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  #1  
Old 30-12-2017, 14:40
Sarky's Avatar
Sarky Sarky is offline
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Default RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Hello everyone,

I've been looking at aviation during the 1950s/Korean War era and have searched for records of aircraft employed by the Royal Air Force at this time. Does anyone have such records?
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  #2  
Old 31-12-2017, 22:23
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Not quite sure what you are after; this site has a lot of good stuff on the RAF:
http://www.rafweb.org/Menu.htm
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  #3  
Old 01-01-2018, 21:07
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Hi Sarky,
I have access to several of the Air Britain (Historians) published works. Are you looking for some sort of Order of Battle or the histories of individual aircraft?
Cheers, Sandy
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  #4  
Old 02-01-2018, 13:30
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Hi again Sarky,
If you are looking for RAF involvement in the Korean War there is not much to write about. There were 1,100 sorties by Sunderland V flying boats flown out of Iwakuni on the southern trip of Honshu Island, Japan. They were from 88, 205 and 209 Squadrons which rotated on a monthly basis. The only other involvement was a number of individual pilots, 12 or so, who were seconded to the 4th Fighter Interceptor Wing of the US 5th Air Force. These were mostly Sabre trained pilots who had been flying Canadair built Sabres supplied under MDAP and were familiar with the type. Additionally some RAF pilots flew with the Royal Australian Air Force Meteors involved in Korea.
Two flights of No 656 Squadron, RAF Army Air Corps, (Not a separate Force till 1957), Nos 1903 Flight and 1913 Flight with 6 Auster AOP6 and 1 Auster T7 and 5 Auster AOP6 and 1 Auster 7 respectively were based in Korea mostly for recce and artillery spotting. In theatre a Cessna L-19 Bird Dog, 14754, was loaned to 656 Squadron. Peripheral involvement by Transport Command saw troops ferried to and from Japan.
Now the Fleet Air Arm involvement in Korea was very much more significant and the Commonwealth Air Forces involvement was also much greater. But for the RAF that was about it.
Cheers, Sandy.
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  #5  
Old 02-01-2018, 13:46
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Got it wrong AGAIN, Apologies to Transport Command, especially 48 Squadron who, with its Hastings troop carriers, flew troops into Pusan, not so 'peripheral'! Mea Culpa.
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  #6  
Old 05-01-2018, 21:14
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

First off, sorry for the late reply everyone, the new year has started off quite busy for me.

Gwyrosydd: Thank you for the link. That website is full of information that I may find useful later on.

Sandy: I'm looking for the lists of aircraft that the RAF had in active service (or in reserve) in the 1950s. In reference to the Korean War, it seems like the British armed forces did not contribute as much as one would expect a world power to do so. Was there more significance placed on the Malayan Emergency than the Korean War (in the eyes of the British government)?
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  #7  
Old 07-01-2018, 12:03
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Hi Sarky,
You are absolutely correct that the RAF was stretched with the Malaysian situation and many squadrons were flying there in a wide variety of aircraft. The 1950's saw a great change in the types in use and the start of the decade is best understood - in my opinion - by the range of types which were either at Odiham or took part in the fly pasts there at HM Queen Elizabeth 11 Coronation Review of the RAF in 1953. I have lists for a few years of the different RAF Commands and types in use but that would require about 30 scans to get it into the forum. As you have no doubt surmised I am trying to get you to narrow down the scope of your request. Do you have a particular interest in Fighter Command, Bomber Command, Transport Command, Training Command, Far East etc. It was the decade when Spitfires were still in use at the start and Lightnngs were displayed at Farnborough in 1958. (No change there then!!!) The main bomber was the Lincoln at the start of the decade but Victors and Vulcans were in service from 1957. Nor really a cop out and I will undertake to try and get data for you but it is really a very large subject.
Cheers Sandy
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  #8  
Old 07-01-2018, 12:28
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Hi again Sarky,
A bit unfair on the other services. It was only the RAF that had a limited involvement. The Army sent very many units to support the UN Policing action. Where I live the local Regiment is the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and they were cut up badly during Korea. The US Marine withdrawal from the reservoir to Pusan included UK Marines, everyone knows of the Glorious Glosters action etc etc, there were many tank units operating Churchill, Cromwell and the tank most feared by the Chinese the Centurion. UK Royal Artillery and logistics units etc etc.
The Royal Navy, with very limited Commonwealth and other support, operated as Task Group 96.8 otherwise known as the West Coast Support Group. At various times throughout the 1950 - 1953 period this saw 4 light fleet carriers of the Colossus class with support from a fifth and HMS Unicorn. 12 different FAA squadrons operating Seafires (1), Fireflies (6) and Sea Furies (5) flew from their decks and flew many thousands of sorties. They were supported by 6 6" gunned cruisers, 7 fleet destroyers, 14 frigates and a modest supply train of 23 assorted depot ships, command ships, oilers, hospital ship etc.
For a bankrupt nation where rationing was still not fully over this was a major commitment.
Cheers, Sandy
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  #9  
Old 07-01-2018, 21:57
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy McAuslan View Post

Hi again Sarky,

The Royal Navy, with very limited Commonwealth and other support, operated as Task Group 96.8 otherwise known as the West Coast Support Group. At various times throughout the 1950 - 1953 period this saw 4 light fleet carriers of the Colossus class with support from a fifth and HMS Unicorn. 12 different FAA squadrons operating Seafires (1), Fireflies (6) and Sea Furies (5) flew from their decks and flew many thousands of sorties. They were supported by 6 6" gunned cruisers, 7 fleet destroyers, 14 frigates and a modest supply train of 23 assorted depot ships, command ships, oilers, hospital ship etc.
For a bankrupt nation where rationing was still not fully over this was a major commitment.
Cheers, Sandy
Sandy:

Please allow me to take great exception to the comment I have "Bolded" - to a humble colonial such as myself, it reeks of arrogance!

Despite having downsized significantly from its WWII size (from 90,000 personnel in mid-1945 to 9,000 in early 1950), Canada provided a force of a minimum of three destroyers in Korean waters throughout the Korean War:

http://www.kvacanada.com/cdnforces_navy.htm

The RAN also made a significant commitment:

https://anzacportal.dva.gov.au/histo...avy-korean-war

as did the RNZN:

http://navymuseum.co.nz/1945-1975-ro...avy-and-korea/

To quote from the RNZN link above:

"New Zealand’s involvement in the Korean War lasted three years and involved six Loch class frigates HMNZS Pukaki, Tutira, Rotoiti, Taupo, Hawea and Kaniere. It involved about half the manpower of the Royal New Zealand Navy – approximately 1350 officers and ratings. "

My father served two tours in Korea as Commanding Officer of HMCS Sioux and I am sure he would be less than happy to hear her contribution labelled as "limited support."

Apologies Sarky as this is way off the topic of your thread ... but I just can't let Sandy's statement go unchallenged!
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Last edited by Scatari : 07-01-2018 at 23:21.
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  #10  
Old 07-01-2018, 23:07
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

In some detail then.
RAN Sydney - Light fleet carrier was in t6heatre Sept 51 to Jan 52
RaN Bataan - Australian Tribal Class DD June 50 to June 51 and again Jan 1952 to September 1952.
RAN Warramunga sister to above August 1950 to August 1951 and January 1952 to August 1952.
RAN Anzac Battle Class DD - August 1951 to Oct 1951 and Sept 1952 to June 1953
RAN Tobruk her sister Sept 1951 to Feb 1952
and May 1953 to Oct 1953.
Fpur of the RAN Bay Class Frigates - Condamine, Culgoa, Marchion and Shoalhaven each did a single period off Korea.

The Royal Canadian Navy Had six Tribal Class DD which all operated off Korea. Athabaskan 3 tours, Cayuga 3 tours Huron 3 tours and Iroquois 3 tours. Haida and Nootka each two tours.
Crusader - RCN DD did a single tour, Sioux did two tours.
The Royal New Zealand Navy contributed 6 Loch Class Frigates of which Hawea amd Rotoiti did two tours and the rest one. That is Kaniere, Pukaki, Taupo and Tutira.
Approximately 15 additional ships from other UN nations also operated withn TF 96.8.
In my initial comments I had meant to refer only to major warships. I hope you will accept that the above fairly reflects the extent of Non RN and USN involvement.
I never intend to undervalue the contributions of any force and I apologise for any offence which I may have unintentionally given. Perhaps it would have been more relevant to detail the RAAF Meteor's in Korea or the South African F-51Ds and Sabres s9ince Sarkys request related to aircraft.
Sandy
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  #11  
Old 08-01-2018, 03:18
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BlackBat242 BlackBat242 is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy McAuslan
In my initial comments I had meant to refer only to major warships.
I'd consider the RAN's only carrier at the time (and of the same type as those of the RN involved) to be a "major warship"!

That carrier also returned to Korea - a bit later (and after the RAN had picked up a second, leased, carrier - HMS Vengeance, handed over Dec. 1952, and returned Oct. 1955).

Sydney left Fremantle on 27 October 1953 for a second deployment to Korea, to support United Nations enforcement of the July 1953 armistice. Sydney remained in Asian waters until May 1954 undertaking routine patrols along the demilitarised zone established by the armistice punctuated with visits to Hong Kong and Japan.

In between her earlier KW patrol and the latter deployment, Sydney was off Australia’s north-west coast to provide airborne security for Operation HURRICANE – a British atomic bomb test aimed at measuring the effects of a hypothetical nuclear attack by mine or torpedo on a British harbour. Sydney’s aircraft were involved in enforcing the prohibited area around the tests and the detonation, which took place on 3 October 1952, the ‘mushroom’ cloud being visible from the carrier some 97 kilometres distant.
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  #12  
Old 08-01-2018, 09:25
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

I looked only at the three years when the conflict was active and hence I listed only the period when HMAS Sydney was in theatre during that time. Her record was admirable and for the 64 days she was there she averaged 55 sorties a day, expended 1,402 bombs, 6,359 rockets and 269,249 rounds of 20 mm cannon. She operated a mix of Sea Fury and Firefly aircraft and the squadrons deployed were 808 and 805 flying Sea Fury FB.11, and 817 flying Firefly Mk 5.
One pilot was unfortunately killed on 5/11/51 and another on 7/12 1951. Two more crew were 'missing'.
Not to ignore, again, the RCN losses they were 3 dead (including one crew member who unfortunately died of wounds) on RCN Iroquois when a shell hit B gun on 2nd October 1952. Total RAN wounded wasgiven as 6 and RCN as 11. (figures from History of the UN Forces in Korean War, Vol V!. 1977)
The RN 'butchers bill' was 61 dead or missing and 87 wounded.
Again I wish to apologise unreservedly to anyone who was offended by my earlier po0sts.
Sandy
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  #13  
Old 08-01-2018, 18:33
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy McAuslan View Post

Again I wish to apologise unreservedly to anyone who was offended by my earlier po0sts.
Sandy
Apology accepted Sandy - thank you.
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  #14  
Old 09-01-2018, 12:23
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Hi Tim,
Some published info on HMCS Sioux in Korea. Plus my favourite photo of her just after Korea but still in Korea rig - I think.
Sandy
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  #15  
Old 09-01-2018, 12:28
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

This will have the attachments - I hope!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Document (21).jpg (660.4 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg Document (22).jpg (537.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Document (23).jpg (484.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg Document (24.jpg (260.6 KB, 15 views)
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  #16  
Old 09-01-2018, 12:49
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

With my scanner up and running back to the original request. Here is a 'snapshot' of RAF Fighter Command as at 1950. - I hope!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Document (fc50).jpg (312.4 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Document (fc50b).jpg (295.7 KB, 10 views)
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  #17  
Old 09-01-2018, 13:13
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Now Fighter Command 1955 and 1960. Compare 74 Squadron's kit in 1960 with what 60 Squadron was flying in 1950. Max speed Spit 16 - 404 mph, highest speed Lightning F1 Mach 2 plus. (According to John Rawlings book Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft. I have, however, reason to believe that in service Mach 1.8 was not to be exceeded in peacetime unless in absolute emergency.)
Does this help?
Cheers, Sandy.
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File Type: jpg Document (fc55).jpg (642.6 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg Document (1fc60).jpg (417.9 KB, 13 views)
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  #18  
Old 10-01-2018, 13:50
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Hi Tim,
Got the helio. It was an H-5H-Sl. The helicopter immediately before it on the production line still exists and a photo is attached - I hope.
Cheers,
Sandy
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File Type: jpg h-5_49-1999.jpg (53.7 KB, 15 views)
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  #19  
Old 10-01-2018, 20:04
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy McAuslan View Post
Hi Tim,
Got the helio. It was an H-5H-Sl. The helicopter immediately before it on the production line still exists and a photo is attached - I hope.
Cheers,
Sandy
Apologies to all - Sandy and I have been corresponding via PM on the subject of HMCS Sioux's participation in the Korean War and that correspondence has overflowed onto this thread.

For anyone interested, the helo shown is the same type as the one which landed aboard Sioux during her second Korean deployment in 1952.

Sorry Sarky!
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  #20  
Old 11-01-2018, 04:05
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Nice posts, Sandy - I'm wondering about something.

You mention "John Rawlings book Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft" - was that perhaps the source of the tables you attached earlier?
If not, where did you get them?
Curious minds would like to know.
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  #21  
Old 11-01-2018, 10:37
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Yes. That series comes from that source. I don't know of any better collected source. I have the Air-Britain series, for example AA-BB, which details every aircraft ordered and delivered to the British Armed Forces but that takes up a whole shelf of my bookcase! If anyone has a specific type or a specific aircraft on which they would like information I will try my best.
Sandy
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  #22  
Old 11-01-2018, 21:11
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Hi Sarky,
First lists compiled from Coastal Support and special squadrons of the RAF by John D R Rawlings. Hopefully I will be able to do the next 200 squadrons and Bomber Command tomorrow. I have also attached a scan to show the extent of RAF involvement in the Malaysian Emergency which concluded in 1959,
Sandy
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File Type: jpg Firedog.jpg (476.6 KB, 12 views)
Attached Files
File Type: xls RAF1.xls (11.5 KB, 3 views)
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  #23  
Old 12-01-2018, 04:16
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BlackBat242 BlackBat242 is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Excellent, thanks.
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  #24  
Old 12-01-2018, 15:58
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Next series of units and aircraft.
Training took place at Training Units and Operational Conversion Units. These often had a 'shadow' operational squadron number but regulations prohibited the marking up of aircraft in the traditional colours of these Squadron numbers. There were 8 potential Squadron Numbers allocated in 1956 to Advanced Fighter training units. These numbers were 122, 124, 127, 129, 131, 137, 165 and 176 Squadrons.
One left to come but I will have to convert format before it will download.
Sandy
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File Type: jpg Bombers1950.jpg (449.5 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg Bombers1955.jpg (404.9 KB, 4 views)
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File Type: xls RAF1.xls (17.5 KB, 1 views)
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  #25  
Old 12-01-2018, 16:09
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: RAF Aircraft Inventories?

Hi Sarky, I have reduced the number of scans by incorporating the data into Excel spreadsheets. All errors and omissions are mine. So sorry for them.
The Excel workbooks have generally more than one sheet.
Cheers, Sandy.
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File Type: xls Bombers1960.xls (8.5 KB, 7 views)
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