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  #151  
Old 05-09-2017, 22:15
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Seems strange that the author of this article doesn't even mention BAE's Cutlass or Avenger designs.

I also don't understand the statements being put out, that the RN will be without a surface to surface missile until the 2030's, when Harpoon is phased out in 2018/19. The reason being given is that the future Anglo/French replacement won't be ready until then.

My understanding is that by fitting the T26 with the Mk41 launchers, is gives us far more choice of missiles, including the upgraded Tomahawk with anti ship capability, LRASM (long range anti ship missile) and Kongsbergs NSM (naval strike missile). So what's the problem.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/i...-t31-prospect/
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  #152  
Old 05-09-2017, 22:46
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
Seems strange that the author of this article doesn't even mention BAE's Cutlass or Avenger designs.

I also don't understand the statements being put out, that the RN will be without a surface to surface missile until the 2030's, when Harpoon is phased out in 2018/19. The reason being given is that the future Anglo/French replacement won't be ready until then.

My understanding is that by fitting the T26 with the Mk41 launchers, is gives us far more choice of missiles, including the upgraded Tomahawk with anti ship capability, LRASM (long range anti ship missile) and Kongsbergs NSM (naval strike missile). So what's the problem.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/i...-t31-prospect/
In terms of an ASM, maybe it's due to the fact that the UK hasn't started any process to procure such a system and it's budget profile isn't exactly great at the moment (and with the SSBN's coming isn't going to get better short of a major political change). Also there would be the political challenge of justifying procurement I would think, when's the first 26 likely to enter service at this stage early 2020's, so could it be sold to buy a stock of your suggestions while the planned missile is still going to come within a decade?
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  #153  
Old 06-09-2017, 07:52
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

National Shipbuilding Strategy to be unveiled today by Fallon ?

I post on this thread as the article is mainly about the T31 project :-

http://www.defensenews.com/digital-s...1e-shipbuildin
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  #154  
Old 06-09-2017, 08:08
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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In terms of an ASM, maybe it's due to the fact that the UK hasn't started any process to procure such a system and it's budget profile isn't exactly great at the moment (and with the SSBN's coming isn't going to get better short of a major political change). Also there would be the political challenge of justifying procurement I would think, when's the first 26 likely to enter service at this stage early 2020's, so could it be sold to buy a stock of your suggestions while the planned missile is still going to come within a decade?
I am given to understand that as far as the T26 is concerned, the MOD have for some time now been looking at options in regards to the missiles to be used in the strike length silos (mk41)

Although the link dates from 2014, I have seen nothing since which contradicts what is stated re the missiles.

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/...ombat_Ship.pdf

GF
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  #155  
Old 06-09-2017, 12:13
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
I am given to understand that as far as the T26 is concerned, the MOD have for some time now been looking at options in regards to the missiles to be used in the strike length silos (mk41)

Although the link dates from 2014, I have seen nothing since which contradicts what is stated re the missiles.

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/...ombat_Ship.pdf

GF
However nothing has been ordered yet I thought? To me when the 26's In service Date is likely to be around the early 2020's it's going to be hard for the RN to sell the idea of ditching Harpoon in 2019, then order something to replace it for the 26's but still have the Anglo-French system planned for 2030.
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  #156  
Old 06-09-2017, 12:25
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National Shipbuilding Strategy to be unveiled today by Fallon ?

I post on this thread as the article is mainly about the T31 project :-

http://www.defensenews.com/digital-s...1e-shipbuildin
Appreciate Fallon will be making a statement later to day but he touched on several parts of this article on Radio 4 this morning:

UK defense chief to reveal Type 31e shipbuilding strategy

LONDON ― Initial details on how Britain plans to build the first batch of new Type 31e general purpose frigates for the Royal Navy will be unveiled as the centerpiece of a national shipbuilding strategy scheduled to be released by the government on Sept. 6.
Defence Secretary Michael Fallon will outline to Parliament on Wednesday a strategy that could see the frigate block built by several yards around Britain ahead of being assembled at a yet-to-be-determined facility.


At present, Royal Navy destroyers, frigates and offshore patrol vessels are built by BAE Systems at two yards in Glasgow, Scotland.



“This new approach will lead to more cutting-edge ships for the growing Royal Navy that will be designed to maximise exports and be attractive to navies around the world. Backed up by a commitment to spend billions [of pounds] on new ships, our plan will help boost jobs, skills, and growth in shipyards and the supply chain across the UK,” Fallon said in a statement.


The Ministry of Defence statement, provided ahead of the strategy unveiling, said that a batch of five general purpose frigates would be built at a cost capped at no more than £250 million (U.S. $324 million) each.


Industry executives , who asked not to be named, said MoD officials believe lower cost commercial yards around the country can undercut BAE on warships like light frigates.


In line with a long-standing policy in the U.K., the warships will be constructed in the country but could be “built in a way which could see them shared between yards and assembled at a central hub,” according to the statement.


The British already have experience assembling warships from blocks.
The Royal Navy’s two new 65,000-ton aircraft carriers were built in large blocks at six yards around the U.K. and floated around the coast to be assembled at the Babcock International yard at Rosyth, Scotland, by a BAE Systems-led industry and MoD alliance.


Cammell Laird is also using the block build process on the £150 million polar research ship being built for the U.K. at its Birkenhead, England, yard.


‘These should unlock our potential’


The strategy content drew a positive response from Sarah Kenny, the chief executive at BMT, Britain’s leading naval design house.


“I am delighted that the strategy sets out an agenda which challenges the U.K. to raise standards and drives us to become more competitive, whilst also creating an environment that better enables success,” Kenny said.


“There are positive socioeconomic benefits to be reaped from cultivating the U.K.’s excellence in naval design and engineering, to deliver on our own ship design and shipbuilding demands. Developed properly, these should unlock our potential giving us a competitive edge in export to other navies around the world,” she added.


The option to block-build the Type 31e could end BAE System’s monopoly on building frigates and other complex warships for the Royal Navy at its Scotstoun and Govan yards.


The company currently has five offshore patrol vessels and three Type 26 anti-submarine warfare frigates for the Royal Navy on its order book for the Scottish yards.


A further five of the Type 26 frigates are scheduled to be ordered from BAE sometime in the early 2020s in a build program expected to run until 2035.


The MoD originally planned to build 13 of the Type 26 frigates to replace the Type 23 fleet on a one-for-one basis, but cut the number to eight in the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review, replacing the axed ships with the lighter, cheaper and less capable Type 31e.


The SDSR said that by the 2030s the size of the Type 31 fleet could be increased beyond five warships, helping to rebuild a Royal Navy destroyer and frigate fleet that has shrunk to just 19 vessels.


BAE declined to comment on the shipbuilding strategy.


Aside from Babcock International ― which is building the last of four 90-meter-long offshore patrol vessels for the Irish Naval Service at its Appledore Shipbuilders facility in Devon, southwest England ― no one other than BAE has built a warship for a generation or more.


Unveiling of the national shipbuilding strategy follows recommendations to the government by industrialist John Parker last November regarding how Britain could revive its maritime industry. He said in a statement issued ahead of the parliamentary announcement that the recommendations would “change the shape of naval shipbuilding over the country in the future.”


“The next challenge is to come up with a world-leading design; one that can satisfy the needs of the Royal Navy and the export market. We have the capability to do that, the will is there and it is a tremendous opportunity for UK shipbuilding,” he said.


Release of the strategy is set to trigger the competition to select the light-frigate design.


Maritime industry bosses and other executives have been invited to a Sept. 7 meeting in central London to be briefed on the broad outline of the Type 31e program by Defence Procurement Minister Harriet Baldwin and other senior government officials.


Further details are likely to emerge at an industry-briefing day scheduled toward the end of this month.


The MoD says it wants the first Type 31e in service to replace the Type 23 HMS Argyll in 2023. Analysts in Britain reckon that could be an unrealistic timeline.


The competition to design and build the Type 31e is restricted to British companies, according to an MoD spokesman.


Babcock International, BAE Systems, BMT Defence Services and a small design consultancy known as Stellar Systems are among the companies likely to submit designs when the competition opens.


The MoD is calling the light frigate the Type 31e to emphasize the importance of the warship’s appeal in export markets to future shipbuilding capabilities in the U.K.



Foreign navies have already been canvassed about their capability needs, and some of these have been built into the Royal Navy’s requirements to make the warship attractive in an export market where it will face tough competition from the recently launched French intermediate frigate program and others.


BMT’s Kenny said the shipbuilding strategy’s “endorsement of the [Type 31e] goes some way to promoting indigenous design capability. It is great to see the U.K. government following European counterparts and opening doors for U.K. ship design and shipbuilding in overseas frigate programs. Greater volume of U.K.-designed vessels and the resulting increased collaboration between industry partners and the U.K. enterprise can only result in a more superior solution for any naval customer,” she said.


An MoD spokesman said that while the build in U.K. policy remains for complex warships, that wouldn’t extend to three large logistics-support ships scheduled to be acquired for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary.


That requirement will be opened to international shipbuilders in the same fashion as the four large oilers ordered for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary from the company Daewoo in South Korea.


Two of the ships have been delivered to the U.K., where they undergo fitting of sensitive equipment at A&P Falmouth, in southwest England, ahead of being handed over to the Royal Fleet Auxiliary.


From - http://www.defensenews.com/digital-s...ding-strategy/
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  #157  
Old 06-09-2017, 12:43
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Wasn't the same line of "engaging with foreign navies" used in the 26 blurb when it was going to be a major export success?
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  #158  
Old 06-09-2017, 13:16
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Michael Fallons statement on Parliament TV, cursor along to 1339 hrs for start of statement :-



http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/I...e-d0824c381f3f

Last edited by gruntfuttock : 06-09-2017 at 13:40.
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  #159  
Old 06-09-2017, 13:51
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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However nothing has been ordered yet I thought? To me when the 26's In service Date is likely to be around the early 2020's it's going to be hard for the RN to sell the idea of ditching Harpoon in 2019, then order something to replace it for the 26's but still have the Anglo-French system planned for 2030.
I think the operative words there are :- (Quote) the Anglo-French system planned for 2030.(Unquote)

I think the current wording is [planned for the 2030's], which as we all know is completely different. I would put money on a US missile being fitted to the T26 when the first one is commissioned.

I would not put money on an Anglo/French offering coming to fruition in 2030, if indeed it happens at all.
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  #160  
Old 06-09-2017, 15:04
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
I think the operative words there are :- (Quote) the Anglo-French system planned for 2030.(Unquote)

I think the current wording is [planned for the 2030's], which as we all know is completely different. I would put money on a US missile being fitted to the T26 when the first one is commissioned.

I would not put money on an Anglo/French offering coming to fruition in 2030, if indeed it happens at all.
Fair points, and I've seen a few articles related to such Anglo-European projects with the issue of Brexit. Guess we'll just wait and see (and guess how much money might end up going into a dead project).
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  #161  
Old 06-09-2017, 17:17
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Exclamation Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
Michael Fallons statement on Parliament TV, cursor along to 1339 hrs for start of statement :-



http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/I...e-d0824c381f3f
Thanks GF, following may be of interest:

Statement on National Shipbuilding Strategy



06 September 2017


Secretary of State for Defence, Michael Fallon, is to make a statement in the Commons today on the National Shipbuilding Strategy.

The statement is expected to start at 1.30pm following today's Urgent Question on free childcare entitlement.Transcripts of proceedings in the House of Commons Chamber are available in Hansard online three hours after they happen.
House of Commons Library Analysis

The House of Commons Library produces briefing papers to inform MPs and their staff of key issues. The papers contain factual information and a range of opinions on each subject, and aim to be politically impartial.From - http://www.parliament.uk/business/ne...ding-strategy/

P.S. A female Scottish MP certainly had a good drip [moan] later.
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Last edited by Pelican : 06-09-2017 at 17:19. Reason: P.S.
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  #162  
Old 06-09-2017, 18:11
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Shipbuilding Strategy for the Type 31 Frigate announced – a great day for the Royal Navy?

After much delay, the Defence Secretary today outlined the National Shipbuilding Strategy, specifically the intention to build at least five Type 31e frigates for the Royal Navy.

“This new approach will lead to more cutting-edge ships for the growing Royal Navy that will be designed to maximise exports and be attractive to navies around the world. Backed up by a commitment to spend billions on new ships, our plan will help boost jobs, skills and growth in shipyards and the supply chain across the UK. It’s a great day for the Royal Navy.”
(Michael Fallon)


Construction of the ships will be shared between shipyards around the UK with assembly at a “central hub” site. This is a potential boost to several smaller yards in the UK that are already seeing a modest revival in commercial shipbuilding. Block building the QEC aircraft carriers made sense because a single yard was unable to take on such a large project. Unfortunately sharing construction of a small frigate between several yards may actually add to costs and be less efficient. The Type 26 Frigates are being constructed by one company in 2 yards, close together in Glasgow. Already local media and politicians with interest in yards around the UK are speculating about their involvement. Cammel Laird (Birkenhead), Babcock (Appledore and Devonport), Ferguson (Port Glasgow), Harland & Wolff (Belfast), A&P (Tyne) are all looking for a possible share in this modest programme.
The block-built £150 million polar research ship, RRS David Attenborough, being built at Cammell Laird offers a little hope that yards are becoming more competitive. Apart from Backbock Appledore building OPVs for the Irish Navy, no one other than BAE Systems has constructed a warship in Britain for a generation. Building steel blocks for ships is not especially complicated, it is the integration of very complex and high-specification systems that separate the warship builder from the commercial builder. How much of this specialist expertise is available outside BAES is unclear.
It is not yet known where the main assembly site for these ships would be. Some suggest that the Babcock site in Rosyth would be well suited to this work when HMS Prince of Wales is completed. In Scotland, there is still anger amongst unions that they had been promised all 13 frigates, not just the 8 Type 26 Frigates. This is somewhat excessive as the Clyde has a fat order book of OPVs and frigates and a very secure future.
BAES have so far been ambivalent about involvement in Type 31 saying it could potentially be “a race to the bottom”. The project is effectively a challenge to their monopoly and they cannot be expected to be overjoyed. Babcock, with yards in Appledore, Devonport and Rosyth is the nearest thing BAES has to a competitor in the UK naval market. Type 31 may give Babcock an opening to become a long-term warship construction competitor to BAES, something which would be very good news for the taxpayer.
The intention has always been that Type 31e should be designed with the export market in mind. If Britain was able to break back into the frigate export market, from which it has been absent for almost 30 years, this would drive down units costs, benefiting the RN and the economy as a whole. To fulfill Sir John’s vision of economies of scale will require building far more than 5 ships, the project needs to attract foreign interest quickly.
A price cap of £250 million has been placed on each ship. Building to a target cost may produce mixed results but should focus minds. The RN needs to become a more ‘disciplined’ client and avoid mid-project changes, while industry needs to be more efficient. Considering a Type 26 is priced at more than £800M, then £250M is a very ambitious target. Other Europen nations who have produced frigates at comparable cost but this would represent a very aggressive reversal of UK warship cost trends. The timescale is also exceptionally demanding and calls for the first ship to be at sea by 2023. If the first steel needs to be cut by the end of 2018, then the design will have to be rapidly completed. Of the available concepts, this time pressure gives BAES’ Cutlass and the BMT’s Venator a slight advantage, being more mature than the Steller Systems’ Spartan or the, soon to be announced, Babcock Arrowhead.

“I am very impressed by the courage that the Secretary of State has shown – and the Government – in adopting my recommendations, which were very extensive, and will change the shape of naval shipbuilding over the country in the future. The next challenge is to come up with a world-leading design; one that can satisfy the needs of the Royal Navy and the export market.”
(Sir John Parker)


The NSS marks a significant change in procurement funding. As recommended by Sir John, the Type 31 and subsequent programmes will now have a set and assured capital budget at the start. Full funding will be allocated at the main investment decision point (known as “Main Gate”) subject to 5-yearly SDSR reviews. Navy Command itself will then be responsible for the successful management and delivery of the programmes.
In cash terms, the defence budget is slowly rising but there is still a £20Bn gap between commitments in the equipment programme and available funds. Tory politicians refuse to admit it, perhaps knowing it is their successor that will have to deal with the consequences, but there will be further cuts to UK defence somewhere soon. It will be interesting to see if having its own previously allocated capital budget will serve to protect the Type 31.
From the RN’s point of view, there is great hope that the Type 31 project can deliver. It is right that someone has finally said “enough is enough” to the ballooning cost of new warships. Diversifying the suppliers of warships has got to be a good thing and offers the opportunity to strengthen industry, manufacturing and skills base across the country. Whether a credible warship for the 2030s and 2040s can be delivered at this price, in this time frame remains to be seen.

Source - http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/ship...he-royal-navy/
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  #163  
Old 06-09-2017, 21:52
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

National Shipbuilding Strategy _ Fact Sheet :-

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._Factsheet.pdf
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  #164  
Old 06-09-2017, 22:35
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

So the MOD are looking at cost of £250m per unit for the T31. Bearing in mind that Babcock built the Samuel Becket class for Approx £65m, I wonder what they can pull out of the hat for nearly four times the price, with the Arrowhead design.
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  #165  
Old 06-09-2017, 22:45
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Great news for the RN but I can't help but feel that the export market for cheap and cheerful small frigates is already covered by a plethora of euro offerings.
I feel that the T31 will travel the same road as the Anzac frigates, ie designed as a light GP vessel for low end warfare and sovereignty tasks but subsequently the user keeps on demanding extra capability and adding weight and very quickly the hull is at the limits of its displacement and stability.
Considering that the cost of building a hull accounts for only 30% of the total cost a continuation of a bare bones T26, capable of future upgrades, seems a far more prudent option.
The lessons of the T14 have not been remembered.

Last edited by ASSAIL : 07-09-2017 at 02:29.
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  #166  
Old 06-09-2017, 23:16
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Some members may be interested in post 507 at - http://www.worldnavalships.com/forum...?t=721&page=21
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  #167  
Old 07-09-2017, 08:55
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Great news for the RN but I can't help but feel that the export market for cheap and cheerful small frigates is already covered by a plethora of euro offerings.
I feel that the T31 will travel the same road as the Anzac frigates, ie designed as a light GP vessel for low end warfare and sovereignty tasks but subsequently the user keeps on demanding extra capability and adding weight and very quickly the hull is at the limits of its displacement and stability.
Considering that the cost of building a hull accounts for only 30% of the total cost a continuation of a bare bones T26, capable of future upgrades, seems a far more prudent option.
The lessons of the T14 have not been remembered.
I completely agree with your first remark, in that the UK has, for far to many reasons to go into here, long ago missed the boat in the export market for this type of vessel.

I disagree in regards the growth issue of the T31. I honestly believe (perhaps naively) that the MOD may have at last learned it's lesson, in not demanding extra capbilities be added to the original design. In the case of the T26 this was one of the main reasons for such a lengthy design period, to ensure this did not happen.

If we look at some of the proposed designs on offer, they do look like quite capable ships in their class. One in particular I would discard out of hand, and I think the RN already has done so. Let's hope the MOD listens to what the RN requirements are, and not what the MOD thinks they are. Lets hope that designs other than BAE are given a fair crack of the whip.

T14 was a ship that was rushed into production solely in response to the USSR submarine threat. The idea of being able to upgrade it never came into its design. They were cramped in the extreme, and the living conditions shall we say left a lot to be desired. The modern matelot would recoil in horror at having to serve in one. Strangely though they seemed to be happy ships to serve in. I enjoyed my time on them.
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Old 07-09-2017, 10:53
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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T14 was a ship that was rushed into production solely in response to the USSR submarine threat. The idea of being able to upgrade it never came into its design. They were cramped in the extreme, and the living conditions shall we say left a lot to be desired. The modern matelot would recoil in horror at having to serve in one. Strangely though they seemed to be happy ships to serve in. I enjoyed my time on them.
All Blackwoods,apart from Exmouth, were decommissioned in the early 70s because they were too small to be upgraded with more modern weapon systems. They were also too lightly constructed to be effective during the Cod wars without quite drastic strengthening.

My point being that despite all good intent during planning and construction, strategic circumstances change and naval planners two decades after construction are always tempted to upgrade capability. This is particularly relevant to an escort which could, and almost certainly will, be thrust into a major TG scenario.

https://www.revolvy.com/topic/Blackw...tem_type=topic
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Old 07-09-2017, 12:51
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Without wishing to appear churlish, I thought I had addressed those points. Yes they did need strengthening, but they were very good sea keeping ships. As utility ships they lasted longer than they were supposed to, and I think any idea of upgrading them was wishfull thinking.
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  #170  
Old 07-09-2017, 15:46
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Specifications for Type 31 issued:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...pe-31e-frigate

and:


http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/roya...e-to-industry/
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  #171  
Old 07-09-2017, 18:37
navalis navalis is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

The latest contender - the BMT Arrowhead:
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File Type: pdf Arrowhead 120 DIGITAL.pdf (880.1 KB, 37 views)
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  #172  
Old 07-09-2017, 20:20
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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The latest contender - the BMT Arrowhead:
Interesting I have to say.
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Old 07-09-2017, 20:45
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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The latest contender - the BMT Arrowhead:
A very interesting concept.

The one thing which leapt out at me is the quoted speed of "24+knots" - most modern frigate designs seem to be capable of "29+knots," so this would seem a little on the slow side.

I suppose that the maximum speed required will be further refined as the exact role of these ships is determined.
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Old 07-09-2017, 21:39
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Scatari View Post
A very interesting concept.

The one thing which leapt out at me is the quoted speed of "24+knots" - most modern frigate designs seem to be capable of "29+knots," so this would seem a little on the slow side.

I suppose that the maximum speed required will be further refined as the exact role of these ships is determined.
You know the curious bit, the Arrowhead specs align closely with the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the Irish Naval Service (INS) replacement of Eithne planned back in '08 (the Enhanced Patrol Vessel - EPV), and that includes speed which is right about what the INS has gone for fleet wide?

Last edited by jbryce1437 : 07-09-2017 at 21:50. Reason: abbreviations explained
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Old 07-09-2017, 22:30
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Interesting yes, but a couple of points I would like clarifying. It states that it has 16 VLS (Vertical Launch System) cells. Presumably for the RN they would be fitted with sea ceptor. If they are single cell, then that is far to low a number. If they can be quad packed then very acceptable.

Also it has a flight deck capable of accepting a Merlin, but a hangar only large enough for a Wildcat. Unless like the Venator 110 the hangar can be adapted to what the user wants, this is a big minus.

IMHO if you compare the Arrowhead technical graphic alongside the Venator 110 then Arrowhead comes out second choice. Venator has many more options and layouts to choose from, and a larger weapons capacity.

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/609806...al%20Brief.pdf
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