could only make 25 knots, still commendable for an old cruiser nearly 6 years in the Far East. As near as I can make out it was the lack of oil that forced her inactivity, as Dave points out. She was destroyed by aircraft from TF 38 in January, 1945. Post war, her successor [and sister] Duguay Trouin salved some useful parts from the wreck until she left IndoChina in the wake of the French defeat in 1954.

Of the major ships of the FFEF, Amiral Charner and Marne were scuttled during the Japanese takeover, Tahure was torpedoed by USS Flasher and Dumont d'Urville somehow survived the War. the fact that Tahure was 'out and about' seems to indicate some activity on the part of the FFEF.


Also to consider was the fact that Vichy, ostensibly an ally, or at least a benevolent neutral, ceased to exist in 1944, making the full takeover a necessity in Japanese eyes. The Free French would have been enemies.

What I'd really like to know would be how the French and the Japanese got along in the '41-'45 period. In all of the histories I've read, I haven't seen more than a line or two devoted to what was sure to have been an interesting dance between the French and Japanese.
Bill

Tim:
I still can 'parle' a little French. PM me about the memoirs.
Bill

[patroclus]

Originally Posted by WGVSr

Also to consider was the fact that Vichy, ostensibly an ally, or at least a benevolent neutral, ceased to exist in 1944, making the full takeover a necessity in Japanese eyes. The Free French would have been enemies.

What I'd really like to know would be how the French and the Japanese got along in the '41-'45 period. In all of the histories I've read, I haven't seen more than a line or two devoted to what was sure to have been an interesting dance between the French and Japanese.

Auphan & Mordal's "The French Navy in World War II" , NIP, 1959 gives an outline of the relationship and of the major events and agreements.

[H_K]

Originally Posted by tim lewin

if any of you read French?? my French uncle by marriage has written his military mrmoires whch has a lot of detail about the situation in Indochine duirng and immediately after WW2, happy to email you the text, i translated by Google which is rubbish, almost incomprehensible but what i can divine is fascinating full of stuff i didnt know before. And a lot on te politics
tim

Late reply, but I'm happy to help. Check your PM.

[designeraccd]

The Lamotte-Picquet in better days.........DFO