World Naval Ships Forums  
VIEW ALL OF OUR CURRENT SPECIAL OFFERS HERE!

Go Back   World Naval Ships Forums > Naval History > Other Naval Topics
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Other Naval Topics Other general naval or navy-related topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 17-02-2012, 06:57
spruso's Avatar
spruso spruso is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 694
Default Spanish Civil War

In the "Unidentified Ships" section of the Photo Galleries section of the Forum, there was some different opinions as to the order of how the neutrality stripes on the turrets of RN ships were painted. (See post #2251)

After examining the photos in my collection it appears that some ships had, from bow to stern, Red,White,Blue, while others had Blue,White,Red. Even given that there may be some distortion of the color shade when taken in B&W film, the colors seem pretty identifiable.

Does anyone know if there was an official order regarding this?

Cheers
Bruce
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 17-02-2012, 07:22
Dick Dick is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 445
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Bruce,

I assume that the photos in your collection are b&w? In some period b&w photos red appears darker than blue (see below).

The IWM has authentic/genuine colour film from that era of the Med Fleet. It forms the first chapter of their DVD "Royal Navy at War in Colour". There are shots of some BBs and DDs of the I class. Every RN ship shown has the order red forwardmost, then white, then blue aftmost.

This still from that film (see below) appeared on another website.

(The other order would have been inconceivable for a Brit!)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Rodney 1937a.jpg (144.3 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg HMS%20Warspite-1.JPG (26.2 KB, 77 views)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 17-02-2012, 18:28
astraltrader's Avatar
astraltrader astraltrader is offline
Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Exeter/Devon.
Posts: 13,254
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Warspite with Spanish Civil War Neutrality Stripes .
Attached Images
File Type: jpg HMS WARSPITE-30-1913-1947-SPANISH CIVIL WAR....jpg (1.14 MB, 80 views)
__________________
Best wishes,
Terry/Exeter. UK



HMS BADSWORTH [HUNT CLASS DESTROYER]
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 17-02-2012, 18:51
spruso's Avatar
spruso spruso is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 694
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

The shot from the DVD looks like it may have been colorized film. Here's another photo of Warspite. I'd still tend to go for blue at the front on this one. Then again I can see that the blue in the flag on your post appears lighter and I wondered if the flags at the time were using a lighter blue or it is the film.
Cheers
Attached Images
File Type: jpg HMS Warspite 2 entering Malta xx.jpg (251.7 KB, 54 views)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 17-02-2012, 19:02
RNfanDan RNfanDan is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Great Lakes Region, USA
Posts: 551
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Monochromatic images of the period varied, particularly in their depiction of colors. This was due to the differing chemicals and techniques used in preparing and developing the pictures. In many warship images, blue skies are almost completely washed out, for example.

Depending on the processes and equipment, red could appear darker than blue, or vice-versa. This discussion has arisen frequently in the past, when persons attempt to analyse photographs of various naval ship-camouflage schemes, trying to determine which colour was which.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 17-02-2012, 19:03
Dick Dick is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 445
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

I can assure you that that still has not been colourized and is exactly as in the film itself. If you have not seen the film can I suggest that you should buy it:
http://www.navybooks.com/ShowDetails.asp?id=1833

In the meantime it is photos like your one of Warspite entering harbour at Malta that cause the problem. How can that darkest band on B turret be anything but blue the brain seems to say.

Here is a similar photo of Ilex entering harbor at Malta. Note the dark tone of her flotilla bands on the aft funnel, and how the dark forwardmost band on her B turret seems to match that tone.

She was part of the 3rd flotilla. But their funnel bands were not blue they were red!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Ilex 1938 Malta b.jpg (189.0 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg 3rd ac.JPG (6.8 KB, 16 views)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 17-02-2012, 20:58
spruso's Avatar
spruso spruso is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 694
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick View Post
I can assure you that that still has not been colourized and is exactly as in the film itself. If you have not seen the film can I suggest that you should buy it:
http://www.navybooks.com/ShowDetails.asp?id=1833

In the meantime it is photos like your one of Warspite entering harbour at Malta that cause the problem. How can that darkest band on B turret be anything but blue the brain seems to say.

Here is a similar photo of Ilex entering harbor at Malta. Note the dark tone of her flotilla bands on the aft funnel, and how the dark forwardmost band on her B turret seems to match that tone.

She was part of the 3rd flotilla. But their funnel bands were not blue they were red!
Thanks Dick, A very good comparison that clears it up then. By the way what did the French use - red nearest the bridge?

Thanks
Bruce
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 17-02-2012, 21:08
spruso's Avatar
spruso spruso is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 694
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by spruso View Post
Thanks Dick, A very good comparison that clears it up then. By the way what did the French use - red nearest the bridge?

Thanks
Bruce
Answered my own question.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Marseillaise.jpg (95.2 KB, 58 views)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 13-07-2012, 22:26
Scatari Scatari is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,424
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Terry:

One of the best photos I have seen of the grand old lady (your post #3) ... do you know the date it was taken and the port she is entering?(Malta?)

Tim
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 14-07-2012, 17:02
WGVSr WGVSr is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 779
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Concerning the color conundrum, be aware that orthochrome film was also used in the 30s. This was a little different from the [much] more common panchromatic film in that it was only sensitive to blue & green light whereas pan film [which is more common in the 'modern' era as B+W film] is also sensitive to red. Ortho film would have the effect of making blue lighter and red almost black - the opposite of using a red filter on pan film.
Bill
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 14-07-2012, 18:21
johnny07 johnny07 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: With wife Ann in Banchory, Aberdeenshire.
Posts: 3,714
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Can I ask a stupid question?.
Everyone knew what a British battleship looked like and in the 30s everyone probably knew what ship it was.
Everyone knew that in the SCW Britain was neutral.
Why paint stripes on our ships.


Or is my thinking too simplistic?.:confused
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 14-07-2012, 20:25
Scatari Scatari is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,424
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Johnny:

No such thing as a stupid question ... yours is very valid

Suspect the main reason for these stripes was that the primary threat to the neutral ships was from the air ... and aircrews frequently had difficulty with ship recognition (guess I'll hear from the air community on that remark!)

One only has to look at the numbers of "friendly fire" incidents in WWI and moreso in WWII to realize that in the heat of battle aircrews made many mis-identifications of ships ... perhaps the most (in)famous being the Swordfish attack on HMS Sheffield which the aircrews mistook for Bismarck

Better to be safe than sorry in this case!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 14-07-2012, 20:56
johnny07 johnny07 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: With wife Ann in Banchory, Aberdeenshire.
Posts: 3,714
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatari View Post
Johnny:

No such thing as a stupid question ... yours is very valid

Suspect the main reason for these stripes was that the primary threat to the neutral ships was from the air ... and aircrews frequently had difficulty with ship recognition (guess I'll hear from the air community on that remark!)

One only has to look at the numbers of "friendly fire" incidents in WWI and moreso in WWII to realize that in the heat of battle aircrews made many mis-identifications of ships ... perhaps the most (in)famous being the Swordfish attack on HMS Sheffield which the aircrews mistook for Bismarck

Better to be safe than sorry in this case!

Thanks for that, This is something I have often thought about.

In the late 40s with all the navys problems in North China the destroyers would have the union flag painted on top of the turrets. The Chinese and everyone else knew who these ships were so why did they do that?.

The only ships that I can think of that should be painted as they were are hospital ships so as not to be mistaken for cargo ships.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 15-07-2012, 00:48
WGVSr WGVSr is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 779
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

And quite a few hospital ships got shot up/torpedoed in WWII in spite of being painted and lit so brightly as to be visible to a blind man at 500 yards. I don't know if it was the impetus for the neutrality stripes but one of the German 'neutrals' [maybe Deutschland] was bombed by the Republicans in May of 1937. Does anyone know when & on whom the stripes first appeared ?
Bill
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 15-07-2012, 06:53
Dick Dick is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 445
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Re #10, and by way of further illustration:

http://photo.net/learn/optics/edscott/pss00030.htm
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Old film types.jpg (50.1 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg spitfire.jpg (10.1 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Walrus KGV.jpg (105.1 KB, 13 views)

Last edited by Dick : 15-07-2012 at 07:18.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 15-07-2012, 07:41
patroclus's Avatar
patroclus patroclus is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,586
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

As to the order of colours in the neutrality stripes, see:



http://www.perthone.com/pdlinf.html
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 15-07-2012, 09:48
Dick Dick is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 445
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by patroclus View Post
As to the order of colours in the neutrality stripes, see:



http://www.perthone.com/pdlinf.html
...which completes the circle from Bruce's (= spruso's) original question that started this thread!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 15-07-2012, 11:02
RNfanDan RNfanDan is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Great Lakes Region, USA
Posts: 551
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick View Post
...which completes the circle from Bruce's (= spruso's) original question that started this thread!
Not necessarily....French and British warships' SNP stripes were opposed in their order. This was necessary in order to prevent misidentification between nationalities.

From bow to stern, British were R-W-BL; French were BL-W-R. German ships used BK instead of blue.

On a related note, can anyone confirm the use of stripes on Italian ships? I have seen no photographs or information on that fleet's use of identification stripes (other than the diagonal red and white stripes on their fo'c'sles during the war.

Did Italy take part in the Neutrality Patrols? If not, were they considered hostile and/or belligerents in Spain's troubles during the SCW (because of their occupation of Abyssinia)?

TIA,

Dan
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 15-07-2012, 11:25
patroclus's Avatar
patroclus patroclus is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,586
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNfanDan View Post
On a related note, can anyone confirm the use of stripes on Italian ships? I have seen no photographs or information on that fleet's use of identification stripes (other than the diagonal red and white stripes on their fo'c'sles during the war.

Did Italy take part in the Neutrality Patrols? If not, were they considered hostile and/or belligerents in Spain's troubles during the SCW (because of their occupation of Abyssinia)?

TIA,

Dan
The stripes appeared in mid-1936 and the control zones laid down by the Non-Intervention Committee in London divided Spanish coastal waters up between Britain, France, Italy and Germany. The Italians were to look after the area of the East Coast from the border with France south to a point just north of Valencia.

The Italians were, like the Germans, by no means neutral as, for example, the later piratical activities of their submarines demonstrated.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 15-07-2012, 15:32
johnny07 johnny07 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: With wife Ann in Banchory, Aberdeenshire.
Posts: 3,714
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick View Post
Bruce,

I assume that the photos in your collection are b&w? In some period b&w photos red appears darker than blue (see below).

The IWM has authentic/genuine colour film from that era of the Med Fleet. It forms the first chapter of their DVD "Royal Navy at War in Colour". There are shots of some BBs and DDs of the I class. Every RN ship shown has the order red forwardmost, then white, then blue aftmost.

This still from that film (see below) appeared on another website.

(The other order would have been inconceivable for a Brit!)

I have the complete set of these IWM DVDs If anyone wants this particular film of the Med Fleet and 3rd Destroyer Squadron I can get a copy burned for 2.50
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:29
HMS & HMAS Grandson HMS & HMAS Grandson is offline
Able Seaman
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 19
Default Re: Spanish Civil War

Hello everyone,

I'm wondering if anyone can shed some light on a family anecdote from my grandfathers Royal Navy Service. Once of his early memories is that of rescuing refugees from the Spanish Civil war. He was on the HMS Express at the time.

I thought I'd see if I could reignite the conversation on the Spanish Civil War.

I've learned that the Royal Navy was part of the Non Intervention patrols around the country but not really sure what that role entailed. My best guess is stopping weapons getting to the country????

Any information regarding the role of the Royal Navy (and other intervention partners) role, rescuing refugees for any particular event or any specific on the HMS express during this time would be greatly appreciated. OR any link to where I can read more.......

Many thanks,
Jeff
Reply With Quote
Reply



Ship Search by Name : Advanced Search
Random Timeline Entry : 22nd January 1934 : HMS, HMNZS Leander : Arrived Portland

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Italian Submarines in Spanish Civil War derek s.langsdon Italian Ships and Crews 11 11-01-2016 18:28
The British In The Spanish Civil War jainso31 1919 - 1939 4 15-03-2013 07:40
Sea Cadets and the Spanish Civil War Collind Other Naval Topics 9 15-08-2011 15:09
Sea Cadet During Spanish Civil War Collind Other Maritime Topics 0 20-07-2007 18:03


All times are GMT. The time now is 13:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.