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  #201  
Old 13-09-2017, 19:25
Johnw Johnw is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

I think that the comments from AVaites earlier could be correct - expect a lot of kit to be reused. The Danish Ivor Huitfeld class might give a clue. These are big modern hulls but full of old kit including 76mm guns and harpoon missiles etc. Currently even the CIWS system is a dummy. Looking at the diagram the MOD issued the other day for the Type 31 there is a big difference between the initial 'Core' systems and upgrades including gun size/ASW capability/missile fit etc.
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  #202  
Old 13-09-2017, 19:43
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnw View Post
I think that the comments from AVaites earlier could be correct - expect a lot of kit to be reused. The Danish Ivor Huitfeld class might give a clue. These are big modern hulls but full of old kit including 76mm guns and harpoon missiles etc. Currently even the CIWS system is a dummy. Looking at the diagram the MOD issued the other day for the Type 31 there is a big difference between the initial 'Core' systems and upgrades including gun size/ASW capability/missile fit etc.
Thought the Ivor's got their CWIS a while back?
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  #203  
Old 13-09-2017, 23:36
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post

It is already doing the rounds at DSEI (Defence and Security Equipment International) 2017, that the BAE offering for the T31 project has been completely downgraded, due to the fact that they can't meet the specs at the price the MOD have demanded i.e. 250m.

They have removed Sea Ceptor, downgraded the main gun to a 76mm, and removed the enclosed RHIB bay. So reverting more or less to an OPV. This is the reason for what you call 'hand wringing' and no wonder.
If the above comes to fruition the whole project is a WOFTAM. These ships will not be worthy as frigates for the RN. They may as well build them for Bangladesh and be done with it.

It's better to maintain credibility with small numbers of capable ships in the A-league than to beef up numbers with liabilities from nowhere.
The allocated funds are better off spent on one or two extra T26.
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  #204  
Old 14-09-2017, 00:02
Surfgun Surfgun is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

RN pitching the Type 31 to the USN.
https://news.usni.org/2017/09/13/dse...-export-market
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  #205  
Old 14-09-2017, 10:57
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by ASSAIL View Post
If the above comes to fruition the whole project is a WOFTAM. These ships will not be worthy as frigates for the RN. They may as well build them for Bangladesh and be done with it.

It's better to maintain credibility with small numbers of capable ships in the A-league than to beef up numbers with liabilities from nowhere.
The allocated funds are better off spent on one or two extra T26.
To be fair the RN isn't the only one looking at going this route, though I suppose it depends on how much is got for the price tag, compared to the Frigates of intermediate size - (FTI) or Pattugliatore Polivalente d'Altura (PPA) designs.
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  #206  
Old 14-09-2017, 17:51
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by sparky42 View Post
To be fair the RN isn't the only one looking at going this route, though I suppose it depends on how much is got for the price tag, compared to the FTI or PPA designs.
Sparky:

Can you help out this poor colonial ... what do the bolded acronyms in your post stand for?
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  #207  
Old 14-09-2017, 18:36
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatari View Post
Sparky:

Can you help out this poor colonial ... what do the bolded acronyms in your post stand for?
It's what they are calling them:
Frigates of intermediate size (english translation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%...rm%C3%A9diaire

And:
Offshore Multipurpose Patrol Ship (again translation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPA,_P...nti_d%27Altura

Both are going to be "Light Frigates" of various fit's that are going to be coming on stream around the 31's date. Think the Italians have already started their first one.
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  #208  
Old 14-09-2017, 18:43
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparky42 View Post
It's what they are calling them:
Frigates of intermediate size (english translation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%...rm%C3%A9diaire

And:
Offshore Multipurpose Patrol Ship (again translation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPA,_P...nti_d%27Altura

Both are going to be "Light Frigates" of various fit's that are going to be coming on stream around the 31's date. Think the Italians have already started their first one.
Thanks for the explanation
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  #209  
Old 14-09-2017, 18:55
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by Scatari View Post
Thanks for the explanation
No problem, but to me again highlights that for all the talk from the UK, they are going to be trying to get into a crowded field after a long absence imo.
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  #210  
Old 14-09-2017, 22:17
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

A few blunt words from the former First Sea Lord, Admiral George Zambellas.

'If they don't have the capacity to fight and survive, they are not worth building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=C0zB7Ux2CgI
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  #211  
Old 14-09-2017, 23:05
sparky42 sparky42 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
A few blunt words from the former First Sea Lord, Admiral George Zambellas.

'If they don't have the capacity to fight and survive, they are not worth building.
Maybe someone should have explained that to the USN with the LCS...

It's certainly going to be interesting this time next year to see what's firmed up.
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  #212  
Old 15-09-2017, 08:01
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

More in general from Admiral Zambellas, including some remarks on political decisions made by ministers on behalf of the RN, including funding.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt8jeJqzw4U
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  #213  
Old 18-09-2017, 07:53
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Interesting video by "XAV" from "Navyrecognition" conducting interviews at DSEI 2017. Posted on this thread as first part is of the three main contenders (we think) for the T31 project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=8_IW7TkptJQ

GF
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  #214  
Old 18-09-2017, 11:50
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Linked is a good short interview with Eric Grove, British defence analyst and naval specialist.
With regard to the "austere" Frigate, ie T31. He states that these type of ships made sense 20 years ago after the Cold War but now naval strategy is "back to the future" where fighting is more likely to be state on state and therefore all ships need to be highly competent.
He also stressed high build standards and high level damage control competence, something the Brits learned the hard way during the FI campaign.
He was disturbed by what he had just heard at DSEI where people "who should know better talked about doing away with naval construction standards.

I hope the professionals convince the politicians to take heed.

https://youtu.be/pT9wU-iB30w
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  #215  
Old 18-09-2017, 13:58
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSAIL View Post
Linked is a good short interview with Eric Grove, British defence analyst and naval specialist.
With regard to the "austere" Frigate, ie T31. He states that these type of ships made sense 20 years ago after the Cold War but now naval strategy is "back to the future" where fighting is more likely to be state on state and therefore all ships need to be highly competent.
He also stressed high build standards and high level damage control competence, something the Brits learned the hard way during the FI campaign.
He was disturbed by what he had just heard at DSEI where people "who should know better talked about doing away with naval construction standards.

I hope the professionals convince the politicians to take heed.

https://youtu.be/pT9wU-iB30w


I was frankly surprised by the guy from Babcock who was 'promoting' Arrowhead. IMHO he didn't seem to do the design any favours by stating that, "it is not a front line combatant" however true that might be. It seems to fly in the face of what the First Sea Lord was demanding of these vessels.

Even the Stellar Systems guy stressed warfighting capability with the 'Spartan' design.

I still think 'Venator' with its many options came out best of the lot, from the short piece we heard from the interviews.

I was also surprised by the remark in regard to "state on state" wars. As it is generaly accepted that we would fight any future conflicts as part of a coalition of forces, each bringing its particular assets/expertise to make up the whole.

In truth it is only the USA, of all the western powers that has the capability to take on a peer to peer enemy single handedly. Something I don't think even they would want to do, without the back up and support of friendly forces.

GF

Last edited by gruntfuttock : 18-09-2017 at 14:15.
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  #216  
Old 19-09-2017, 07:49
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

This from another forum, the RFI for the T31E I'd now out and makes some interesting reading. Re my previous comments on Lloyds Naval Rules it seems variations are allowed in certain areas, also the term FTR - Fitted to Receive seems prominent and I guess this replaces the old FFBNW - fitted for but not with. It does give the timescale and asks for all ships to be completed by 2023 so it seems that equipment fro T23 won't be available.
For those who like a 57mm gun, this is the ship for you.
It certainly seems that it will be austere which is fine when there are adequate first class escorts but...... . .

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...9/T31e_RFI.pdf
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  #217  
Old 19-09-2017, 08:31
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSAIL View Post
This from another forum, the RFI for the T31E I'd now out and makes some interesting reading. Re my previous comments on Lloyds Naval Rules it seems variations are allowed in certain areas, also the term FTR - Fitted to Receive seems prominent and I guess this replaces the old FFBNW - fitted for but not with. It does give the timescale and asks for all ships to be completed by 2023 so it seems that equipment fro T23 won't be available.
For those who like a 57mm gun, this is the ship for you.
It certainly seems that it will be austere which is fine when there are adequate first class escorts but...... . .

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...9/T31e_RFI.pdf
Remember that these are 'threshold requirements' i.e. the basic levels needed. As is shown in the graphic produced by the RN their preference is for a 76mm main gun. Once again it will be down to the beancounters, and not what the end users want and need.


http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/wp-c...diagram-V4.pdf
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  #218  
Old 19-09-2017, 17:58
G. Shoda G. Shoda is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

My guess is that future surface engagements will be decided by exchange of cruise missiles before gun range is achieved. The 57 mm gun is a better weapon for the types of scenarios that might be imagined should a gun be deployable (actions against small targets).
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  #219  
Old 19-09-2017, 18:16
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hucks216 hucks216 is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

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Originally Posted by G. Shoda View Post
My guess is that future surface engagements will be decided by exchange of cruise missiles before gun range is achieved. The 57 mm gun is a better weapon for the types of scenarios that might be imagined should a gun be deployable (actions against small targets).
But for shore bombardment, which is where the main gun sees most of its action, I'd rather see a bigger gun especially if it is being used to take out armour or bunkers.
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  #220  
Old 19-09-2017, 20:19
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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Default Re: RN Frigates: Type 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Shoda View Post
My guess is that future surface engagements will be decided by exchange of cruise missiles before gun range is achieved. The 57 mm gun is a better weapon for the types of scenarios that might be imagined should a gun be deployable (actions against small targets).
Unfortunately Anti Ship Missiles will not be fitted.
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