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  #51  
Old 03-06-2017, 02:04
Brian Wentzell's Avatar
Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Gentlemen: I have read the PBO Report. It has been well put together and is not that difficult to understand. The report is based upon analysis of the experiences of the current destroyer programs in the United States and Australia as well as the previous Canadian Patrol Frigate program. The 61 Billion Canadian Dollar figure is the estimated costs for 15 frigates and destroyers to be built between 2021 and 2041. It includes not just the cost of the physical ship but also all installed equipment, spare parts, ammunition, project management oversight, shore support and training facilities and the like. The previous estimate of about 26 Billion Canadian Dollars did not include inflation through the lifespan of the build cycle and did not include the full range of acquisition costs.

Rather than to be alarmed, one should be relieved that the Parliamentary Budget Office has made the effort and taken the time to develop the report. Actually, much of this work started as a result of efforts to predict the costs of the Arctic and Offshore Patrol Vessels. Canada may have developed an analysis methodology that can be applied to both naval and coast guard shipbuilding plans now and in the future.

It will be interesting to see what is contained in the new defence policy to be issued on June 7, 2017.

Brian
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  #52  
Old 03-06-2017, 03:26
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wentzell View Post
Gentlemen: I have read the PBO Report. It has been well put together and is not that difficult to understand. The report is based upon analysis of the experiences of the current destroyer programs in the United States and Australia as well as the previous Canadian Patrol Frigate program. The 61 Billion Canadian Dollar figure is the estimated costs for 15 frigates and destroyers to be built between 2021 and 2041. It includes not just the cost of the physical ship but also all installed equipment, spare parts, ammunition, project management oversight, shore support and training facilities and the like. The previous estimate of about 26 Billion Canadian Dollars did not include inflation through the lifespan of the build cycle and did not include the full range of acquisition costs.

Rather than to be alarmed, one should be relieved that the Parliamentary Budget Office has made the effort and taken the time to develop the report. Actually, much of this work started as a result of efforts to predict the costs of the Arctic and Offshore Patrol Vessels. Canada may have developed an analysis methodology that can be applied to both naval and coast guard shipbuilding plans now and in the future.

It will be interesting to see what is contained in the new defence policy to be issued on June 7, 2017.

Brian
I too read the full report and was impressed with its approach and it's comparisons with the Arleigh Bourke programme and the Hobart programme.
The $61b will always get attention but if the costs are reduced to 2017 dollars it is comparable to both those programmes.

The cost comparisons between ships from various navies is notoriously difficult and to compare like with like from a headline figure is impossible. eg the Canadian figure includes somewhere between $180-$212 million per ship depending on the Missile outfit, thats over $3 billion added cost in 2017 dollars. Inflation, currency movement, labour cost increases and revamped infrastructure are some of the extras included and not often considered by the headline commentators.
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  #53  
Old 13-06-2017, 14:54
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Pusser509 Pusser509 is online now
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

An interesting first instalment on the experience of the precursor Canadian Patrol Frigate (CPF) Project at the link below. The publication is a quarterly so there will be a lag in the arrival of the next one.

I worked for Ed Healey when he was CPF Project Manager. He later went on to be promoted Rear Admiral and was the Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel) responsible for overall DND procurement. A straight shooter, not prone to hyperbole.

http://www.navalassoc.ca/wp-content/...-2017-Web-.pdf
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  #54  
Old 13-06-2017, 22:00
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Export design for Canada ? :-

https://twitter.com/Gabriel64869839/...43067923951616
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  #55  
Old 15-06-2017, 01:27
Brian Wentzell's Avatar
Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Gruntfuttock: The CSC will be a foreign design as there is no intent to do a Canadian design.

Brian
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  #56  
Old 15-06-2017, 08:23
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

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Originally Posted by Brian Wentzell View Post
Gruntfuttock: The CSC will be a foreign design as there is no intent to do a Canadian design.

Brian
This is just one export variation of the UK's T26 programme, so it is a foreign design. It might say BAE Canada for PR purposes, but then you would expect it to. Makes it more acceptable to the media, and relates more to Canadian business. It will after all be built in Canada if it wins the contract, as will any other foreign design.
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  #57  
Old 28-06-2017, 23:17
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

The latest:

(From CBC News)

Bidder urges overhaul of design tender in $60B navy frigate program

"Canada's plan to buy an off-the-shelf design for the navy's new frigates faces a "very high risk of failure" unless the Liberal government rewrites its proposed requirements, one of the bidders has told the shipyard running the competition.

Documents obtained by CBC News show the unidentified company, which is bidding to supply the design and help with the $60-billion construction program, has warned the plan is more complex than initially advertised by the government.
"

Complete article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frig...lems-1.4181542

The more I read about this programme, the more I am concerned that Irving is being allowed to have far too much influence. It would appear that they, not the navy, are defining the requirement - whatever happened to the days when the navy told a shipyard what the navy wanted, then the shipyard got on and built the ships required?
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  #58  
Old 29-06-2017, 09:22
XYZ XYZ is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

My be its to do with giving the shipyard ownership of what will be "its plan".

This would make it simpler to put the yard "on the hook" to deliver their plan on time and on budget.

The question is does the yard have the financial back up to actually shoulder that much risk.
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  #59  
Old 01-07-2017, 23:59
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

XYZ: The latest estimate for 15 ships is around CAD 60 Billion in then year dollars for delivery between 2025 and 2040+. The first three ships will likely be the AAW version. If government funding is properly in place, the shipyard will have no problem in arranging interim financing.
Brian
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  #60  
Old 02-07-2017, 06:31
XYZ XYZ is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wentzell View Post
XYZ: The latest estimate for 15 ships is around CAD 60 Billion in then year dollars for delivery between 2025 and 2040+. The first three ships will likely be the AAW version. If government funding is properly in place, the shipyard will have no problem in arranging interim financing.
Brian
Sorry for not being clear. The risk I wonder if they are trying to get the yard to accept is that of build cost overrun.

That's a very big liability given the way some military ship build contracts go.
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  #61  
Old 10-07-2017, 10:51
DAVID DUNLOP DAVID DUNLOP is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

BRITISH AEROSPACE ENGINEERING (BAE) TYPE 26 FRIGATE FOR CANADA


Gentllemen: There are several new designs for warships being presented to Canada and pros and cons with all of them. The Italians, Dutch, Germans & French each have Multi-Purpose Frigates either in service, under construction or planned that can “do the job”. The German Type 126 is particularly interesting, but there is only one design for Canada that offers a balanced “plug & play” approach, and that design is, without question, the BAE Type 26 Frigate. It is a modern 7000+ ton warship with just about all the capabilities Canada require’s in a Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC). This is a true CSC that will be centre for the future of the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) and would of course be built in Canada. You can easily configure it for both ASW, AAW and ASuW and “Canadianize” it as our defence needs dictate. It has a flight deck large enough to handle a CH-147 Chinook, with a hanger to fit our CH148 Cyclone helicopter. A reconfigurable mission bay can accept containerized loads to allow the rapid re-loading of the vessel. Such loads might include aid/rescue packages, underwater vehicles, boats or Naval Drones. The Type 26 is also infinitely adaptable. The RCN can “tweak” the design to cater its own developed sovereign requirements. Which is where, arguably, the Type 26 has the potential to excel. The major obstacle would be to decide what type of Combat System(CS) would integrate best with this ship to meet Canada’s Naval C4ISR requirements. It may only have one draw-back. Ice capability in our North. If it had a more strengthened hull however as the F126 Saxony German Class has, that would certainly go a long way to meet the strategic needs for a truely “Blue” Three Ocean Canadian Navy. It also works well within our own time-frame as BAE plans to start construction this year, about three years ahead of Canada’s future Naval requirements. I believe BAE has got this one right this time, and Canada need look no further.

Last edited by DAVID DUNLOP : 10-07-2017 at 11:18. Reason: Spelling
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  #62  
Old 10-07-2017, 14:27
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVID DUNLOP View Post

BRITISH AEROSPACE ENGINEERING (BAE) TYPE 26 FRIGATE FOR CANADA

there is only one design for Canada that offers a balanced “plug & play” approach
David:

Two questions if I may:

a. do you by any chance work for BAE? (You haven't filled out your profile so there is no indication there):

b. what is a "plug and play" approach?
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  #63  
Old 11-07-2017, 14:32
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

@David Dunlop.

It is very frustrating when you post the same article on different threads. You posted this on the T26 thread, how do you expect a reply (or perhaps you don't) when you jump all over the place.
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  #64  
Old 17-07-2017, 00:28
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post

@David Dunlop.

It is very frustrating when you post the same article on different threads. You posted this on the T26 thread, how do you expect a reply (or perhaps you don't) when you jump all over the place.
He seems to have disappeared!
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  #65  
Old 23-07-2017, 19:50
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Another bump in the road!

(From CBC News)

Intellectual property could be key as Canada and U.S. compete for frigate-building bids

"The U.S. navy is in the market for up to 20 patrol frigates in a multibillion-dollar program that one defence expert says could cut into Canada's plans for its own, more modest project.

Not only is the American program more lucrative, but Canada's intellectual property demands could put it at a further disadvantage in the fight for international bidders, says defence analyst Danny Lam.
"

Complete article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/us-f...gram-1.4216582
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  #66  
Old 23-07-2017, 19:58
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Tim: The Americans will be even more demanding for transfer of all of the foreign technology rights than Canada. I think this issue will not create risk for Canada.
Brian
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  #67  
Old 28-07-2017, 21:56
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

And the beat goes on - the latest blurb from the most inefficient and incompetent department in the federal government

(From CBC News)

Warship design competition on track, Public Works officials say

"Federal Public Works officials in charge of the multi-billion program to replace the navy's frigates said Friday they're confident they will receive more than enough bids from warship designers to complete the ongoing competition.

Lisa Campbell, the assistant deputy minister of defence and marine procurement, also attempted to lay to rest concern the federal government's demands for intellectual property data would some how scuttle the project — or drive some competitors away.

"We have good competition and we're really happy about that," Campbell told CBC News, during a round of one-on-one interviews with reporters on Friday.
"

Complete article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/navy...gram-1.4226768
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  #68  
Old 07-09-2017, 22:07
Scatari Scatari is offline
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$1.7 billion per ship - you must be joking!

(From the Ottawa Citizen)

Bids for Canada’s $62-billion warship program expected in by early November — with a chance for a do-over

"The Canadian government expects bids for a multi-billion dollar fleet of new warships to be submitted by early November, with a winner selected sometime next year. But bidders will be allowed a one-time free pass if their proposals initially don’t meet Canada’s requirements, giving them the opportunity to rejig their bids for the $62-billion program.

“They’ll get feedback on whether the bids meet all of Canada’s mandatory requirements,” Lisa Campbell, an assistant deputy minister at Public Services and Procurement Canada, said in an interview. “Where there are gaps they’ll be allowed one time — only once — to submit additional information to demonstrate that their bids meet our requirements.”

She said having that option improves the competition in the long run and removes past issues where firms had been punted immediately for not meeting all criteria
."

Complete article here:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/na...393/story.html
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  #69  
Old 08-09-2017, 14:25
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatari View Post
$1.7 billion per ship - you must be joking!

(From the Ottawa Citizen)

Bids for Canada’s $62-billion warship program expected in by early November — with a chance for a do-over

"The Canadian government expects bids for a multi-billion dollar fleet of new warships to be submitted by early November, with a winner selected sometime next year. But bidders will be allowed a one-time free pass if their proposals initially don’t meet Canada’s requirements, giving them the opportunity to rejig their bids for the $62-billion program.

“They’ll get feedback on whether the bids meet all of Canada’s mandatory requirements,” Lisa Campbell, an assistant deputy minister at Public Services and Procurement Canada, said in an interview. “Where there are gaps they’ll be allowed one time — only once — to submit additional information to demonstrate that their bids meet our requirements.”

She said having that option improves the competition in the long run and removes past issues where firms had been punted immediately for not meeting all criteria
."

Complete article here:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/na...393/story.html
So it's not really $1.7bn per ship taking everything into account. They are though some really eye watering figures being bandied about. I thought the UK got ripped off in defence deals, but this wins by a country mile. I wonder if they actually know the figure each ship will cost.

Quote (The program calls for the construction of 15 ships. The original budget for the CSC program was $26.2 billion, or $1.7 billion per ship for 15 ships. But parliamentary budget officer Jean-Denis Fréchette estimates the program will cost $61.82 billion, or $4.1 billion per ship — roughly 2.4 times more than originally budgeted.

This estimate includes costs resulting from development, production, spare parts, ammunition, training, government program management and upgrades to existing facilities. It does not include costs associated with the operation, maintenance and mid-life refurbishment of the ships, other than the spare parts that will be purchased when the ships are built, the PBO said in a June report.) Unquote
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  #70  
Old 08-09-2017, 22:01
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post

So it's not really $1.7bn per ship taking everything into account.
My comment re the $1.7 billion was meant to be tongue in cheek! Perhaps I should have used an emoticon, but I dislike those things intensely.
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  #71  
Old 22-09-2017, 01:21
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Will this farcical process never end?

(From CBC News)

New deadline announced for bids to build navy $60B fleet of new frigates

"Companies vying to design and help build the navy's new frigates will have until Nov. 17 to submit their bids, CBC News has learned.

The new deadline, established by the Public Services and Procurement Department, was communicated to the 12 pre-qualified companies on Wednesday, said defence industry sources familiar with the file.

The stakes are enormous.

The program is estimated to be worth $60 billion over the next few decades and the behind-the-scenes manoeuvring is meant to ensure that as many companies as possible remain in the race.
"

Complete article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frig...line-1.4300996
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  #72  
Old 26-09-2017, 13:37
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Tim: Only time will tell.
Brian
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  #73  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:49
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Congratulations Canada, your defence procurement dept has leaped to the top of the league, in the 'mindless bureaucracy' race. This is no mean feat when you consider the stiff opposition your up against.

Do not though rest upon your laurels, the UK MOD will fight until it regains the title.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...ally-1.4344433
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  #74  
Old 11-10-2017, 17:20
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
Congratulations Canada, your defence procurement dept has leaped to the top of the league, in the 'mindless bureaucracy' race. This is no mean feat when you consider the stiff opposition your up against.

Do not though rest upon your laurels, the UK MOD will fight until it regains the title.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...ally-1.4344433
Your congratulations accepted with huge embarrassment - agree that our current procurement process must be the most bureaucratically incompetent on the face of the planet.

As the article stated, the fallout from the F35 fiasco looms large in this whole process.
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