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  #1  
Old 12-01-2018, 14:52
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Default Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

During my use of the Forum whilst perusing various points of interest I have asked many questions about various topics and been rewarded by replies from your good selves from the perspective of those who either used or read about the
item concerned .....there-bye satisfying my curiosity .....for which I am very grateful for both the time taken and the detail given , and not having had the benefit of Serving in the Navy , had no inkling of the facts

As my interests broadened and the variety of topic changed I like many others became more and more fascinated at both the breadth and depth of knowledge out there .

Like many others I suspect I delved deeper to gain a clearer understanding of the subject matter and slowly but surely built up a basic grasp of many things , and over the last nine years have slowly built up sections of knowledge in the form of books and DVD's to assist me


Being dyslexic this has often been hard work and not wishing to show my stupidity to my new found friends , some gaps were inevitable


To give greater depth I purchased copies of second hand books to both spread the cost and find those historic facts not always transferred to more up to date publications

I have to say that with the possible exception of "Jackspeak" I have learnt many parallel facts that I was not looking for at the time .

One of the most rewarding purchases thus far must be "The Manuals of Seamanship" and in the case of my interest in model scale ship building the section on" Ship Construction" in the later sections of Vol 3 . from which I have derived a greater insite as to why ships are fashioned and to what purpose they serve far better and in greater detail than the other volumes of books specifically on Warships Construction ...

The Detail and reasons for their construction are immense as is the details in this modest version display's
Has anyone else found these books of great benefit[ other than for pressing flowers ] and who would have held /used these informative volumes on board a Naval Warship or did everyone buy a copy please
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Old 13-01-2018, 11:51
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

When I joined the 'Fire Brigade', my Station Officer had an old Fire Brigade Manual from around 1900. There were instructions on steamers, and quite a lot on rigging! Everything leaned heavily towards Seamanship as most Firemen were ex Mariners.
My favourite was how to 'Manoeuvre a motor vehicle'. Went something like this. 'when wishing to alter your course, ease the way off her, then Port or Starboard your helm!
Sounds abit like me when the wife is driving!.
Jim
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Old 13-01-2018, 15:49
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

Ahhh a kindred spirit it would seem Jim .........thanks for replying to my question

I found it fascinating to read about why ships sub sections were designed a certain way and that buoyancy was important both above and below the water line and how this is affected by compartmentation , and the use of watertight doors , and their distribution throughout at strategic points of the ship ., the installation of "flats" relative to the keel and their choice as stores , forward collision bulkheads , lightning holes in plates , double hulls , double bulkheads to ensure separation from water tight spaces used for storage of water .....as against fuel storage adjacent to the water storage .....all in the double hull cavity.
What surprised me even more was in most cases cross reference to submarines ......which I thought might have been a subject in its own right

The lining of lightning holes to deter fractures under load and the spreading of loads in confined spaces that don't lend themselves to load bearing surfaces ....
...I'm sorry but finding such a wealth of information in such an unlikely place was like striking gold to me

To ask the same question of those in the know on the Forum .....

1/ who would have had these on board .?....or
2/ was there a central ships library where such reference books were held ?
3/.or who would have been expected to purchase these books ?......
4/ or was everyone issued with these and expected to read them .?.....
5/ or was it CPO's or PO's only ?.
6/ Officers only ?

As I said earlier the three volumes hold differing information on specific subjects
there again they are issued by the Admiralty under crown copyright from specified suppliers

Sorry for all this but the books I have are in some respects missing pages and been written on as notes and removed so again forgive my curiosity please

Did you use / own these ......if so why please
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Old 13-01-2018, 16:27
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

There wasn't a library as such but each department held Books of Reference (BR's) for their department. As Electrical Office Writer, I had several technical books of reference, for equipment fitted in the ship, which I kept in the Electrical Office (shared with the Engineer Department). The Electrical Officer had a safe in his cabin in which Confidential books of reference were kept. It might have been the case that Manuals of Seamanship were issued to Seaman ratings on an individual basis. I joined in 1963 and, just prior to that, all electrical ratings got a personal issue of BR 157, which was the Electrical Ratings Handbook. I managed to come by one during my service, but most of the equipment in it was obsolete, but much of it was still relevant, especially for my first two ships, which were powered by DC (Direct Current).
Keeping abreast of amendments to BR's was a pain and each quarter would see a rainforest of amendments arrive. That was ok for BR's which were loose leaf and page for page replacements were made, but quite a few were bound volumes and scissors and glue were used to paste the amended paragraph in the margin

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Old 13-01-2018, 17:33
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

Bit in common there Jim..........WE Office Writer! Keeping technical DCI's up to date when amendments came in to land, was like painting Forth Bridge!
In my case, I was a year as Acting GOW and when we finally got a qualified GOW drafted to us, I spent the rest of the commission as WE Writer.....and a good number it was too!

Was is usual for a PO.El. to do job of Office Writer? Before I took over, PO.El. Ted O'Brian did the job, I presume it was more cost effective to use an AB such as yours truly, who merely copy typed technical stuff.........hadn't the faintest idea what I was typing actually MEANT!

Yes Seaman had Vol.1 Seamanship Manuel issued when under training...I think Vol.2 was a voluntary purchase.
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Old 13-01-2018, 18:05
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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Bit in common there Jim..........WE Office Writer!

Was is usual for a PO.El. to do job of Office Writer? Before I took over, PO.El. Ted O'Brian did the job, I presume it was more cost effective to use an AB such as yours truly, who merely copy typed technical stuff.........hadn't the faintest idea what I was typing actually MEANT!

Yes Seaman had Vol.1 Seamanship Manuel issued when under training...I think Vol.2 was a voluntary purchase.
I did the office writer course at the end of my killicks course and did the touch typing part at Semaphore Tower in Pompey Dockyard. I was drafted to Undaunted as office writer, Pompey Fleet Maintenance Group as Office Writer then to Exmouth, as a killick office writer. I picked up my rate onboard Exmouth and continued doing it until another killick greenie volunteered to do it. I then changed to the Weapons (guns and mortars) section, but still got collared for typing jobs.

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Old 13-01-2018, 20:16
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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Originally Posted by Vegaskip View Post
When I joined the 'Fire Brigade', my Station Officer had an old Fire Brigade Manual from around 1900. There were instructions on steamers, and quite a lot on rigging! Everything leaned heavily towards Seamanship as most Firemen were ex Mariners.
My favourite was how to 'Manoeuvre a motor vehicle'. Went something like this. 'when wishing to alter your course, ease the way off her, then Port or Starboard your helm!
Sounds abit like me when the wife is driving!.
Jim
Adding to the sometimes nautical theme, many very early motor vehicles did not have a "steering wheel", but rather had a tiller bar - much like a small boat!

Tiller steering of 1904 Cyklonette (Hersteller: Cyklon Maschinenfabrik m.b.H., Berlin Ost, Alt-Boxhagen):
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Old 13-01-2018, 20:24
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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Bit in common there Jim..........WE Office Writer! Keeping technical DCI's up to date when amendments came in to land, was like painting Forth Bridge!
In my case, I was a year as Acting GOW and when we finally got a qualified GOW drafted to us, I spent the rest of the commission as WE Writer.....and a good number it was too!

Was is usual for a PO.El. to do job of Office Writer? Before I took over, PO.El. Ted O'Brian did the job, I presume it was more cost effective to use an AB such as yours truly, who merely copy typed technical stuff.........hadn't the faintest idea what I was typing actually MEANT!

Yes Seaman had Vol.1 Seamanship Manuel issued when under training...I think Vol.2 was a voluntary purchase.
I was an avionics* Sgt (E-5) when I was loaned for a couple of months to the tech pub office in our intermediate-level maintenance squadron (we provided support for some 6 flying squadrons).

Fortunately, all of our manuals were in loose-leaf binders.

It was interesting in 1988 to see that the manual for the radar-altimeter in the C-130s was still listed as a "confidential" publication** - despite the original date on the manual being 1946!


* aircraft electronics

** lowest level of security classification, requiring the manual to be kept in a safe or secure & guarded room, and only signed out for short periods of time by someone with a security clearance.
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Old 13-01-2018, 22:17
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

Thank you all for your responses lads , which answer part of the question and in individual cases in their rolls .....all the question , so many thanks there .

It was a sobering thought that in the preceding section of volume 3 where it went into great detail about how to abandon ship ,who should be armed to qwell any panicking whilst adrift , how to survive at sea and how to treat ailments whilst at sea , provisions on a lifeboat / raft and how to collect rainwater , calorie needs , minimum water requirements , exercise and so on,Sea anchors and wether or not to deploy them ,whether to set sail or drift once clear of a foundering vessel .......

How to survive if marooned on an island and what fish to eat / avoid , how to treat hypothermia , etc ....all fascinating to read , but again beggars the question of....... who should have read this.... prior to such an awful event 0curing ?
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Old 16-01-2018, 21:12
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

Still in Volume three..... I came across the mentions of manuals issued on ship ....can you identify them for me please [those who worked in the writers section perhaps ]

1/ Engineering manuals ..Are these spercific item manuals provided by the items source / manufacturer?
2/Ships Book ? is this some form of ledger or accountancy schedule perhaps ?

Further on in this section reference is made to panels sweating being sprayed with Limpet asbestos lagging or granulated Cork to absorb moisture collected on these panels which is then coated with water based paint / distempers .....

I wonder what health and safety would have to say about their use nowadays in the light of proven asbestosis of the lungs ....a case of the cure being the killer

General question if I may please .....

the more I look into these volumes it is becoming evident to me that these documents ...whilst informative ....could be the building blocks used to educate the up and coming junior officers to gain a better understanding of the vessel they serve in prior to sitting either verbal or written examinations to determine their suitability for advancement as no one has said that they are or might be used for training individuals seeking advancement in any specific department

Surprised my friend Harry hasn't passed an opinion so far as he seems to have a grip on most topics in the Navy bless him unless of course its on a need to know basis
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Old 16-01-2018, 23:07
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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General question if I may please .....

the more I look into these volumes it is becoming evident to me that these documents ...whilst informative ....could be the building blocks used to educate the up and coming junior officers to gain a better understanding of the vessel they serve in prior to sitting either verbal or written examinations to determine their suitability for advancement as no one has said that they are or might be used for training individuals seeking advancement in any specific department


Surprised my friend Harry hasn't passed an opinion so far as he seems to have a grip on most topics in the Navy bless him unless of course its on a need to know basis

In the Manual of Seamanship Volume 1 B.R. 67(1) 1951 (issued to me at RNTE Ganges, Shotley), the Preface reads as follows:-

--------------------------

The Manual of Seamanship is divided into three volumes.

Volume I, herewith, is intended to be used as a text-book for Naval Cadets and Seaman Boys who are under training at shore establishments, and Volume II by junior officers, and by Petty Officers and men desiring to qualify for advancement.

Both these volumes will also serve as books of reference for junior officers and senior ratings, and it is hoped that they will also prove useful and instructive to other professional seamen, yachtsmen, and all instructors of seamanship.

Lists of questions on the information given in each chapter have been included as an apendix to each of Volumes I and II, to give candidates for examination some idea of what they are expected to know and of the type of question they may be asked.

Volume III comprises information on the more advanced aspects of seamanship, and is intended as a book of reference for seamen of experience.

----------------------------------------------

There you have it Ivor.

Having never availed myself of a Volume III, I used to enjoy (nay - rely upon) the input of forum member ap1(Andy) when needed.

Hope the info in the Preface of Volume I is of some help.


Little h

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Old 17-01-2018, 16:11
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

Thanks Harry you have never let me down yet mate ,thanks for taking the time to reply to my question .

That has helped in dicernin its intended use ..........and thought dear Harry would know as apart from being an avid follower of facts , as soon as I saw the submarine references I felt sure he would have read some if not all these very informative details .

I hasen to add that these manuals are Full of useful information that can be bought second hand on " Amazing " very reasonably ........all three volumes purchased individually amount to about 20.00 which given the contents are worth treble that to anyone with a keen interest in the RN and its workings ...

How many of you out there have still got their copies I wonder
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Old 17-01-2018, 19:11
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

Ivor:

Of possible interest, there is also a "sister" set of publications ("Admiralty Manual of Navigation") which do for navigation what the seamanship series does for that specialty.

I have both sets (though more recent editions than 1951!) and found them essential reference materials during my early days as a seaman officer ... and still referred to them from time to time during my later years at sea.
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Old 18-01-2018, 12:42
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

I have a 1938 edition of the MofS which would certainly have been issued (or more likely purchased) by Cadet Lewin at that time when he joined as a special entry cadet. I don't recall there being further volumes then, I haven't looked at it for ages but I do recall it has a fixation for knots. I remember dad making perfect Turks Heads round the handles of most of the garden tools in my summers as a child (when he wasn't the other side of the World)
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Old 18-01-2018, 15:08
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

I remember being fascinated by the many illustrations, the one that I can still recall is the transportation of a large anchor suspended from spars lashed between a couple of whalers.
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Old 18-01-2018, 18:39
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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Ivor:

Of possible interest, there is also a "sister" set of publications ("Admiralty Manual of Navigation") which do for navigation what the seamanship series does for that specialty.

I have both sets (though more recent editions than 1951!) and found them essential reference materials during my early days as a seaman officer ... and still referred to them from time to time during my later years at sea.
Thanks for that Time I will start searching for them
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Old 18-01-2018, 18:41
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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I have a 1938 edition of the MofS which would certainly have been issued (or more likely purchased) by Cadet Lewin at that time when he joined as a special entry cadet. I don't recall there being further volumes then, I haven't looked at it for ages but I do recall it has a fixation for knots. I remember dad making perfect Turks Heads round the handles of most of the garden tools in my summers as a child (when he wasn't the other side of the World)
Tim L
Thanks Time , I remember years ago making a monkeys fist , which whilst usable wasn't as good or as round as the illustration ....still practice makes perfect they say
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Old 18-01-2018, 18:43
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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I remember being fascinated by the many illustrations, the one that I can still recall is the transportation of a large anchor suspended from spars lashed between a couple of whalers.
Thanks Phill , yes i noticed that and thought I would rather be in another boat observing that than in it as the likely hood of capsizing looked all to real for my liking
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Old 18-01-2018, 21:38
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

I have Volumn 1 and 2 and a chit for volume 3 that expired 5 years ago.
I still browse them occasionally but nowadays ships have their own self prepared seamanship data logs with all information on evolutions carried out on-board.

Yesterday I was given the keys to an old library on base that has been closed down for years. My manager states the buiding is up for consideration for demolition. Failing that, it will handed over to the reserves. Everything inside will be tossed out. I went inside to have a look at the small section of books left and was amazed what was there. Naval ordnance books from 1907, 1908. 1912 and 1915. Took a couple of quick snaps. I've put my hand of for them.
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Old 18-01-2018, 21:48
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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I have Volumn 1 and 2 and a chit for volume 3 that expired 5 years ago.
I still browse them occasionally but nowadays ships have their own self prepared seamanship data logs with all information on evolutions carried out on-board.

Yesterday I was given the keys to an old library on base that has been closed down for years. My manager states the buiding is up for consideration for demolition. Failing that, it will handed over to the reserves. Everything inside will be tossed out. I went inside to have a look at the small section of books left and was amazed what was there. Naval ordnance books from 1907, 1908. 1912 and 1915. Took a couple of quick snaps. I've put my hand of for them.
Looks like you are going to have to build an extension on your house for your new library

Jim
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Old 19-01-2018, 20:00
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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I have Volumn 1 and 2 and a chit for volume 3 that expired 5 years ago.
I still browse them occasionally but nowadays ships have their own self prepared seamanship data logs with all information on evolutions carried out on-board.

Yesterday I was given the keys to an old library on base that has been closed down for years. My manager states the buiding is up for consideration for demolition. Failing that, it will handed over to the reserves. Everything inside will be tossed out. I went inside to have a look at the small section of books left and was amazed what was there. Naval ordnance books from 1907, 1908. 1912 and 1915. Took a couple of quick snaps. I've put my hand of for them.
You lucky Sod , if I wasn't so far away I'd camp outside and grab everything in site .
You must have thought you'd died and gone to heaven
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Old 19-01-2018, 20:17
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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Ivor:

Of possible interest, there is also a "sister" set of publications ("Admiralty Manual of Navigation") which do for navigation what the seamanship series does for that specialty.

I have both sets (though more recent editions than 1951!) and found them essential reference materials during my early days as a seaman officer ... and still referred to them from time to time during my later years at sea.


Thank you Tim , I have found both volumes and purchased them separately at a very reasonable cost [ again second hand] and look forward to immersing myself in them in a couple of days if Amazing are up to their usual speed .

Can't thank you enough for putting me on to these which I'm sure will aid this addled brain of mine to at least grasp the basics of navigation even though I will never risk anyones life in using them for the purpose for which they were designed ......again my thanks
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Old 19-01-2018, 20:37
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

I 'm sure most of you think i'm nuts , but I find great enjoyment in these type of books and the reason for their publication , and whilst by no stretch of the imagination can I be accused of being a book worm , and unless I find a section in there that really focuses my interest , I often find that a brief browse through these reveals lots of items discussed in the past to which I could not get involved in nor add any useful input , the topic and system by which we use the information is fascinating [ especially to someone who found maths and algebra a mental challenge as a teenager ]

I recall our dear friend Rupert recommending the book" Longitude " by Dave Sobel a couple of years ago and was truly a case in point , and read it cover to cover and thoroughly enjoying all it taught me ......so again my thanks Rupert
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Old 19-01-2018, 20:42
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

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Thank you Tim , I have found both volumes and purchased them separately at a very reasonable cost [ again second hand] and look forward to immersing myself in them in a couple of days if Amazing are up to their usual speed .

Can't thank you enough for putting me on to these which I'm sure will aid this addled brain of mine to at least grasp the basics of navigation even though I will never risk anyones life in using them for the purpose for which they were designed ......again my thanks
You are more than welcome Ivor - always glad to help.
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Old 19-01-2018, 21:31
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Default Re: Manuals of Seamanship 1-3 1951

Your both very kind and modest Tim ..... but as I say very grateful
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