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  #176  
Old 07-09-2017, 22:35
sparky42 sparky42 is online now
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
Interesting yes, but a couple of points I would like clarifying. It states that it has 16 VLS (Vertical Launch System) cells. Presumably for the RN they would be fitted with sea ceptor. If they are single cell, then that is far to low a number. If they can be quad packed then very acceptable.

Also it has a flight deck capable of accepting a Merlin, but a hangar only large enough for a Wildcat. Unless like the Venator 110 the hangar can be adapted to what the user wants, this is a big minus.

IMHO if you compare the Arrowhead technical graphic alongside the Venator 110 then Arrowhead comes out second choice. Venator has many more options and layouts to choose from.

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/609806...al%20Brief.pdf
Looking at their pdf up to NH90 only in the hangar it seems (though claiming the deck is capable of taking a V-22), as to the VLS don't think it really clears it up, but the video does make reference to "Strike" and "Tactical", could they mean the MK41 system?
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  #177  
Old 07-09-2017, 22:58
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparky42 View Post
Looking at their pdf up to NH90 only in the hangar it seems (though claiming the deck is capable of taking a V-22), as to the VLS don't think it really clears it up, but the video does make reference to "Strike" and "Tactical", could they mean the MK41 system?
Well exactly, these are the points that I said need to be clarified. Whereas the Venator pdf explains both i.e. the hangar can be made to accept merlin, and you have the option of Mk41 being fitted.
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  #178  
Old 08-09-2017, 08:26
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by navalis View Post
One of the most important things the 1st Sea Lord said in that speech was :-

Quote.And the Type 31e is not going to be a glorified patrol vessel or a cut price corvette. It’s going to be, as it needs to be, a credible frigate that reflects the time honoured standards and traditions of the Royal Navy.Unquote

My answer to that is, I would like to believe it.
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  #179  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:57
Johnw Johnw is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

And at a budget of £250m per vessel I to am sceptical. However the MOD must have looked at costings etc and has an idea of what can be delivered for that price and be happy with it. Presumably they think that for about double the cost of the latest OPV's they will be able to get a credible warship. They might get a hull capable of carrying the desired equipment but whether it is actually fitted is another matter.
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  #180  
Old 08-09-2017, 12:06
ASSAIL ASSAIL is online now
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by Johnw View Post
And at a budget of £250m per vessel I to am sceptical. However the MOD must have looked at costings etc and has an idea of what can be delivered for that price and be happy with it. Presumably they think that for about double the cost of the latest OPV's they will be able to get a credible warship. They might get a hull capable of carrying the desired equipment but whether it is actually fitted is another matter.
The OPVs are GBP150 each, at GBP250 there's going to be an awful lot of "fitted foot but not with"
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  #181  
Old 08-09-2017, 12:09
sparky42 sparky42 is online now
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by ASSAIL View Post
The OPVs are GBP150 each, at GBP250 there's going to be an awful lot of "fitted foot but not with"
Isn't the cost of the OPV's more a "Here BAe, have the money we have to give you, and give us something to justify it" rather than a strict Batch 2 costs X amount? If they use the same plan as the 26's and pull the Artisan/Sea Ceptor systems from the GP's as they retire that would help costs.
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  #182  
Old 08-09-2017, 13:18
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

MOD announces T31 procurement programme, nice infographic on the PDF :-

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-an...e-announcement
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  #183  
Old 08-09-2017, 13:35
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by sparky42 View Post
Isn't the cost of the OPV's more a "Here BAe, have the money we have to give you, and give us something to justify it" rather than a strict Batch 2 costs X amount? If they use the same plan as the 26's and pull the Artisan/Sea Ceptor systems from the GP's as they retire that would help costs.
Exactly, the price paid for the OPV's did not reflect the true price. It was money guaranteed to be paid to BAE under TOBA (Terms of Business Agreement) A sum of £348m was paid for the 3 OPV's. This money would have otherwise had to be given to BAE to tide them over until the T26 was ready to build, in exchnge for absolutely nothing.

So the RN got 3 OPV's which it didn't really want, and BAE got guaranteed work. Simples
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  #184  
Old 08-09-2017, 13:51
sparky42 sparky42 is online now
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
Exactly, the price paid for the OPV's did not reflect the true price. It was money guaranteed to be paid to BAE under TOBA (Terms of Business Agreement) A sum of £348m was paid for the 3 OPV's. This money would have otherwise had to be given to BAE to tide them over until the T26 was ready to build, in exchnge for absolutely nothing.

So the RN got 3 OPV's which it didn't really want, and BAE got guaranteed work. Simples
I wonder what a Batch 2 would cost without the TOBA being involved? I mean I know it has a flight deck and associated hardware, but I find it hard to see how it could be 3 times the P60 class.
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  #185  
Old 11-09-2017, 22:18
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Pelican Pelican is offline
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Exclamation Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

The information regarding plans for the Type 31 frigate comes to light in a speech by Admiral Sir Philip Jones, First Sea Lord and Chief of Naval Staff, delivered at DSEI 2017.

The following is an excerpt of the speech.
“Meanwhile, the Type 26 frigate is a genuine contender for both the Australian and New Zealand future frigate programmes and the Type 31e could meet the requirements of other smaller regional navies.
So how do we position ourselves to capitalise on this?
As a comparison, for the modest outlay of a few forward deployed patrol vessels, light frigates and maritime aircraft based in the region, France has considerable influence in Asia-Pacific.
The recent establishment of a British defence staff in Singapore is a sign that UK defence is starting to consider our options in this area in a similar light
The new UK joint logistics support base at Duqm in Oman could serve as a springboard for more frequent Royal Navy deployments across the Indian Ocean.
The deployment of the UK Carrier Strike Group to this region in the 2020s would be welcomed by many of our partners, and would be a powerful sign of our ambition.
And we still have berthing rights in Singapore. With a growing navy, it would be perfectly possible to base Type 31e frigates in South East Asia, just as we do with smaller ships in Bahrain and the Falklands today.
Of course, all these things are not yet policy. They are examples of what we could do, and our long term aspirations must be tempered against near-term challenges; such as our manpower recovery programme, which is working, but will take time and we must be patient.
But the fact remains: if we are serious about our nation’s global economic ambitions, then we will need a global navy to match, and the opportunities are there, should we wish to use them.”
Due to an expected lower cost, the government suggested it may allow an eventual increase in the total number of frigates in the Royal Navy. This general purpose frigate will be designated as the Type 31 frigate.
It is understood that the Type 26 Frigate will primarily support carrier task group operations while the Type 31 is to be deployed for a range of less high-tempo operations.
From - https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/firs...paig n=social

A revised speech might well suggest stationing at least one in the West Indies?
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  #186  
Old 11-09-2017, 22:48
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Some nice PR soundbites there, along with speculationa and wishfull thinking. I think these few words sum it all up.

Quote (Of course, all these things are not yet policy. They are examples of what we could do, and our long term aspirations must be tempered against near-term challenges Unquote.

Talking about basing abroad a ship that is at the moment, only a number of designs being put forward for consideration, is rather getting ahead of the game.

IMO there has to be a massive sea change in the MOD, to even get near the proposed delivery date of 2023 for the T31. Personaly I can't see it happening, though I would be happy to be proved wrong. I suppose there is a first time for everything, but I doubt whether this is it.
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  #187  
Old 12-09-2017, 07:34
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
Some nice PR soundbites there, along with speculationa and wishfull thinking.

Talking about basing abroad a ship that is at the moment, only a number of designs being put forward for consideration, is rather getting ahead of the game.
Not forgetting that it has already been mooted that these ships would take over roles such as the Fleet Ready Escort duty in the UK and Falkland Islands & West Indies guard ships which would be difficult to do on an ongoing basis if any of the ships are based east of Suez. I can't help thinking that in his imagination he sees a big fleet of these ships whereas in reality the amount planned for barely allows for coverage of a single role on a continual basis.
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  #188  
Old 12-09-2017, 07:43
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Further to my post #186.

Perhaps if the MOD did go for the offerings that BAE have proposed then a date of 2023 would be possible.

Both designs are upgrades of vessels they have built before, so the basics are already in place.
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  #189  
Old 12-09-2017, 07:52
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by hucks216 View Post
Not forgetting that it has already been mooted that these ships would take over roles such as the Fleet Ready Escort duty in the UK and Falkland Islands & West Indies guard ships which would be difficult to do on an ongoing basis if any of the ships are based east of Suez. I can't help thinking that in his imagination he sees a big fleet of these ships whereas in reality the amount planned for barely allows for coverage of a single role on a continual basis.
I quite agree, and all the talk of building up the RN fleet seems pie in the sky on present procurement plans.

Eight T26 planned production of one every two years, and only five T31's are only going to replace ships being decommissioned, and is just not good enough.

Then again this is the guy who said at a defence committee hearing not long ago, that he was 'comfortable' with a fleet of nineteen destroyers and frigates !!.
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  #190  
Old 12-09-2017, 08:17
ASSAIL ASSAIL is online now
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
I quite agree, and all the talk of building up the RN fleet seems pie in the sky on present procurement plans.

Eight T26 planned production of one every two years, and only five T31's are only going to replace ships being decommissioned, and is just not good enough.

Then again this is the guy who said at a defence committee hearing not long ago, that he was 'comfortable' with a fleet of nineteen destroyers and frigates !!.
I understood that Admiral Jones has already stated that these ships WILL be deployed to the WI and FI and anti piracy patrols so, with a fleet of 5 it would leave no room for working with deployed CVA TGs.
I agree with hucks
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  #191  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:43
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
I quite agree, and all the talk of building up the RN fleet seems pie in the sky on present procurement plans.
What will happen at some point I would guess is that they will eventually build 6 instead of 5 and then the soundbite/spin trotted out at every opportunity will be that they are the first government in X amount of decades to actually increase the number of major surface units in the fleet.
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  #192  
Old 12-09-2017, 22:42
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

More from Babcock on the Arrowhead. Some interesting comments on the costs, which sound a bit to good to be true, IMO that is.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/i...ad-120-design/
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  #193  
Old 12-09-2017, 23:17
ASSAIL ASSAIL is online now
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
More from Babcock on the Arrowhead. Some interesting comments on the costs, which sound a bit to good to be true, IMO that is.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/i...ad-120-design/
It does sound the best of the proposed options.
There are many here who have served on Leanders, T12s, Tribals et al who have a high regard for the ships on which they served so it's worth noting that the Arrowhead is a superior platform to all of those.
We therefor should all take a deep breath before the hand wringing over T31 goes too far. I for one have been critical of it as it seems to make more sense to build a dumbed down T26 however, as Plan B it's not a bad option.
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  #194  
Old 12-09-2017, 23:20
sparky42 sparky42 is online now
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
More from Babcock on the Arrowhead. Some interesting comments on the costs, which sound a bit to good to be true, IMO that is.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/i...ad-120-design/
It's a fair point, however from memory the Shaw is coming in pretty much in line with the other three P60's in terms of cost and given that she's an out of contract extra hull (with the other's being signed for back in '09 I think) either they did find ways to keep costs contained on the hull, or Babcock took a hit to keep Appledore open?
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  #195  
Old 13-09-2017, 08:44
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by ASSAIL View Post
It does sound the best of the proposed options.
There are many here who have served on Leanders, T12s, Tribals et al who have a high regard for the ships on which they served so it's worth noting that the Arrowhead is a superior platform to all of those.
We therefor should all take a deep breath before the hand wringing over T31 goes too far. I for one have been critical of it as it seems to make more sense to build a dumbed down T26 however, as Plan B it's not a bad option.
Yes I myself served on both the Leanders (Euryalus) and the Tribals (Eskimo) and yes they were fine ships for their day.

I fail to see though how you can compare ships from the 1960's with a design from 2017 and say it's a superior platform. Good grief after fifty odd years of progress it damn well should be.

It is already doing the rounds at DSEI (Defence and Security Equipment International) 2017, that the BAE offering for the T31 project has been completely downgraded, due to the fact that they can't meet the specs at the price the MOD have demanded i.e. £250m.

They have removed Sea Ceptor, downgraded the main gun to a 76mm, and removed the enclosed RHIB bay. So reverting more or less to an OPV. This is the reason for what you call 'hand wringing' and no wonder.
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  #196  
Old 13-09-2017, 11:19
Johnw Johnw is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

There is an article in the Financial Times today about the Type 31. BAE privately appear to accept they will not be awarded the prime contract for the vessels but will bid their combat systems as part of the contract. They are also quoted as saying the MOD risk creating more shipbuilding capacity than there is demand for over the long term. Given the costs of the kit it is hardly surprising that there is talk of fitting a 76mm gun. I recall the contract for three 127mm guns for the initial type 26 hulls was over £180m or £60m per gun. That would be almost a quarter of the £250m budget for a Type 31. Sadly I think we will be disappointed as to what can be delivered for £250m per hull.
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  #197  
Old 13-09-2017, 11:43
AVaites AVaites is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

why don't they use the 4.5 mod1 from all the retired batch3 42's and 22's that gives more than 6 units. And the type 31 is replacing some of the type 23's that is not counting the ones on the type 45 too so you have a big surplus, without the extra cost. Then the all singing all dancing type 26 plus if they up-gunned the type 45's. This would clearly save money.
The MOD is one for reusing equipment salvaged off older or scrapped ships point being i remember the lockers on Invincible being off the old Tiger and using Galley equipment on Lancaster was salvaged off a scrapped Leander.
Just food for thought pun not intended
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  #198  
Old 13-09-2017, 12:54
sparky42 sparky42 is online now
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by Johnw View Post
There is an article in the Financial Times today about the Type 31. BAE privately appear to accept they will not be awarded the prime contract for the vessels but will bid their combat systems as part of the contract. They are also quoted as saying the MOD risk creating more shipbuilding capacity than there is demand for over the long term. Given the costs of the kit it is hardly surprising that there is talk of fitting a 76mm gun. I recall the contract for three 127mm guns for the initial type 26 hulls was over £180m or £60m per gun. That would be almost a quarter of the £250m budget for a Type 31. Sadly I think we will be disappointed as to what can be delivered for £250m per hull.
I wonder how honest the BAE issue is, are they more concerned about the possibility of the 31 generating a competitor that might cause issues for them? I also wonder given their record has their bid been downgraded due to the lack of confidence in them actually staying within budget, something they have "issues" with?
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  #199  
Old 13-09-2017, 13:00
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by sparky42 View Post
I wonder how honest the BAE issue is, are they more concerned about the possibility of the 31 generating a competitor that might cause issues for them? I also wonder given their record has their bid been downgraded due to the lack of confidence in them actually staying within budget, something they have "issues" with?
The simple answer to both your questions is 'YES'
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  #200  
Old 13-09-2017, 13:07
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Keynote speech by the Defence secretary today.

Two things stand out for me, one is that he also makes a remark about 'making choices'. This echoes the First Sea Lords remarks about numbers of platforms v advanced technology.

The other is that the MOD appear quite adamant that £250m is the maximum price for the T31. This doesn't bode well in regards to it being a 'Frigate'. May I remind our readers what was said by the First Sea Lord, in regards to the T31 requirements in his speech in post #178 , in this thread.

Quote "And the Type 31e is not going to be a glorified patrol vessel or a cut price corvette. It’s going to be, as it needs to be, a credible frigate that reflects the time honoured standards and traditions of the Royal Navy." Unquote.

Do we now believe this to be the case?



https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...7-13-september

If you don't believe us in the MOD, as to how seriously we are investing in our armed forces, then just take a look at this lovely coloured graph. If this doesn't convince you that we are pulling out all the stops then nothing will !!! No its not all about Spin and PR, how very dare you.

http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads...mbers_2017.pdf

Last edited by gruntfuttock : 13-09-2017 at 13:30.
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