V & Cr class destroyers

[BlackBat242]

I find I am in need of information about these destroyers.

Specifically, their histories post-WW2, and the reason for converting one of each class into a Type-15 ASW frigate.

It would seem that it would have been better to have converted both of one class instead.


I have found some info, but it is sparse... especially for 1946-50 for both Crescent and Crusader.


Here is what I have now, any information beyond this would be greatly appreciated.

{photos would be nice as well }

Algonquin was recalled on VJ-Day and left Alexandria, Egypt for Esquimalt Naval Base (Victoria, BC) on November 3. Once there she paid off into reserve on February 6, 1946. She remained in reserve until she was converted to a Type 15 ASW frigate in Esquimalt dockyard, before recommissioning 25 February 1953.
HMCS Algonquin

Sioux was paid off into reserve at Esquimalt on 27 Feb. 1947. After some modernization she was recommissioned in early 1950, and did three tours of duty in Korean waters, from 1950 to 1955. Afterward she resumed her training role until paid off at Halifax on October 30, 1963.
HMCS Sioux

Crescent was kept in commission after WW2, and based in Esquimalt. In March 1949, on a cruise to China, while in port in Nanjing, the lower decks staged what her Captain was careful to NOT call a "mutiny". Two other ships of the RCN (Magnificent & Athabaskan) experienced similar events at the same time.
It appears that she began her conversion to a Type 15 in Esquimalt dockyard not long after her return from China. She remained assigned to Esquimalt until 1957, when she was transferred to Halifax, Nova Scotia.
Data from Wiki and scattered sources.

Crusader was also based in Esquimalt, and apparently kept in commission. She served in Korea as well. Afterwards Crusader was attached to the Naval Research Establishment (Dartmouth) c.1957/58 for VDS trials.
Data from scattered sources

[Brian Wentzell]

Blackbat:

There is a lot of information available on these four ships. Algonquin and Crescent were converted, not identically, to a then modern ASW frigate design inspired by the UK Type 15 ships. Sioux was modernized by removal of her X and Y 4.7" mounts which were replaced by two Squid ASW mortars, somewhat similar to UK Type 16 frigates, themselves being destroyer conversions. Crusader after being crowned the top "Train Buster" in the Korean War served as a trials ship for the then highly secret towed variable depth sonar system. She received no modernization and was decommissioned in 1960 and scrapped in 1963. The VDS was transferred to Crescent for operational trials.

The basic technical summaries for the ships can be found in Jane's Fighting Ships 1963-64 and earlier. There are several other references which I will dig out.

Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

Blackbat: By sheer luck, I saw a post in the Photo Galleries tonight under the Frigate Conversions Type 15 thread. There is a good picture of Algonquin there along with bow shots of Algonquin and Crescent alongside. I have put a post on the thread pointing out some of the differences in the "sisters".
Brian

[BlackBat242]

Yes, I saw those.

The earliest post-WW2 Jane's I have access to is the 1964-65 edition, unfortunately.

Anything you can get me would really help.

Thanks for the info so far.

[Brian Wentzell]

Jon: Many of the references I have are out of print; however, there the following will give you a good sense of the history of the "V" and "Cr" classes in the RCN:

"Canada's Navy The First Century" by Marc Milner, Toronto, University of Toronto Press, 1999, ISBN 0-8020-4281-3. There is a second edition of this book with an additional chapter and it is likely the second edition that is currently available.

"The Naval Service of Canada 1910-1920 The Centennial Story" edtited by Richard H. Gimblett, Toronto, Dundurn Press, 2009, ISBN 978-1-55488-470-4. This volume and the Milner book should be readily available through Amazon or Chapters-Indigo.

"Canadian Naval Operations in Korean Waters 1950-1955" by Thor Thorgrimsson and E.C. Russell, Ottawa, Queen's Printer, 1965. This book details the exploits of HMC Ships Sioux and Crusader, and the Tribal Class, during that conflict. You might find a copy in a used book store in Vancover or Victoria, BC.

As I noted in my second post to the Photo Gallery: Frigate Conversions Type 15, the two full conversions and Sioux represented transitional ships in the transformation of the RCN from a general purpose navy to a specialised ASW fleet designed to counter the submarine threat of the Soviet Navy in the North Atlantic.

Good luck with your project and please let me know how it develops.

Brian

[BlackBat242]

Thank you.

[Lee Day]

I served on CRUSADER Aug'57 to Oct'59. Captain was an ex fly-boy by the name of F. W. Bradley. Good Captain and a great ship.
Searched for a German sailing ship called PAMIR that sank off of the Canary Islands I believe. PAMIR was a Barque that was used to train midshipman in the German Navy. Regrettably no survivors. Crew was around 85 members. Search was conducted in conjunction with a USCGS ANTIETAM.
We went to Portsmouth for a 3 month refit to rig our VDS gear for exercises in Gibraltar with HM SUBMARINE TALLY HO. On the way was re-directed by Admiralty to proceed to the Irish Sea where a KLM Airliner "Hubert de Groot" had crashed. Over 95 people perished. Picked up remnants of the aircraft and a couple of bodies that we landed in Galloway Bay.
I have picture of CRUSADER but I'm not sure of how to get it to you. I know if you go to the RCN website that there is a listing of all Canadian navy ships and CRUSADER is posted.

Up spirits, stand fast.
Lee Day,
LSAW
RCN

[Matelot]

You might be able to find something useful on this site.

http://jproc.ca/r17/index.html

I got to sail on both Crescent and Algonquin, though briefly. Was drafted to Crescent to take her to the West Coast in 67. Spent about a month on board getting her ready, day trips out of harbour etc. For some reason just before sailing, can't remember why, I was drafted "next door" to Algonquin. So set sail on her along with Crescent and Columbia for Esquimalt. Great Trip.

[Blackfly]

I'm sure posting the pic of CRUSADER here would be appreciated. I know that I know very little about our Navy from WW2 to the time the Restigouche and St Laurants came along.

[BlackBat242]

Originally Posted by Lee Day

I have picture of CRUSADER but I'm not sure of how to get it to you.

If you can scan it into your computer you can upload it here.

Originally Posted by Lee Day

I know if you go to the RCN website that there is a listing of all Canadian navy ships and CRUSADER is posted.

Up spirits, stand fast.
Lee Day,
LSAW
RCN

Which website is that? I can't seem to find any such list on the official RCN site, and I have no idea what other website you might be referring to.

[Brian Wentzell]

Jon: There are several things you can look at on the web. All of the RCN's Crowsnest magazines from 1948-1968 are on the RCN historical site. There are several stories and pictures of all four ships in these magazines.

In addition to the very good Jerry Proc site that another post made known to you there was a list of all RCN ships put together as part of the RCN centennial celebrations. You can get to that site through the Department of National Defence website http://www.forces.gc.ca -click on Navy on the menu bar on the left side of the page. You can drill down from there for history.

I have googled HMCS Crusader and a number of pictures turn up showing the VDS installation. There is little written about Crusader after the Korean War.

Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

Jon: Another site is Ready Aye Ready.com but that is the basic facts about Crusader and the standard starboard side picture of her as the VDS trials ship. There is similar info there for the other three ships as well.
Brian

[BlackBat242]

Originally Posted by Brian Wentzell

there was a list of all RCN ships put together as part of the RCN centennial celebrations. You can get to that site through the Department of National Defence website http://www.forces.gc.ca -click on Navy on the menu bar on the left side of the page. You can drill down from there for history.

I have googled HMCS Crusader and a number of pictures turn up showing the VDS installation. There is little written about Crusader after the Korean War.

Brian

Doing that just takes me to the official RCN site I mentioned earlier... and I still can't find any such list or photo gallery... despite following each section down several levels.

Either the list is really buried deep many layers down or the website is different for non-Canadian access.

Using the search function with a ship's name gets lots of links (many unrelated)... but all of them just give me a "405 error" when I try to access them.

[Andy Waugh]

An article which might be of interest.

[Brian Wentzell]

Jon: At the http://www.forces.gc.ca website, click on "Navy" and when that page opens click on "Links". Under "Links" click on "Canadian Navy Centennial". You then have access to a number of items, the most useful of which is probably the "Education" button which provides an extensive bibliography; however, the books with reference to Korea are likely the more useful.

When I use google search for "HMCS Crusader" the images for the ship are of interest. The pictures by D.R. Gorham will be of interest but he does not provide much context. He was obviously a crew member in the late 1950s.

One of my "incomplete", read "not started", projects has been to do a ship's history on HMCS Crusader. This would require a long visit to Ottawa and the Department of Heritage and History at the Department of National Defence.

Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

Gentlemen: The Michael Whitby article provides a good background to the participation of the RCN in Korea and, after the end of the Cold War, it remains a model for the conduct of operations in waters distant from Canada by general purpose combat ships.

One note on the images in the article. The first image cannot have been from 1948. The light grey paint on the hulls did not come until the mid 1950's. The image shows the two Tribals in the final configuration with the SPS 6 radar and large lattice mast.

Brian

[BlackBat242]

Brian... thanks for the article, and for the attempts at help, but I simply cannot extract any information on any individual ship from the RCN site, no matter how deep I go, or how many links I chase down.


Doing Google image search for "HMCS Crusader" turns up lots of images... by many different people, websites, and so on.

Googling his name and the ship name brings me to his Flikr site... all 2,087 images, which you have to scroll through one at a time to find what you are looking for.

I just don't have the time, so I saved the url for some time when I have nothing else to do.

Thanks again for the help, I appreciate it.

[Scatari]

Jon:

Have just sent you a PM on this topic.

Cheers!

[BlackBat242]

I want to publicly thank Scatari for the copy of "Canadian Naval Operations in Korean Waters 1950-1955".

It arrived today, and I look forward to reading it.

[Scatari]

Originally Posted by BlackBat242

I want to publicly thank Scatari for the copy of "Canadian Naval Operations in Korean Waters 1950-1955".

It arrived today, and I look forward to reading it.

You're more than welcome Jon - glad to see that it made it there.

Hope you enjoy it.

[Scatari]

Originally Posted by BlackBat242

I want to publicly thank Scatari for the copy of "Canadian Naval Operations in Korean Waters 1950-1955".

It arrived today, and I look forward to reading it.

Jon:

Have just sent you a PM on the Canadian "V" and "CR" classes.

[BlackBat242]

And I have received & answered it.