World Naval Ships Forums  
CURRENT SPECIAL OFFERS ON OUR HUGE SELECTION OF ART PRINTS!

Go Back   World Naval Ships Forums > Everything Else > Everything Else
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Everything Else Serious non naval and non maritime subjects - 'Shore Leave' is for chat.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 07-03-2012, 09:30
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,515
Default Re: The Formation of the Fleet Air Arm

POSTSCRIPT and back to where all this began

The lack of ASW development during the 1920s and 1930s was not entirely the fault of the Air Ministry. The struggle between the Admiralty and Air Ministry continued into the 1930s and it was the Admiralty that lost sight of why it was pursuing its own air service for the Navy. It became more a matter of getting revenge over the RAF for its success in defeating earlier attempts to break up the Air Force. It succeeded in forcing the return of the Fleet Air Arm (FAA) from the RAF in 1937, but made no effort to develop ASW formations. Instead it continued to believe in the supremacy of the capital ship and the FAA was meant to be suitable for fleet actions only. It was a mistake most of the major powers, in particular the Imperial Japanese Navy, made during the lead up to the Second World War.

Throughout the inter war period, the Admiralty had been continually sceptical of the aircraft's ability to sink a surface vessel. It was regarded as merely a reconnaissance technology. This resulted in a lack of development of a maritime strike force and lost another early opportunity to garner support for Coastal Area/Coastal Command.

In summation First Sea Lord David Beatty, 1st Earl Beatty proclaimed "I know of no operation in which the Navy and the Air [Service] have to co-operate in which the Navy would not play the more important role than the air service"

PPS Sheldon's IF ONLY-speaks volumes

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-07-2012, 15:07
Rupert Rupert is offline
Rear-Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: The Formation of the Fleet Air Arm

Quote:
Originally Posted by KizmeRD View Post
Future generations of fighter aircraft are all going to be pilotless drones. The Royal Navy is already preparing for this technological change-over by fitting Play Stations in the Junior Rates Messes of all our ships at sea - what are the RAF doing I ask you?

Michael
Interesting thread.

Military aviation is undoubtedly changing towards Autonomous/Unmanned/Uninhabited air vehicles rather than traditional aircraft. These range from tiny hand launched affairs to aircraft sized complex vehicles.

Currently they are more at the unmanned (i.e. remote contol) end rather than autonomous but this is changing. Meaning that not only will a pilot not be needed, nor will the equivalent person back at base.

As this proceeds, one does wonder whether the force that is at risk is not the FAA but the RAF. Certainly the RAF reactions in the build-up to SDSR seemed to indicate that they thought there was a risk of aviation being handed over to the army/AAC and RN/FAA. Increasingly perhaps the FAA will by the same token by less a quasi-separate organisation, and more just another subset of equipment within the RN
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-07-2012, 15:31
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,515
Default Re: The Formation of the Fleet Air Arm

The RAF is unlikely to go down the path of recruiting computer whizzes.
But the Americans have accepted the need for only a second-class medical certificate, and some RAF airmen believe it is only a matter of time before medically unfit experienced combat pilots get a new lease of life flying drones.
This in itself speaks volumes

Within two years, a new British drone, Taranis, is due to be unveiled that may finally be enough to excite the Typhoon pilots.
Designed during a project to replace RAF Tornado GR4s, it is expected to look like a bat-winged stealth bomber and will have such a long flight duration and weapons-carrying ability that it may spell the end of manned combat aircraft.

The point you make Rupert about how all of this new technology will seriously affect the existing Armed Services is an important one.I believe that it is possible for the "last in"-the RAF could well be run down; as the air roles are taken up by the Royal Navy and the Army.At this juncture it is pure supposition but Time Marches On and of course" waiteth for no man"
However of the four fundamental roles of air and space power (control of the air and space, air mobility, intelligence and situational awareness, and attack), cyberwar has key role to play in each. The RAF must drive these capabilities forward in the Joint environment alongside the other services. Crucially, in developing this way the RAF would find it easier to articulate its relevance in the 21st Century as it focused on capabilities and not delivery platforms. In the 20th Century the aeroplane was unique because of its capabilities but in the 21st Century it no longer remains so. The future of the Royal Air Force is not just about planes.



jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 11-07-2012 at 15:49.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-07-2012, 17:15
Rupert Rupert is offline
Rear-Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: The Formation of the Fleet Air Arm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jainso31 View Post
The future of the Royal Air Force is not just about planes.

jainso31
A very key sentence. The question is whether the RAF have made it so. By trying to insist on ship launched aircraft and every helicopter capable of carrying more than x people being an RAF thing.

They could have carved out a boundary which is not so defined by the platform but by capability. But I don't think they have, and it may be too late to change.

Is a completely autonomous reconnaisance vehicle that looks like a missile, is controlled like a missile and flies like a missile an aircraft (and hence RAF) or a missile and hence RN (say)

There are UAVs that are more aircraft like, but the boundary is blurring
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-07-2012, 17:35
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,515
Default Re: The Formation of the Fleet Air Arm

"flies like a missile an aircraft (and hence RAF)"-not so Rupert,FAA and AAC have aircraft too; but the RAF do not have missiles (other than those carried as weapons).I too think the RAF should by now, have nailed their flag to the mast of capability.
"They could have carved out a boundary which is not so defined by the platform but by capability. But I don't think they have, and it may be too late to change."
I do believe that you have" hit the nail squarely on the head" with that statement ."Too Late the Capability" may be their epitaph Rupert.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
Reply



Ship Search by Name : Advanced Search
Random Timeline Entry : 24th January 1933 : HMS Basilisk : Sailed Gulf of St. Tropez

NAVAL PRINTS

Click above to see our naval art portal - Eight random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

The Pedestal Convoy of August 1942 was one of the most heavily protected convoys in the history of sea warfare.  Fourteen of the fastest cargo ships of the time were protected by 4 carriers, 2 battleships, 7 cruisers and 32 destroyers.  The destroyer HMS Ashanti is in the foreground of the painting.  Also depicted are the carrier HMS Indomitable, with her Hurricanes cirling the convoy overhead, and the cargoe ship Port Chalmers to the right of the picture.

Pedestal Convoy by Anthony Saunders (B)
Half Price! - £20.00

USS Oakland Escorting the Damaged USS Lexington by Ivan Berryman
Half Price! - £15.00
 The view across Battleship Row, viewed from above Ford Island as the USS Nevada gallantly makes her break for the open sea, coming under heavy attack from Japanese A6M2s from the carrier Hiryu. The Nevada was eventually too badly damaged to continue and was beached to avoid blocking the harbour entrance. In the immediate foreground, the lightly damaged USS Tennessee is trapped inboard of USS West Virginia which has sunk at her moorings, leaking burning oil and hampering the daring operations to pluck trapped crew members from her decks, while just visible to the right is the stern of the USS Maryland and the capsized Oklahoma.
Attack on Pearl Harbor by Ivan Berryman (AP)
Half Price! - £25.00
 The Leander class cruiser HMS Orion is shown departing Grand Harbour Malta late in 1945.

HMS Orion by Ivan Berryman.
Half Price! - £15.00

 A swordfish from HMS Warspite on patrol off the coast of Egypt, near the port of Alexandria.

Out of Alex by David Pentland.
Half Price! - £35.00
The Battle of Trafalgar was fought on a calm, almost windless day, on 21st October 1805.  Nelsons revolutionary battle plan was to cut apart the larger Franco-Spanish fleet of Vice-Admiral Villeneuve by sailing in two single column divisions directly at right angles into the combined fleet and thus rendering almost half of the leading ships useless until the could turn and join the fight, which in such calm conditions could take hours.  The battle raged for five hours in which time not one British ship was lost, however, Nelson would tragically lose his life at the very moment of his triumph, a triumph which rendered the British Navy unchallenged in supremacy for over a century.  Here HMS Mars passes between the French ship Belleisle on her starboard and the French ship Fougeux on her port, firing a murderous hail of gunfire at both ships.  Also shown in the painting on the left hand side is the Spanish ship Monarco and the French ship Pluton.

The Battle of Trafalgar - Mars Breaks the Line†by Anthony Saunders. (AP)
Half Price! - £60.00
 The first submarine to carry the name, HMS Vengeance (S31) is the fourth and last of the Vanguard class, entering service with the Royal Navy on 27th November 1999.  This nuclear-powered vessel has 16 tubes for launching the Trident D5 missile and four tubes in her bow, firing Spearfish Torpedoes.

HMS Vengeance by Ivan Berryman. (P)
Half Price! - £700.00
 HMS Glorious flying off a Fairey Swordfish at sunset with HMS Ardent off to Starboard.

HMS Glorious by Ivan Berryman. (Y)
Half Price! - £50.00

SPORT PRINTS

Click above to see our sport art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

A montage of moments from the outstanding Welsh 6 Nation Championship Grand Slam Victory of 2005.
The Perfect Year - Wales Grand Slam Champions 2005 by Darren Baker. (Y)
Half Price! - £50.00
DH007. Steady Johnnie Steady by Erskine Nicol.
Steady Johnnie Steady by Erskine Nicol.
Half Price! - £12.00
 A quartet of Ferrari 801s are warmed up at Rouen-les-Essarts.  French Grand Prix 1957.

Thoroughbreds in the Paddock by Ray Goldsbrough.
Half Price! - £75.00
 Valentino Rossi on his way to a seventh Moto GP World Championship in the 2009 season on his Yamaha, scoring thirteen podium finishes, including six race wins, leaving him 45 points clear of his nearest rival.

Valentino Rossi by Ivan Berryman. (P)
Half Price! - £525.00

AVIATION PRINTS

Click above to see our aviation art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 The end of an era.  British Airways Concorde G-BOAG moments before touching down at Heathrow for the very last time.

Final Touchdown by Ivan Berryman.
Half Price! - £15.00
DHM412GL. Search Party Reaction by David Rowlands.

Search Party Reaction by David Rowlands (GL)
Half Price! - £300.00
1st June 1940 - Pete Peters fights off overwhelming attack over Dunkirk and destroys three fighters.  Anson MKV flown by pilot officer Phillip Peters was leading a petrol of three Ansons of No 500 Royal Auxiliary Air Force Squadron over Dunkirk at the time the British Expeditionary Forces were evacuating from the beaches. He was flying at around 50ft when his mid upper gunner reported that nine Bf109s were attacking. Dropping to wave-top height the slow obsolescent twin engined aircraft tried to shake off their pursuers. Two planes were severely damaged and Peters sent them home, leaving his own aircraft at the mercy of the enemy fighters.

Improbable Victory by Tim Fisher (P)
Half Price! - £1700.00
 Two Fairey Firefly F Mk1s of 1770 NAS embarked on HMS Indefatigable are shown outbound on Operation Meridian I on 24th January 1945.  The nearest aircraft is DT947, flown by Vin Redding.  Operation Meridian was a series of two air attacks on Japanese-held oil refineries at Palembang on Sumatra. †The huge aviation fuel output of these refineries was reduced to only a quarter of their output after the two raids†on the 24th and 29th January 1945.

Fairey Firefly F Mk.Is of 1770 Sqn, 1945 by Ivan Berryman. (P)
Half Price! - £700.00

MILITARY PRINTS

Click above to see our military art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 Braving intense enemy fire, Lt. Col. RB Mayne, Commanding Officer 1st SAS Regiment devastated a German ambush and subsequently rescued wounded troops of his own unit who had been pinned down while on a reconnaissance mission for the 4th Canadian Armoured Division.

Paddys Fourth DSO, The Olderburg Raid, 9th April 1945 by David Pentland. (GS)
Half Price! - £250.00
 Preussisch Stargard, East Prussia, February 1945.  Following the departure  of the platoon's two other vehicles, after expending all their ammunition, the single Jagdpanther of Oberfeldwebel Hermann Bix remained to cover the withdrawal of all supporting infantry in the area.  Hidden behind a muck heap, with only twenty armour piercing and five high explosive shells remaining he made the attacking Soviet Shermans pay a heavy price, destroying sixteen of their number before he too fell back out of ammunition.

The Rearguard by David Pentland. (P)
Half Price! - £700.00
 Bastogne, Ardennes, Belgium, 20th December 1944.  Newly arrived 81mm Mortars of 2nd Battalion, 506th PIR, 101st Airborne Division, fire in support of U.S. Paratroopers defending against German probes to the north of Bastogne.

Fire for Effect by David Pentland.
Half Price! - £70.00
 M3 Lee tanks and troops from General Slims 14th Army clear Japanese resistance form the village of Ywathitgyi in their drive to Mandalay.

Road to Mandalay, Burma, February 1945 by David Pentland. (GL)
Half Price! - £300.00
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fleet Air Arm Ednamay Other Naval Topics 24 19-07-2011 08:09
Grand Fleet? GaryH Naval Book Forum 3 05-08-2010 16:54
Grand Fleet meets the German High Seas Fleet 27.11.18 SCRG1970 Other Naval Topics 3 04-03-2010 20:35
The Fleet which had to die MMM Photo Galleries 23 04-03-2010 04:12


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.