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  #101  
Old 19-01-2017, 07:04
greendragon greendragon is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Geo-military situation of the small three Baltic states seems to be difficult indeed.
Having had just couple of millions citizens each (many of them pure Russians) their armies must be small in size and can not be sufficiently armed regardless they would put 2% or 4 % GNP (also small) into their military.
They must rely on the Alliance and their only hope is NATO.

Poland is not waiting for repetition of 1939 when number of modern military equipment projects were implemented too late to be effectively used or did enter only the experimental status.
Just recently POL MoD informed that purchasing of about 100 F16 (older models, upgraded if good price is offered) from the USAF reserve stock is seriuosly considered.
They would replace ageing MIG 29s and Su 22/27s and would increased number of effective power of a/c to 150 F16.
The overall strenght of the Armed Forces goal is 150 000 (from present 100 000) - that would be mostly thanks the new built NG type units. They will be armed with light weapons but the most modern ones that would made the troops an effective force.
Initial contract on delivery to Polish Air Force 40 ea US JAASM missiles was supposed to be signed last December.
The MoD spokesman also announced that submarines will be built for the PN. I do not know with whom but certainly Poland will be pushing to be involved in construction.
Different more purchasing is planned .

Taxpayer money is being spent, some will return with new technologies in form of offsets, some will make POL industry moving faster, more people working for the defence/neighbouring sectors, more money on market. Probably not bad idea.

Anyway, do we have a better choice having a problematic power just across the fence ?

Regards,

GD
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  #102  
Old 19-01-2017, 07:41
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Marius_B Marius_B is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Morning 'greendragon'.

You can be proud of your country. From a military expenditure point of view Poland is certainly an example to many others in Nato. Poland is showing the willingness and preparedness in confronting whatever military challenges there may be ahead.
Yes, the Baltic states are small and they have small economies - they are small in every way. However, it is the principle that counts, the principle that if you are part of Nato you must contribute your fair share -

- firstly towards your own defence
- and in so doing strengthening the defence capabilities of the entire organisation.

The reality that only a small minority of Nato members are meeting the expenditure obligations is what is unacceptable. The incoming US President is going to tell all members exactly that.
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  #103  
Old 20-01-2017, 08:38
greendragon greendragon is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Marius, I agree with you fully.
I am waiting anxiously how may President D.Trump force other countries - especially some rich western countries which have got so much accustomed to live under US embrella and enjoying a safe distant from a possible conflict area to fulfill their commitments to the alliance.
This is worth an effort no doubt.
It is absolutely important that the US forces are lead country and make the cornerstones of the defence on the Eastern Flank. If needed they will use their overwhelming resources and will carry out the operations their own way thus providing unity of effert, goals, objectives etc. No caveats imposed from the outsiders or "we can not do this".

Regards,

GD
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  #104  
Old 20-01-2017, 13:26
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Good to see - but still a long way to go:

(From BBC News)

Germany spends more on defence but misses Nato target

"Germany plans to boost defence spending by nearly €2bn (£1.7bn; $2.1bn) this year - but it will remain far short of the NATO target."

Complete story here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38675522
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  #105  
Old 21-01-2017, 21:08
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Quote:
Originally Posted by greendragon View Post

I am waiting anxiously how may President D.Trump force other countries - especially some rich western countries which have got so much accustomed to live under US embrella and enjoying a safe distant from a possible conflict area to fulfill their commitments to the alliance.

GD
GD:

There are already signs in Canada that our defence spending may be increased as a result of Trump's comments about NATO freeloaders.

Sad (and embarrassing) that my country should have to be forced into this, but given that the average Canadian couldn't care less about defence, it is probably the only way that our defence spending will increase.

Our annual budget will be tabled in February - I am waiting with bated breath to see whether it will include any increase in defence spending.
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  #106  
Old 23-01-2017, 08:47
greendragon greendragon is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Dear Tim,

This is not aimed at the Canadians at all!
To be precise I think about some continental, yes this gives proper description, NATO countries.

1.The Canadians have taken their commitment to NATO very seriously by deploying a BN TG to an Eastern Flank Baltic country. What more positive can be done by this Nation and Gvt regardles of the Def Budget percentage?
2. The Canadians - might be unnoticed for many - have been always deployed first to the UN PKOs (PeaceKeeping Operations)
and other PSOs (Peace Support Operations). In case of the UN no other nation served with all the PKOs for tens of years with so significant number in men /equipment.
3.Last but not least I have served many times with Canadians in PKOs and always found them cooperative buddies, ready to support. So no bad words about the (my) Canadians
What I disliked dealing with them was that they served their guests Blue Label. Not a good stuff for a Polish delicate throat .

Regads,

GD

P.S.
To be frank and not leaving my Canadian friends without a pin in their rear - when Canda withdrew their a/c from operation against ISIS claiming it was too costly and beyond their budget I would rather choose forget quick this cheap excuse.
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  #107  
Old 23-01-2017, 16:45
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Quote:
Originally Posted by greendragon View Post
Dear Tim,

This is not aimed at the Canadians at all!
To be precise I think about some continental, yes this gives proper description, NATO countries.

1.The Canadians have taken their commitment to NATO very seriously by deploying a BN TG to an Eastern Flank Baltic country. What more positive can be done by this Nation and Gvt regardles of the Def Budget percentage?
2. The Canadians - might be unnoticed for many - have been always deployed first to the UN PKOs (PeaceKeeping Operations)
and other PSOs (Peace Support Operations)
. In case of the UN no other nation served with all the PKOs for tens of years with so significant number in men /equipment.
3.Last but not least I have served many times with Canadians in PKOs and always found them cooperative buddies, ready to support. So no bad words about the (my) Canadians
What I disliked dealing with them was that they served their guests Blue Label. Not a good stuff for a Polish delicate throat .

Regads,

GD

P.S.
To be frank and not leaving my Canadian friends without a pin in their rear - when Canda withdrew their a/c from operation against ISIS claiming it was too costly and beyond their budget I would rather choose forget quick this cheap excuse.
GD:

a. not sure what you are referring to as "not aimed at the Canadians at all?" Trump has made it clear that he is tired of the majority of NATO members free-loading off the US and Canada has certainly done that in recent years.

b. the bottom line is that dollars buy defence, small deployments of troops to Latvia do not

c. to start with, those were UN operations, not NATO. Secondly, that is all very much in the past. Our participation in peace keeping operations has been steadily declining since 1995. Our current contribution is less than 150 personnel, of whom 100 are police, not military.

d. not sure what being "cooperative buddies" has to do with inadequate funding for NATO?

e. not sure what "Blue Label" is?
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  #108  
Old 24-01-2017, 08:48
greendragon greendragon is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Tim,

This is MY not President Donald Trump view on the Canadians participation in NATO with money.
I am not going to be a critic of the Canadian defence budget for this is a Canadian matter but the fact the Canadians have beed deployed to the Eastern Flank is today the most crucial fact, should be appreciated and taken for account in any discussion.
The Canadian participation in PKOs, PSOs and NATO operations show that the Canadian Armed Forces whatever the budget is never avoided missions abroad while many other countries bith high def budget restrained themselves from any military mission.
The cooperative buddies means that as I saw it, they have been good, tough servicemen, cooperative and supporting regardless of the budget as differs from some other nations I saw well budgeted but not easy to cooperate .
Might be my memory doesn't serve me we well but one of the Canadian beer was called Blue Label.
And in this way I conclude my defence of the Canadians against the Canadian.

Regards,

GD
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  #109  
Old 26-01-2017, 07:14
greendragon greendragon is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

The NATO deployment of forces to the Eastern Flank sometimes may allow to think that Poland is sort of hopeless and not ready.

Certainly some gaps are existing (i.e. AA defence) but let me provide some figures about the Polish Armed Forces strenght:

-tanks: Leopard A4 142ea; A5(most modern) 105ea =247
PT 91 (Polish version of highly improved T72M) 232ea
T72 159 ea

- APC ; BMP 1268ea
KTO, wheeled, (Striker lookalike) 670ea

Armoured recovery vehs, different types 160 ea about

Recce vehs (different types) about 400 ea.

The list is long and might be seen in internet.
The above qquipment is distributed between two Mech Divisions, one Armoured, one ABN BDE, one ABN Cavalry BDE, Mountain BDE

All the armed forces consists of 100 000 officers and men (47,000 Land Forces).
New plans/Gvt regulations aim at about 50,000 NG soldiers, light infantry but modern weapons.
Interesting info is that about 2700 modern Spike AT (Polish-Israel deal) missiles were already delivered to the land forces.
About 2,3 million of small arms are in magazines in case of drafting.

NATO reinfocements welcomed as real power, outstanding deterrence factor and from the figures it is clear that Polish Army would be the core of defence/operations of NATO in the theatre.

Certainly "gaps" does not include the traditional patriotic strong morale and will of the Polish and its Armed Forces to defend their land from any enemy.

GD

P.S.
Poland absolutely wisely did not signed the Ottawa treaty on mines ban like so many other countries did and have seven mine spread systems plus traditional mines which can be used to chanelize the enemy movement and keep them temporaily on hold. Mines are vital for DEFENCE.
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  #110  
Old 10-02-2017, 18:08
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Now that would be a significant exercise - 100,000 troops!

(From CBS News)

Putin planning to send 100K troops to Baltic border for drills?

"Baltic nations are increasingly worried that Russian war games set for this autumn will see President Vladimir Putin send as many as 100,000 troops to Belarus’ border with Lithuania and Poland -- the very edge of the Kremlin’s sphere of influence with eastern Europe."

Complete article here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-10...lip-breedlove/
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  #111  
Old 15-02-2017, 20:05
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Good to see! Hopefully some of the delinquents (Canada among them!) will start to pony up their fair share.

(From NBC News)

Mattis to NATO: Increase Military Spending or Else

"Defense Secretary James Mattis delivered a tough ultimatum to NATO on Wednesday: Kick in more cash for defense by the end of the year or the Trump administration will "moderate its commitment."

"No longer can the American taxpayer carry a disproportionate share of the defense of Western values," Mattis said during a closed door meeting with the alliance's 27 other defense ministers. "Americans cannot care more for your children's future security than you do.
"

Complete article here:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/europe/m...r-else-n721291
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  #112  
Old 15-02-2017, 21:18
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatari View Post
Mattis to NATO: Increase Military Spending or Else

"Defense Secretary James Mattis delivered a tough ultimatum to NATO on Wednesday: Kick in more cash for defense by the end of the year or the Trump administration will "moderate its commitment."

"No longer can the American taxpayer carry a disproportionate share of the defense of Western values," Mattis said during a closed door meeting with the alliance's 27 other defense ministers. "Americans cannot care more for your children's future security than you do.
"
This has been a long time coming!

The big economies on the continent shirking their responsibilities e.g. Germany, France, Italy and others will hopefully heed this wake-up call. That nonsense of a EU Army should be forgotten.
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  #113  
Old 17-02-2017, 21:22
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emason emason is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Crisis? What crisis? Another example of EU ostrich politics.

Quote:
Europe must not cave in to US spending demands on NATO, says EU's Jean-Claude Juncker

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said on Thursday that Europe must not cave in to US demands to raise military spending, arguing that development and humanitarian aid could also count as security. . . .


"It has been the American message for many, many years. I am very much against letting ourselves be pushed into this," Mr Juncker said in a speech on the sidelines of the international Munich Security Conference.

He said he knew that Germany would no longer have a budget surplus if it increased defence spending to 2 per cent of GDP from 1.22 percent.

"I don't like our American friends narrowing down this concept of security to the military," he said, arguing it would be sensible to look at a "modern stability policy" made up of several components.

"If you look at what Europe is doing in defence, plus development aid, plus humanitarian aid, the comparison with the United States looks rather different. Modern politics cannot just be about raising defence spending," he said.

"Europeans must bundle their defence spending better and spend the money more efficiently," he added.
Full story:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...says-eus-jean/
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  #114  
Old 18-02-2017, 16:27
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Disturbing article in the Telegraph:

Quote:

The Polish Army is on the brink of dysfunction after an exodus from its top ranks in protest over political interference by the government.

Some 26 generals and 260 top officers have left their posts in the last 16 months, frustrated with an apparent favouring of soldiers loyal to Law and Justice, Poland’s governing party, and the defence ministry’s failure to consult them on changes to the army’s structure.

The loss of senior staff has raised question marks over the government’s handling of a key Nato military at a time when Poland and the alliance face increasing security threats from Russia and the war in neighbouring Ukraine. . . . .
Full article here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-interference/
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  #115  
Old 18-02-2017, 20:38
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Marius_B Marius_B is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

The verbal musings and utterings of EU chief Juncker are things I simply ignore. I think much of it is ignored by his main sponsor as well - the German taxpayer as represented by the German Chancellor. Don't even get me going on the joke of this dreamt about thing to be called an EU Army.

Poland - politics and the military:-
I have understanding for the necessary symbiotic relationship between politicians and the armed forces - of any country. If political leaders and their military counterparts don't get on you have a problem. The military is the strong arm of politics. I am reminded of the dictum by Carl von Clausewitz -
Quote:
War is merely the continuation of politics by other means
So if some Generals and others from Poland's military are leaving, it is for the better. The Polish government are investing heavily in new equipment and if some personnel don't or can't fit in they need to go, as some are doing.
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  #116  
Old 19-02-2017, 16:08
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius_B View Post
So if some Generals and others from Poland's military are leaving, it is for the better. The Polish government are investing heavily in new equipment and if some personnel don't or can't fit in they need to go, as some are doing.
It seems there is more to it than a few generals having a hissy fit.
Quote:
General Koziej told The Telegraph, “The high command does not necessarily disagree with the decisions themselves but the way political power is exercised: overt political interference into the competencies of the army command, civil servants taking the role of political superiors and the politicisation of the army along party lines. . . .

Critics claim the ruling Law and Justice party is giving top posts to party loyalists, while anybody considered politically suspect or tainted with a legacy from Poland’s communist era is removed. Similar purges are reported to be taking place in the civil service, public media and state run institutions.

The army has also been left frustrated by the siphoning off of precious resources to fund and support a new territorial defence force. Advocated for by Antoni Macierewicz, the Polish defence minister, the territorial units when up and running will be answerable to the defence ministry and outside army command, prompting fears they will become a political force but lacking the professional capabilities of highly-trained regular troops.
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  #117  
Old 25-02-2017, 18:53
Surfgun Surfgun is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Quote:
Originally Posted by greendragon View Post
Tim,

This is MY not President Donald Trump view on the Canadians participation in NATO with money.
I am not going to be a critic of the Canadian defence budget for this is a Canadian matter but the fact the Canadians have beed deployed to the Eastern Flank is today the most crucial fact, should be appreciated and taken for account in any discussion.
The Canadian participation in PKOs, PSOs and NATO operations show that the Canadian Armed Forces whatever the budget is never avoided missions abroad while many other countries bith high def budget restrained themselves from any military mission.
The cooperative buddies means that as I saw it, they have been good, tough servicemen, cooperative and supporting regardless of the budget as differs from some other nations I saw well budgeted but not easy to cooperate .
Might be my memory doesn't serve me we well but one of the Canadian beer was called Blue Label.
And in this way I conclude my defence of the Canadians against the Canadian.

Regards,

GD
I would think Greendragon was referring to Labatt's Blue (beer).
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  #118  
Old 25-02-2017, 19:33
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfgun View Post
I would think Greendragon was referring to Labatt's Blue (beer).
Or Carling Black Label?
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  #119  
Old 26-02-2017, 07:24
greendragon greendragon is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Thanks both of your for help - definitely it was Labatt's Blue(1).

The more serious matters as seen here in this NATO thread and touching the Polish Armed Forces would need very extensive and huge lecture about Poland to include its history, national character, social matters etc etc.
A lot of significant differences which make the Polish the Polish.
What Gen Koziej said is true and might be supported by many facts.
Just one thing; three days ago Defence Minister of Poland proudly announced that in one year he exchanged 90% of the officers in General staff and high commands of the Armed forces. Please remember it has happened 26 years after Poland quit previous political system. Actually how many of them would be having a stronger roots in WP organisation, 3-5%? Any charged, fired with being not loyal to their country and nation? None.
Who are the replacements - certainly ambitious officers with one significant weak side which is lack of i.e. staff experience, a vital value for any officer. One can be good combat officer in the Afgh but getting a planner position in higher commnad may create some problems for him.
Analogies with such a cleansing, in times when war was close? You might find it easily.

On the other side some decision have been sound in my opinion; cancel one sided French Caracal helicopters bid (new one with broader specification on more types that would make chance to Polish manufactured CH60s and Augusta Westlands) has been put forward; removed limit of service length for professional enlisted (it used to be 12 years before, leaving the best , costly trained specialists "stranded on beach" and army without the best men/women) or building light batalions of the Territorial Army (about 50,000) which in theory will increase the present armed forces strenght by 30%.
Purchasing of new weapon systems were already told here.
Creating the arms production Polish Gvt run Holding might be also seen as a good example of this Gvt activity on defence matters.
What is the most important they (and I believe grat most "we") see the NATO soldiers presence in Poland as "a must".

You will not drag more from me on the a/m subject

GD

(1) "My" Canadians in UNDOF really liked one of the Polish beer brands and even claimed (reluctantly though) it was better than a/m Labatt's.
I tried to kill this love by saying that the beer was made from the Odra river water which was used to process camera films without adding any more chemicals but it did not worked !!!
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  #120  
Old 02-03-2017, 18:31
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Another nervous European nation:

(From CBC News)

Sweden brings back compulsory military service

"Sweden's left-leaning government is reintroducing a military draft for both men and women because of what Defence Minister Peter Hultqvist calls a deteriorating security environment in Europe and around Sweden."

Complete article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/sweden-...vice-1.4006118
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  #121  
Old 02-03-2017, 19:20
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

And another one:

(From CBS News)

Estonia's civilian militia bulks up in face of Russian aggression

"They may look like soldiers, but they’re actually ordinary men and women with day jobs who volunteer in the Estonian Defence League, a kind of citizen’s militia.

There are more than 13,000 of them, a civilian resistance force ready to rise up if Estonia were attacked.
"

Complete article here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/estonias...an-aggression/

and this article:

(From CBS News)

With volunteers and U.S. tanks, Estonia tells Russia it's "ready to fight"

"Dozens of men and women in camouflage gather in a school gymnasium, readying equipment and weapons for a hypothetical battlefield.

They may look like soldiers, but as CBS News’ Elizabeth Palmer reports, they’re actually ordinary civilians with day jobs, but they are also volunteers in the Estonian Defence League, a kind of citizen’s militia.
"

Complete article here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/estonia-...efense-league/
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Last edited by Scatari : 02-03-2017 at 19:32.
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  #122  
Old 01-04-2017, 01:39
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

I would love to be the proverbial "fly on the wall" at these meetings. Just hope that the US maintains this position and pressures the delinquent members to live up to their responsibilities:

(From ABC News)

US gives NATO allies 2 months for defense spending plans

"U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson warned NATO allies Friday to boost defense spending or come up with plans to reach the alliance's budget guidelines within two months.

Tillerson, in his first talks with NATO counterparts in Brussels, said that Washington is spending a "disproportionate share" on defense compared with its 27 partners, and that he expects action by the time President Donald Trump meets with other alliance leaders on May 25.
"

Complete article here:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...dgets-46485084

Nice to see that Canada's Global Affairs minister is still spouting the standard mealy-mouthed party line of our spineless government:

"Canadian Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland said that beyond money, "it's also really important to look at capabilities and what countries are actually doing."

"We really feel that we're doing our share," she said, highlighting Canada's troop deployment to Latvia to help deter Russian aggression.
"

If she really feels that Canada is doing its share, she must be smoking some of that substance which her boss is panning to legalize next year!
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  #123  
Old 01-04-2017, 08:29
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Angry Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

I too am fully on-board with the comments and sentiments expressed by US Secretaries Tillerson, Mattis, and UK Sec. of Defence Sir Michael Fallon re the free-loaders within NATO. The Germans being the wealthiest on the continent but one of the worst contributors to NATO, with only 1.2% of GDP. I sincerely hope the USA decreases their defence commitment, presence (boots) on the ground and whatever else by whatever means to the German defence / military establishment. Merkel and her supporters have lost the plot with their country's immigration and security decisions.

It cannot and must not be up to the USA and UK to carry the lion's share of commitments to NATO defence for those shirking their responsibilities.

I sincerely hope that if sense and sensibility do not prevail at the imminent EU / Brexit negotiations the UK Government plays the security card as was alluded to by the Prime Minister. It is time EU / NATO members understand and appreciate the UK contribution to NATO - soon to be hugely enhanced with new carriers and aircraft.
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  #124  
Old 09-05-2017, 16:20
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: The "West's" Defence Crisis

Another threat to Western security!

(From BBC News)

Estonia faces cross-border beaver problem

"Estonia wants to clear beaver dams from its border with Russia to prevent smugglers and other illegal activity.

But its Police and Border Guard Board (PPA) faces the added complication that it will have to make "partial" crossings to the Russian side of the rivers marking the national boundary to get the job done, national broadcaster ERR reports.
"

Complete article here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-f...where-39837088
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  #125  
Old 10-06-2017, 07:24
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default More defence cuts to come ?

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/...-what-it-needs
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Random Timeline Entry : 21st January 1938 : HMS Enterprise : Arrived Zanzibar

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