World Naval Ships Forums  
CURRENT SPECIAL OFFERS ON OUR HUGE SELECTION OF ART PRINTS!

Go Back   World Naval Ships Forums > Naval History > Battles and Events
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Battles and Events Topics covering naval battles, actions, fleet reviews and any other naval events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #76  
Old 16-04-2012, 17:04
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

So OK- the 4.5" hits were made at 0425, when the range was near to 18000 yds;surely that strengthens the case for two hits being from 4.5"guns???
What is it that makes you think the hits were made at 0425; and why is it so significant???

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 16-04-2012 at 19:20.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 17-04-2012, 04:04
Paul C.'s Avatar
Paul C. Paul C. is offline
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Jamaica
Posts: 280
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Here's where the 4:25 time is from:

(Remember the German times are 1 hour ahead, so 5:00 = 4:00 in British accounts)

The map I posted notes a 114 mm (4.5-inch) hit on Turret Anton at 5:15 AM and the foretop hit by the 381 mm (15-inch) shell at 5:25.

However, according to the KBismarck discussion - Gneisenau's war diary puts the foretop hit at 5:16, but Lutjen's log has it at 5:25 - agreeing with the map. Who is right?

The flooding of Anton is what occured heavily at 5:34, which seems to have lead to the assumption that a hit occured at that time. But it may well have been due to the new course of Gneisenau, retreating from Renown at that time, that took her into the wind and waves at increasing speed causing a deluge of seawater over her bows. The damaged turret was therefore inundated.

So I think in my account I may have transposed the times and put the foretop hit first and the smaller hits at the later time... That may not be correct!

Confused? I don't blame you... I don't know if it is even possible to rationalize all this!
__________________

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 17-04-2012, 07:38
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Paul-your fastidiousness is amazing and is to be admired; but when push comes to shove; it still comes down to the fact that these last hits on Gneisenau WERE from 4.5" shells.
The order of the hits; as Vince has them, is possibly incorrect. Anton turret's flooding occurred at 0534 (0434=Vince's given time of the strike on Anton turret)

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 18-04-2012, 03:32
Paul C.'s Avatar
Paul C. Paul C. is offline
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Jamaica
Posts: 280
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Jim, you are way too kind!

I guess it's a little frustating not to be able to dissect this action down to the minute as has been done and done and done with the Denmark Strait, but sometimes you are forced to leave well enough alone!

I really must thank EVERYONE who has contributed to this thread. I've been so gratified by the response (including those who read, but did not post - I thank you for your attention!) and I'm sure we've all learned something.

Renown, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were all great ships in their own right - fast, powerful, beautiful and all made major contributions to the war effort of their respective side.

Though this battle between them was inconclusive, it did set the tone for most future encounters between major British and German warships for the rest the war, based on the German naval directive that opponents of equal or greater strength should be avoided - "No unnecessary risks!". The Kriegsmarine could ill afford to lose its ships - a small, but highly potent and capable force.

The Royal Navy could ill afford not to make every effort to subdue them. As the Admiralty grudgingly stated after the vindication of Admiral Somerville's conduct of the Spartivento action in its ill-advised inquiry:

Quote:
No opportunity must be allowed to pass of attaining what is in fact the ultimate objective of the Royal Navy - the destruction of the enemy's forces whenever and wherever encountered.
Renown certainly gave it her all off Stromvaer Light.

__________________

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 18-04-2012, 03:34
Vince O'Hara Vince O'Hara is offline
Sub-Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 139
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

I note the contradictions in the timing of events and I'll see where I got the times that I cited in my book, hopefully tomorrow. One generic comment I'll make that will come as no surprise to anyone here is that the accounts of most naval actions are full of discrepancies and contradictions. One of my favorite examples can be found in the London Gazette (12 May 1948) account of the action off Sfax on 16 April 1941. The Gazette reprints the reports of the British destroyer captains who participated. Jervis gives the time when she opened fire as 0220, Janus says it was 0222, Nubian 0210 and Mohawk 0205.

Vince
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 18-04-2012, 07:10
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Excellent postscript Paul and one of the finest photographs of the great ship that was Renown.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 18-04-2012, 13:48
Vince O'Hara Vince O'Hara is offline
Sub-Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 139
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C. View Post
Here's where the 4:25 time is from:

(Remember the German times are 1 hour ahead, so 5:00 = 4:00 in British accounts)

The map I posted notes a 114 mm (4.5-inch) hit on Turret Anton at 5:15 AM and the foretop hit by the 381 mm (15-inch) shell at 5:25.

However, according to the KBismarck discussion - Gneisenau's war diary puts the foretop hit at 5:16, but Lutjen's log has it at 5:25 - agreeing with the map. Who is right?

The flooding of Anton is what occured heavily at 5:34, which seems to have lead to the assumption that a hit occured at that time. But it may well have been due to the new course of Gneisenau, retreating from Renown at that time, that took her into the wind and waves at increasing speed causing a deluge of seawater over her bows. The damaged turret was therefore inundated.

So I think in my account I may have transposed the times and put the foretop hit first and the smaller hits at the later time... That may not be correct!

Confused? I don't blame you... I don't know if it is even possible to rationalize all this!
The 0434 time cited for the second hit comes from the British Naval Staff History reprinted in Naval Operations of the Campaign in Norway which states on page 21: "At 0434 the Gneisenau received a second hit which struck 'A' turret by the left hood of the rangefinder."

The war diary for Gneisenau reprinted in Battleships of the Scharnhorst class has this entry for 0534 (German times are an hour ahead) "'A' turret flooding due to heavy seas. Large pumps requested. Heavy quantities seawater coming in through left optic of rangefinder cupola after hit knocked away cover."

I don't know if this relieves the confusion any but at least it provides an authority for the 0434 time. Looking at it now and in light of this discussion, I'd guess the first 4.5-inch hit occured some minutes before 0434.

Vince
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 18-04-2012, 14:00
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

The above statement from Vince echoes what I said in #78.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 27-12-2013, 14:41
argaum argaum is offline
Recruit
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Hi ,i am at home with my grandads medals,photos and pendant HMS RENOWN (action 1940)this is a great read for me things i just did not now. my grandad was a stoker W.V.DAVEY . THANKS ANDY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C. View Post
Hi all,

I did a search and could not find a thread devoted to the details of this action, so I thought I'd put something together. Hope you'll enjoy reading it and will add your comments.


Basic Background

This action took place during the ultimately successful invasion of Norway by the Germans in April 1940. With British and German naval forces at sea carrying out various operations it was inevitable that clashes would and did occur.


Main References:

Peter C. Smith – The Battlecruiser Renown 1916-1948
Garzke & Dulin – Battleships – Axis and Neutral Battleships of WW2
Fritz Otto Busch – The Sinking of the Scharnhorst
John Jordan – An Illustrated Guide to Battleships and Battlecruisers
KBismarck Forum Thread – “Battle of Stromvaer”
WNS Forum Thread – “Galloper’s Good Gunnery”
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 02-01-2014, 09:50
Rupert Rupert is offline
Rear-Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,216
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

In terms of what the RN could have done better, the one possibility that has not been discussed (I think) is for the destroyers to hold fire. It is not clear that their presence would have been known without the fireflashes.

Holding fire could have encouraged to the German ships to turn and close on (apparent) lone RN vessel.

Far from certain and only with the benefit of hindsight, but it is a possibility
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 04-01-2014, 17:15
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote from#1
The British destroyers made a spirited attempt to take part in the battle, firing their 4.7-inch guns, but they were eventually left behind, unable to keep pace with the speeding Renown in the heavy seas. Their gun flashes, however, looked impressive enough to the Germans to influence their continuation of the action.

The above is from paul C's original post and certainly bears out Rupert's assertion that the destroyers shell flashes may well have influenced the German decision to break off the action-the destroyers, in any case; being left behind. In those circumstances the RN could not have done better

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 04-01-2014 at 18:08.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 08-07-2014, 13:32
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Gneisenau and Scharnhorst closed formation and reduced speed because of flooding in their forward turrets.Despite their complaints that Renown fired fast and continuously while they were being handicapped by the heavy seas and machinery breakdowns;and the top heavy Renown laboured much harder in the heavy weather that the two modern battleships.
Renown fired 230 15" rounds- mostly from A and B turrets;and 1065 5.5" rounds,Severe blast damage allowed sea water to flood into her A and Y shell rooms. Scharnhorst fired 195 11" rounds from from Caesar turret and 91 5.9" rounds. Gneisenau fired only 54 main battery rounds and nothing from her secondary armament.
German 11" shells hit Renown twice for a hit rate of 0.8%.Renown landed but one 15" shell hit Gneisenau's foretop, for a hit rate of 0.4%.The German's mounted 18 X 11" guns to Renown's 6 X 15" guns .In the circumstances Whitworth was lucky that Lutjens chose to run rather than fight-what if they had chosen to stay,deploy and fight?? Question is -why didn't he???
The German battleships returned to Germany on 12th April;after the British sank all ten destroyers they were supposed to support.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 08-07-2014 at 15:01.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 08-07-2014, 15:20
M. A. Rozon M. A. Rozon is offline
Chief Petty Officer
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 95
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote:
Originally Posted by jainso31 View Post
In the circumstances Whitworth was lucky that Lutjens chose to run rather than fight-what if they had chosen to stay,deploy and fight?? Question is -why didn't he???jainso31
Admittedly a quote from Wikipedia but, perhaps to answer some of this particular question:

"At the outbreak of World War II, Lütjens was Commander of Scouting Forces. In April 1940, during the invasion of Denmark and Norway (Operation Weserübung), he served as Vice Admiral, commanding the distant cover forces in the North Sea—which consisted of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. His superior, Vizeadmiral Wilhelm Marschall, had fallen ill just before the operation, so he assumed command of the Narvik and Trondheim landings.

Lütjens' mission was to draw British units away from Narvik and facilitate the landings there. During the landing phase, his forces were approached by an Royal Navy task-force led by the battlecruiser HMS Renown. The British ship engaged at 05:05 and Lütjens was forced to fight an inconclusive battle with Renown. He succeeded in extracting the German vessels without incurring major battle damage. He viewed his operation as a success.

It may have been possible for him to turn on and sink Renown by attacking from different directions, using Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, but the accompanying British destroyers were well placed to join the fight had he done so. His Commander-in-Chief, Erich Raeder, endorsed his actions which would have placed him against a clear eastern horizon as opposed to an enemy that was positioned against a darkened western horizon. Action at that time would have given the enemy a clearer silhouette to aim at while obscuring the British ships somewhat. Under those circumstances, Raeder felt the British would have had a tactical advantage. Lütjens later rendezvoused with the Admiral Hipper and reached Wilhelmshaven on 12 April, having avoided a major fleet action.

Lütjens nearly changed his mind during the battle, believing a pitched fight may bring relief to the German destroyer force at Narvik—a force which he had effectively been forced to abandon in the face of enemy sea superiority. But the prospect of running into HMS Rodney, now known by German naval intelligence to be in the vicinity, was too much of a risk. In the resultant Battles of Narvik 10 German destroyers were sunk and the campaign for the port lasted until June. In the wake of Lütjens return, he learned Marschall had recovered to assume command."

In short, it would seem that his orders were not to seek battle but to draw heavy enemy forces away from other German naval operations. He carried out his orders and for this he was rewarded. Marschall would later seek battle against orders, sinking Glorious but taking serious damage in the course of that engagement and was sacked.

Bigger Guns, MORE POWER!

Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 08-07-2014, 15:53
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

"Quote by M A Rozon

"Lütjens nearly changed his mind during the battle, believing a pitched fight may bring relief to the German destroyer force at Narvik—a force which he had effectively been forced to abandon in the face of enemy sea superiority. But the prospect of running into HMS Rodney, now known by German naval intelligence to be in the vicinity, was too much of a risk. In the resultant Battles of Narvik 10 German destroyers were sunk and the campaign for the port lasted until June. In the wake of Lütjens return, he learned Marschall had recovered to assume command."

Leaving the "what if" (Rodney) out of the issue-what does the statement "in the face of enemy sea superiority " mean precisely in this particular case.The British destroyers made a spirited attempt to take part in the battle, firing their 4.7-inch guns, but they were eventually left behind, unable to keep pace with the speeding Renown in the heavy seas.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 08-07-2014 at 16:28.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 08-07-2014, 16:41
PhilipG PhilipG is offline
Sub-Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Arundel, Sussex
Posts: 193
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote:
Originally Posted by jainso31 View Post

Leaving the "what if" (Rodney) out of the issue-what does the statement "in the face of enemy sea superiority " mean precisely in this particular case
Jim I feel that the phrase comes from German intelligence, Rodney was meant to be close by, Renown was known to be there as they had engaged, there were probably over a dozen RN destroyers with the capital ships and the aircraft carrier Glorious was not too far away.

As a German Navy leader in this position, with ships that had been damaged by shell fire and the weather, the thought of dealing with any of these more powerful fleet units would have been daunting if not verging on the insane.

I am not sure what effect on German battle doctrine the loss of the Admiral Graf Spee had, the Kriegsmarine did not have many major units.

What would have been interesting is if Glorious and Ark Royal had been in the area, the Germans must have been aware that Glorious was back with the Home Fleet after her refit in Malta.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 08-07-2014, 17:18
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote Philip

"Jim I feel that the phrase comes from German intelligence, Rodney was meant to be close by, Renown was known to be there as they had engaged, there were probably over a dozen RN destroyers with the capital ships and the aircraft carrier Glorious was not too far away."

I see where you are coming from Philip but :-
1 Rodney was not close by- she was with the HF leaving Scapa on the 8th
2 Renown's destroyers had been left behind during the chase and
3 Glorious was proceeding to GB and was sunk by Scharnhorst as she left the scene of action with Gneisenau

However I concede that these "what ifs" would have to be taken into the German viewpoint as being "real" dangers.They had carried out part of the task, by luring Renown away from the scene at Narvik.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 08-07-2014 at 17:49.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 09-07-2014, 03:31
Paul C.'s Avatar
Paul C. Paul C. is offline
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Jamaica
Posts: 280
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Hi all,

I find the Rodney reference a bit ironic since Luetjens was on Gneisenau whose spotters had identified Renown as "Nelson" - hence they fired mostly base-fused HE shells after 2 opening salvos of AP. It was Scharnhorst that correctly identified the Renown.

I would think they would have figured out that it could not be a Nelson when they had such a hard time getting away.

Jim, I don't see why Renown was "top heavy" - her full reconstruction made her handle "like a destroyer". It was Hood and Repulse that may have had that problem with all their pre-war and wartime additions that cost them freeboard. Her main problem with her hull in the heavy seas was her bulges which were torn away.

Paul
__________________

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:32
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Paul-In 1936 it was decided to give Renown a massive rebuild, in the line of the rebuilds of the Queen Elizabeth-class ships. Her entire superstructure was torn down to the deck and completely rebuilt. Her engines were replaced with modern, more powerful, machinery. After the rebuild, Renown was actually capable of surpassing the speed of one of the fastest battlecruisers in the fleet: HMS Hood.
Her secondary battery was also completely overhauled, removing the 4" guns and replacing them with dual-purpose 4.5"/45 Mark I and III guns. The torpedo tubes were removed and the AA guns were replaced by three octuple 2-pounder Pom-Pom AA emplacements.According to her 1939 statistics-she was 4000 tons heavier.

Perhaps my original source misconstrued this aspect.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 09-07-2014 at 08:56.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 09-07-2014, 10:42
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

The eminent naval historian Correli Barnett in his book "Engage the Enemy more Closely"pub 1992 p111 and I quote:-

"In the event it was Whitworth with Renown who encountered the Scharnhost and Gneisenau and their destroyer escort at 0337 9th April,some 50 miles off Vestfjord; as the German ships were steering north on their "diversionary" course-simulating a breakout into the Atlantic.It was now blowing a full gale,with mountainous seas and sudden curtains of snow or rain.

At 0405 Renown opened fire with her 15" guns at a range of about 15000yds-twelve minutes later she knocked out Gneisenau's main gunnery control system,which persuaded the enemy to run for it.In the stern chase that ensued,Whitworth hit Gneisenau twice at 0434 and knocked out a forward turret.However the weather was on the side of the German ships and which caused the Renown to slow down in order to fight her fore turrets and the speeding Germans to fight their after turrets.

Although at times Whitworth drove Renown up to 29kts,the two German ships had disappeared from view amid a squall.Nevertheless,a british force had asserted a moral supremacy.The fact that Whitworth had been compelled to fight two modern battlecruisers was mark of the Admiralt's failure to read German strategic intentions correctly and concentrate Britain's naval resources in the key areas-as opposed to protecting minelayers elsewhere"

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 09-07-2014, 11:21
Paul C.'s Avatar
Paul C. Paul C. is offline
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Jamaica
Posts: 280
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote:
The eminent naval historian Correli Barnett in his book "Engage the Enemy more Closely"pub 1992 p111 and I quote:-

"In the event it was Whitworth with Renown who encountered the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and their destroyer escort
Uh oh...Mr. Barnett seems to have switched the side of the destroyer escort!

Quote:
The fact that Whitworth had been compelled to fight two modern battlecruisers was mark of the Admiralt's failure to read German strategic intentions correctly and concentrate Britain's naval resources in the key areas-as opposed to protecting minelayers elsewhere"
Well we know that Repulse was in the general area and joined with Renown later that day (about 1400), obviously way too late. It would have been an interesting scenario if she'd been there for the battle.
__________________

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 09-07-2014, 11:45
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

I would assume here Paul- that they (S&G) were shepherding the destroyers to the Narvik area-yes- all ten of them; and which they signalled to go on to their appointed areas when they came under fire from Renown; and these were the destroyers that were sunk in the Vestfjord on the 10th to 13th April 1940. So no I do not think he got them wrong but misnamed them, by calling them "escort"; but again what else would they do "en voyage"???

Re. Repulse-she may have made a difference- IF she were deployed such that she was NOT also following in the wake of the German capital ships.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 09-07-2014, 18:28
BCRenown's Avatar
BCRenown BCRenown is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 714
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

[quote][...The fact that Whitworth had been compelled to fight two modern battlecruisers was mark of the Admiralt's failure to read German strategic intentions correctly and concentrate Britain's naval resources in the key areas-as opposed to protecting minelayers elsewhere"
/QUOTE]

But it would certainly have suited British 'strategic intentions' if one or both of the German battleships had failed to make it back to port.
__________________
Keep well and keep posting,
Monty

<a href=http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/image.php?u=4345&type=sigpic&dateline=1228940259 target=_blank>http://www.worldnavalships.com/forum...ine=1228940259</a>

Battlecruiser Renown in 1936 - looking as splendid as ever.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 10-07-2014, 06:05
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote Monty

"But it would certainly have suited British 'strategic intentions' if one or both of the German battleships had failed to make it back to port".

Unfortunate that was ,at the time,something we were unable to do;although Renown had tried hard enough.She hit Gneisenau- but failed to stop/slow down or otherwise put her in a position- where she could have sunk the German battlecruiser.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
Reply



Ship Search by Name : Advanced Search
Random Timeline Entry : 8th January 2009 : HMS Cornwall : Faslane

NAVAL PRINTS

Click above to see our naval art portal - Eight random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

The cruiser HMS Frobisher dominates this scene off Houlgate at the Normandy landings of 1944.  The monitor HMS Roberts lies beyond Frobisher with a Large Infantry Landing Ship or LSI (L) unshipping its LCAs on the extreme right of the picture.  In the foreground, a motor launch attends a group of LCP (L)s as they head for the French beaches.  Two Spitfire Mk.IXs conduct sweeps overhead as Operation Neptune gathers momentum.

HMS Frobisher and HMS Roberts at Normandy by Ivan Berryman (P)
Half Price! - £4000.00
The Pedestal Convoy of August 1942 was one of the most heavily protected convoys in the history of sea warfare.  Fourteen of the fastest cargo ships of the time were protected by 4 carriers, 2 battleships, 7 cruisers and 32 destroyers.  The destroyer HMS Ashanti is in the foreground of the painting.  Also depicted are the carrier HMS Indomitable, with her Hurricanes cirling the convoy overhead, and the cargoe ship Port Chalmers to the right of the picture.

Pedestal Convoy by Anthony Saunders (B)
Half Price! - £20.00
DHM1322.  HMS Glasgow by Ivan Berryman.

HMS Glasgow by Ivan Berryman.
Half Price! - £50.00
 Of the three E-Class cruisers proposed at the end of World War 1, only two were ever completed, Euphrates being cancelled when the war with Germany ended in 1918.  The two sisters, Emerald and Enterprise, enjoyed long and varied careers, the former remaining largely unchanged from her original appearance, the latter being much modified.  The two ships are shown together at anchor off Trincomalie between the wars.

HMS Emerald and HMS Enterprise by Ivan Berryman. (P)
Half Price! - £3000.00

 The third of the Royal Navy's Vanguard class submarines, HMS Vigilant (S30) entered service on 2nd November 1996.  She is based at HMNB Clyde at Faslane and carries the UK's nuclear deterrent Trident ballistic missile.  Manned by a crew of 14 officers and 121 men, her main power is supplied by one Rolls Royce PWR2 nuclear reactor driving two GEC turbines.

HMS Vigilant by Ivan Berryman. (P)
Half Price! - £725.00
 The mighty Bismarck returns fire to the fast-approaching HMS Hood a the start of a battle that would see both adversaries tragically sunk.

Bismarck Replies to HMS Hood by Ivan Berryman (AP)
Half Price! - £25.00
HMS Ark Royal IV - Flagship of the Flag Officer Aircraft Carriers - a mobile airfield and a most impressive sight as she launches a Phantom from one of her catapults. She had a standard displacement of 43,000 tons, a beam of 168 feet, and was 846 feet long. Ships company numbered 2,570 and her Air Group consisted of Phantom Interceptors, Buccaneer strike and Gannet AEW aircraft together with Wessex SAR and Sea King ASW helicopters. She served her Nation and the Royal Navy for 23 years and sailed 800,000 miles of valuable service, finally being decommissioned in 1979.
Ark Royal by Philip West (AP)
Half Price! - £140.00
HMS Illustrious slips quietly away from the docks at Devonport, Plymouth with the Fiji class cruiser in the middle distance, 1941.

HMS Illustrious and HMS Kenya at Devonport by Ivan Berryman (P)
Half Price! - £3000.00

SPORT PRINTS

Click above to see our sport art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers



Jason Robinson by Robert Highton. (Y)
Half Price! - £83.00
 A cricketing genius, Sir Garfield Sobers excelled at all aspects of the game.  One of his most memorable moments being the six consecutive sixes hit off one over. 

Sir Garfield Sobers by Gary Keane.
Half Price! - £60.00


Lennox Lewis by Peter Deighan.
Half Price! - £50.00
 A celebration of Nigel Mansells success in winning the Formula 1 World Championship and the Indy Car Championship in successive years. A celebration of the magnificent talents of Nigel Mansell. He made his debut in Formula 1 in 1981 and his superb driving technique made an instant impact. He recorded victory after victory coming agonisingly close to being world champion many times before gaining his well deserved Formula 1 title in 1992. The following year he recorded an unprecedented double, gaining the Indy Car championship in 1993. A feat that reserves his name quite rightly in the record books.
Mansell by Peter Deighan.
Half Price! - £45.00

AVIATION PRINTS

Click above to see our aviation art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 Despite crippling damage to their Lancaster ED925 (G), the crew of AJ-M continued to press home their attack on the Mohne Dam on the night of 16th/17th May 1943. With both port engines ablaze, Flt Lt J V Hopgood forced his blazing aircraft on, releasing the Upkeep bomb just precious seconds too late to strike the dam, the mine instead bouncing over the wall and onto the power station below with devastating results. ED925 attempted to recover from the maelstrom, but the fuel fire was too intense and the aircraft was tragically lost, just two of her crew managing to escape the impact to spend the rest of the war as PoWs.

No Way Back by Ivan Berryman.
Half Price! - £30.00
 RAF Mosquitos attack a German supply train.

Mosquito Bite by Geoff Lea. (P)
Half Price! - £1400.00
 With his personal emblem of black and white fuselage band adorning his Fokker E.V, 153/18, Richard Wenzl briefly commanded Jasta 6, based at Bernes in August 1918, and claimed a modest 6 victories during his career with JG 1. The Fokker E.V was both fast and manoeuvrable, but a series of engine and structural failures meant that these exciting new machines saw only brief service before being re-worked to emerge as the D.VIII, sadly too late to make any impression on the war. Wenzl is shown here in combat with Sopwith Camels of 203 Sqn, assisted by Fokker D.VIIs, which served alongside the E.Vs of Jasta 6. The D.VII shown is that of Ltn d R Erich Just of Jasta 11, also based at Bernes.

Leutnant d R Richard Wenzl by Ivan Berryman. (AP)
Half Price! - £60.00
 RAF Hastings drop men of 3 PARA battalion on the Egyptian airfield of El Gamil as part of the Airborne element of Operation Musketeer, (Anglo-French plan to re-open the Suez Canal after its closure by Egyptian President Nasser) Carried to their target by 18 Valettas and 9 Hastings of RAF Transport Command, and supported by Air strikes by Fleet Air Arm Sea Venoms and Seahawks they quickly succeeded in securing their objective.

Suez Drop, 5th November 1956 by David Pentland.
Half Price! - £50.00

MILITARY PRINTS

Click above to see our military art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 88mm AA guns of the 23rd Flak Regiment, used as anti-tank guns by orders of Rommel himself, are shown firing on British Matilda tanks of 4th/7th Royal Tank Regiment.

Action at Arras, France, 21st May 1940 by David Pentland. (Y)
Half Price! - £50.00
 Cheux, Normandy, 25th June 1944.  Royal Armoured Corps Recce troops of the 15th (Scottish) Infantry Division set up a temporary observation post to locate 12th SS Panzer Division positions, prior to Operation Epsom.  The 15th Division comprised of 9th Cameronians, 2nd Glasgow Highlanders, 7th Seaforth Highlanders, 8th Royal Scots, 6th Royal Scots Fusiliers, 6th King's Own Scottish Borderers, 10th Highland Light Infantry, 2nd Gordon Highlanders and the 2nd Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

Enemy in Sight by David Pentland. (P)
Half Price! - £700.00
 Sturmgeschutz IIIg and Paratroops of the 4th Fallschirmjager Division, driving to the front line, pass one of the two giant 28cm K5 (Eisenbaum) railway guns responsible for the shelling the Allied beacheads at Anzio and Nettuno.

Anzio Annie, Italy, 29th January 1945 by David Pentland. (GL)
Half Price! - £300.00
 M3 Lee tanks and troops from General Slims 14th Army clear Japanese resistance form the village of Ywathitgyi in their drive to Mandalay.

Road to Mandalay, Burma, February 1945 by David Pentland. (GL)
Half Price! - £300.00
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aircraft Carriers "Joffre" and "Painleve" Grosser Kreuzer French Ships and Crews 9 13-10-2014 17:25
DD 110, a "Fourstacker" "Flush Decker" John Odom US Navy Ships and Crews 4 28-03-2013 11:12
Scharnhorst and Gneisenau NASAAN101 German Ships and Crews 52 20-05-2010 10:39
Scharnhorst and Gneisenau Vs. HMS Rawalpindi NASAAN101 German Ships and Crews 12 04-03-2009 19:12


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.