World Naval Ships Forums  
VIEW ALL OF OUR CURRENT SPECIAL OFFERS HERE!

Go Back   World Naval Ships Forums > Naval History > German Ships and Crews
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

German Ships and Crews Topics relating to a specific German ship or ships.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 15-11-2016, 03:45
jupiter jupiter is offline
Sub-Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South Queensferry, Scotland
Posts: 143
Default German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Hello, can anyone tell me the names of the German Grand Fleet Ships that were anchored in the Forth before going up to Scapa Flow, please. I believe some were in Rosyth or were they all in the mouth which is further out?
Thanks, NB, Jupiter
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 15-11-2016, 08:48
johnny07 johnny07 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: With wife Ann in Banchory, Aberdeenshire.
Posts: 3,714
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Hello Jupiter, To make your searches easier the German fleet was called The High Seas Fleet. The English fleet was called The Grand Fleet.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 15-11-2016, 10:16
Vegaskip's Avatar
Vegaskip Vegaskip is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Auchtermuchty FIFE SCOTLAND
Posts: 3,901
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Go to Google, type in 'Operation ZZ' You will get more information 'than you can shake a stick at'
Jim
Ps I think the last time the English had a fleet was around the time of James 1+6
__________________
Jim
"No one is perfect, however being Scottish is near enough"!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 15-11-2016, 13:48
johnny07 johnny07 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: With wife Ann in Banchory, Aberdeenshire.
Posts: 3,714
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegaskip View Post
Go to Google, type in 'Operation ZZ' You will get more information 'than you can shake a stick at'
Jim
Ps I think the last time the English had a fleet was around the time of James 1+6
Yes, A slip of the pen Jim, a slip of the pen.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21-11-2016, 10:56
sigurd83 sigurd83 is offline
Chief Petty Officer
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 74
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Operation ZZ , as it was designated, was executed on 21 November 1918. Two days earlier nine German battleships, five battlecruisers, seven cruisers and 50 destroyers had set sail, heading west.

Under the terms of the Armistice which had ended the war they were to hand themselves over in the Firth of Forth, before being brought to the lonely Orkney anchorage of Scapa Flow.


Sigurd83
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 21-11-2016, 11:34
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 424
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Sigurd,

It is a minor point but the Armistice simply ended the fighting, it did not end the war. That was done when the Treaty of Versailles was signed.

GK
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 22-11-2016, 04:23
BlackBat242's Avatar
BlackBat242 BlackBat242 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,106
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Which was signed on 28 June 1919, long after the surrender of the German fleet, and the move of those ships to British waters.

It was word of the provisions of the Treaty that triggered the mass scuttling of the German warships in Scapa Flow on 21 June 1919, as the German officers & men did not want their ships given to their erstwhile enemies as war loot.
__________________
Only a fool fights in a burning house. __ Jon A., Sgt USMC '81-'89; CV-61 USS Ranger '85-'87
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22-11-2016, 08:28
johnny07 johnny07 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: With wife Ann in Banchory, Aberdeenshire.
Posts: 3,714
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

I think the demise of the HSF was only brought forward as surely the fleet would have been taken out and scuttled by us.
We had such a huge fleet then we wouldn't want the expense of maintaining another one. I suppose a few pieces of Krupp's steel would have come in handy though.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22-11-2016, 08:59
Vegaskip's Avatar
Vegaskip Vegaskip is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Auchtermuchty FIFE SCOTLAND
Posts: 3,901
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Another classic example of wandering off thread. The information requested was the position of the German ships in the Firth of Forth. The rest is covered in various other threads. It will be interesting to see how the originator gets on, and if they will show us the results of their quest.
Jim
__________________
Jim
"No one is perfect, however being Scottish is near enough"!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 22-11-2016, 10:49
johnny07 johnny07 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: With wife Ann in Banchory, Aberdeenshire.
Posts: 3,714
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

WOW that's me told.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 22-11-2016, 11:12
Vegaskip's Avatar
Vegaskip Vegaskip is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Auchtermuchty FIFE SCOTLAND
Posts: 3,901
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

And there's me thinking I was being polite.
__________________
Jim
"No one is perfect, however being Scottish is near enough"!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-12-2016, 14:22
jupiter jupiter is offline
Sub-Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South Queensferry, Scotland
Posts: 143
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Thanks everyone for your input, as suggested by Vegaskip, If I find anything I will let you all know as it seems to an undiscovered topic! Merry Christmas and regards.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 14-12-2016, 12:41
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 424
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Jupiter,

Are you now saying that you have not yet found the information that you want?

GK
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-01-2017, 08:31
jupiter jupiter is offline
Sub-Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South Queensferry, Scotland
Posts: 143
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Yes, I have not yet found the information that I want, however I believe the Royal Navy in Rosyth is going to assist us nearer 2018 in preparation for our German High Seas Surrender Exhibition (Queensferry History Group - we look on to the Forth across from Rosyth and along a bit) so I should be able to post our findings then.
I am still searching however and although I have found information that states some of the fleet came up to Rosyth before heading for Scapa Flow, I have aso read most of the fleet anchored in the mouth of the Forth, which is not as far up as us here in South Queensferry, so it would be helpful if I can find which ones came up to Rosyth first. The Royal Navy might be able to help with this if records were kept and survived.
Thanks and Happy New Year, Norma
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-01-2017, 13:33
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 424
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Jupiter,

See PMs

GK
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-01-2017, 15:34
TCC TCC is offline
Commodore
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 945
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiter View Post
Yes, I have not yet found the information that I want, however I believe the Royal Navy in Rosyth is going to assist us nearer 2018 in preparation for our German High Seas Surrender Exhibition (Queensferry History Group - we look on to the Forth across from Rosyth and along a bit) so I should be able to post our findings then.
I am still searching however and although I have found information that states some of the fleet came up to Rosyth before heading for Scapa Flow, I have aso read most of the fleet anchored in the mouth of the Forth, which is not as far up as us here in South Queensferry, so it would be helpful if I can find which ones came up to Rosyth first. The Royal Navy might be able to help with this if records were kept and survived.
Thanks and Happy New Year, Norma
Does this help? I'm afraid I don't have it in higher resolution.

Last edited by jbryce1437 : 14-01-2017 at 10:10. Reason: image removed on request by poster
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-01-2017, 19:39
jbryce1437's Avatar
jbryce1437 jbryce1437 is online now
Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Roker, Sunderland, England
Posts: 8,735
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCC View Post
Does this help? I'm afraid I don't have it in higher resolution.
Many thanks TCC, I enlarged the image using software and this is the best that I could make out from the names. The document is written in German, so may be some errors.

Jim
Attached Images
File Type: pdf germans forth.pdf (42.9 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg germans-forth.jpg (617.6 KB, 16 views)
__________________
Old Ships: Raleigh 1963, Collingwood 63, Ark Royal 64, Collingwood 67, Undaunted 68, Porstmouth FMG 70, Exmouth 72, Victory 1974 as JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL. Then 28 years in the Fire Service

Last edited by jbryce1437 : 14-01-2017 at 19:05. Reason: documents corrected
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 13-01-2017, 11:44
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 424
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Gentlemen,

As nobody had answered Jupiter's first enquiry by 2 Jan I sent her the list of German ships in a PM as it seemed inappropriate to bog this thread down. My information was in fact taken from the German sketch plan attached to TCC's Post 16. Owing to uncertainties arising out of reproduction some errors have crept in and I hope that this will tidy up the information in the attachment to Post 17. Please note that I have not dealt with the uncertainties in the Allied columns, as I believe this to be superfluous to this thread.

Therefore to complete: No 3 in the German column as drawn is "Hindenburg," No 9 is "Prinzregent Luitpold" and No 12 is "Grosser Kurfürst." That said even the German sketch is inaccurate as regards the name of one ship. "Kronprinz" had in fact been re-named "Kronprinz Wilhelm" in 1918 and No 17 could be better spelt as "Nürnberg."

Someone may query the lack of "Baden" from the sketch as an error. That would be wrong: "Baden" was not surrendered with the original group of ships. She was not surrendered until January 1919 but I don't have the exact date available with me.

Please note that although the sketch is of German origin there may be an error in its order of the German "battle-cruisers." I believe that there is in the British version that can be found elsewhere.

Hope this helps.

GK

PS I have offered Jupiter my assistance in finding the identities of the German torpedo-boats that were surrendered but she has not asked for them specifically to date. That, however, will be subject to error.

Last edited by Grosser Kreuzer : 13-01-2017 at 11:49. Reason: Qualification to information given
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 13-01-2017, 13:40
jbryce1437's Avatar
jbryce1437 jbryce1437 is online now
Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Roker, Sunderland, England
Posts: 8,735
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grosser Kreuzer View Post
Gentlemen,

As nobody had answered Jupiter's first enquiry by 2 Jan I sent her the list of German ships in a PM as it seemed inappropriate to bog this thread down. My information was in fact taken from the German sketch plan attached to TCC's Post 16. Owing to uncertainties arising out of reproduction some errors have crept in and I hope that this will tidy up the information in the attachment to Post 17. Please note that I have not dealt with the uncertainties in the Allied columns, as I believe this to be superfluous to this thread.

Therefore to complete: No 3 in the German column as drawn is "Hindenburg," No 9 is "Prinzregent Luitpold" and No 12 is "Grosser Kurfürst." That said even the German sketch is inaccurate as regards the name of one ship. "Kronprinz" had in fact been re-named "Kronprinz Wilhelm" in 1918 and No 17 could be better spelt as "Nürnberg."

Someone may query the lack of "Baden" from the sketch as an error. That would be wrong: "Baden" was not surrendered with the original group of ships. She was not surrendered until January 1919 but I don't have the exact date available with me.

Please note that although the sketch is of German origin there may be an error in its order of the German "battle-cruisers." I believe that there is in the British version that can be found elsewhere.

Hope this helps.

GK

PS I have offered Jupiter my assistance in finding the identities of the German torpedo-boats that were surrendered but she has not asked for them specifically to date. That, however, will be subject to error.
Many thanks GK for pointing out the errors, which I have now corrected and posted updated copies. I don't suppose that your version of the original is clear enough to make out the names of the other ships?

Jim
__________________
Old Ships: Raleigh 1963, Collingwood 63, Ark Royal 64, Collingwood 67, Undaunted 68, Porstmouth FMG 70, Exmouth 72, Victory 1974 as JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL. Then 28 years in the Fire Service
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 14-01-2017, 13:36
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 424
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Jim,

Re: Post 19.

Thank you.

The question marks at the head of the revised German column is HMS CARDIFF.

Presume that you would now like me to fill in the queries for the Allied ships from the German sketch in the book that I have and will do so, if it is readable. Will reply in a couple of days unless someone else beats me to it.

Meanwhile, there is an British drawing of the "Surrender Formation" titled "Der Tag," which may be available elsewhere on the Web. It should be a lot clearer but I believe that even that may have a few errors in it. If someone has a copy of it though they might like to post it on this thread.

Being pedantic; the spelling on your attachment to Post 17: No 5 should read "von der Tann," No 6 should read "Friedrich der Grosse" and No 7 should read "König Albert." Sorry, no embarrassment is intended.

GK
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 14-01-2017, 19:15
jbryce1437's Avatar
jbryce1437 jbryce1437 is online now
Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Roker, Sunderland, England
Posts: 8,735
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Many thanks for pointing out the errors GK, no offence taken, and I have corrected the attachments.
Spent all day hunting down and transcribing the Der Tag document, the contents of which differ from the ships listed in the previous post. The quality wasn't great, but I hope the following list is accurate. Some names were difficult to determine, so if there are any corrections, I will be pleased to make them to prevent any confusion in the future.

Jim
Attached Images
File Type: jpg der tag.jpg (1.61 MB, 17 views)
File Type: pdf der tag germans forth.pdf (42.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg der-tag-germans-forth.jpg (834.5 KB, 7 views)
__________________
Old Ships: Raleigh 1963, Collingwood 63, Ark Royal 64, Collingwood 67, Undaunted 68, Porstmouth FMG 70, Exmouth 72, Victory 1974 as JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL. Then 28 years in the Fire Service
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 15-01-2017, 20:12
Vegaskip's Avatar
Vegaskip Vegaskip is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Auchtermuchty FIFE SCOTLAND
Posts: 3,901
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

I think you will find that this is the 'order of advance' ie how the ships entered the Forth.
I can't remember where I read it, but I remember that the British Flag ship and other high ranking ships returned to Rosyth and the anchorage west of the rail bridge. I thing the destroyers were south of Inchkeith around Aberledy Bay, with more off Methil.
That's the problem with reading so many books. You forget which is which. It might even have been in some of W L Wyllie paintings or books.
Jim
__________________
Jim
"No one is perfect, however being Scottish is near enough"!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 16-01-2017, 12:04
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 424
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Jim (Forum Moderator),

More work I am afraid.

First, there was no No 10 in the German column as you indicate. Second, there were/are two versions of the British diagram "Der Tag." One (Version 1) shows only the identities of the officers of flag rank while the second (Version 2) also shows those of the commanding officers of the individual ships. Third, the sketch reproduced in TCC's post of 12 Jan is of German origin and any translation based on that will be different to that based on "Der Tag" where the placing of the individual Allied ships are concerned. In fact the German sketch is seriously in error in that respect, unless it shows a vastly changed formation. Furthermore, I believe that "Der Tag" also has one error as "Derfflinger" and "Hindenburg" may be in the wrong order (even at that time, the two ships were being confused as to which was which): I have "uttered" on that matter elsewhere on the site so I won't repeat the information here. There is a copy of Version 1 in SC George's book "Jutland to Junkyard:" I found the copy of Version 2 in the German book that I have (it's quality is quite poor).

Vegaskip,

Thanks for the input of 15 Jan. This is the sort of information that Jupiter and her local Heritage Group are seeking and I hope that she "picks up" on this information. I suspect though that they would have preferred the ships to have been somewhat further up the Firth of Forth. However, they will probably have to do a bit more "digging" to establish what was the actual case: assuming that the information is still "out there."

I agree with your sentiment on the plethora of books: I am now finding that some of them are also seriously inaccurate, when they should not have been even when written.

Jupiter,

For further information in the hope that you return to this thread. You will probably find that either the Imperial War Museum/National Archives/National Maritime Museum may have a good copy of both versions of "Der Tag" tucked away somewhere: you might like a copy for any display you are contemplating.

GK
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 16-01-2017, 15:40
jbryce1437's Avatar
jbryce1437 jbryce1437 is online now
Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Roker, Sunderland, England
Posts: 8,735
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grosser Kreuzer View Post
Jim (Forum Moderator),

More work I am afraid.

First, there was no No 10 in the German column as you indicate. Second, there were/are two versions of the British diagram "Der Tag." One (Version 1) shows only the identities of the officers of flag rank while the second (Version 2) also shows those of the commanding officers of the individual ships. Third, the sketch reproduced in TCC's post of 12 Jan is of German origin and any translation based on that will be different to that based on "Der Tag" where the placing of the individual Allied ships are concerned. In fact the German sketch is seriously in error in that respect, unless it shows a vastly changed formation. Furthermore, I believe that "Der Tag" also has one error as "Derfflinger" and "Hindenburg" may be in the wrong order (even at that time, the two ships were being confused as to which was which): I have "uttered" on that matter elsewhere on the site so I won't repeat the information here. There is a copy of Version 1 in SC George's book "Jutland to Junkyard:" I found the copy of Version 2 in the German book that I have (it's quality is quite poor).

Vegaskip,

Thanks for the input of 15 Jan. This is the sort of information that Jupiter and her local Heritage Group are seeking and I hope that she "picks up" on this information. I suspect though that they would have preferred the ships to have been somewhat further up the Firth of Forth. However, they will probably have to do a bit more "digging" to establish what was the actual case: assuming that the information is still "out there."

I agree with your sentiment on the plethora of books: I am now finding that some of them are also seriously inaccurate, when they should not have been even when written.

Jupiter,

For further information in the hope that you return to this thread. You will probably find that either the Imperial War Museum/National Archives/National Maritime Museum may have a good copy of both versions of "Der Tag" tucked away somewhere: you might like a copy for any display you are contemplating.

GK
Many thanks GK, 10??? removed. I was looking at the name to the left of 10, which looks like a HMS ... (i thought looked like Penelope, but she is in Column 1). The National Maritime Museum at Greenwich does say it has a copy of Der Tag, but not viewable online.

Jim
__________________
Old Ships: Raleigh 1963, Collingwood 63, Ark Royal 64, Collingwood 67, Undaunted 68, Porstmouth FMG 70, Exmouth 72, Victory 1974 as JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL. Then 28 years in the Fire Service
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 25-01-2017, 13:57
jupiter jupiter is offline
Sub-Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South Queensferry, Scotland
Posts: 143
Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Thank you all for your very valuable and helpful, as always, input with this thread. We will indeed try to obtain a copy of 'Der Tag' as suggested. I wil be looking at this again, later, meanwhile we are working on 1917 updates to add to our WW1 exhibition as it affected Queensferry and have some members looking at the American Navy in the hope they were in Rosyth or Port Edgar at some time during 1917!
Another thread perhaps, but I am leaving it to them to see how they get on.
We are quite excited, our WW1 exhibiton which opened in March 2016 for 6 months only and featured mainly Jutland (with our Commonwealth Graves) and also the Somme Offensive (we lost several men there) is still on going today and at the end of February this year we add 1917 and it should be on for most of this year while we complete our research for a year of 1918! Not bad for a small group of 6 hard working and very keen people.

Last edited by jupiter : 25-01-2017 at 13:58. Reason: ran out of room!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Ship Search by Name : Advanced Search
Random Timeline Entry : 15th January 1898 : HMS Curacoa : Sailed Scarborough for Yarmouth

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Grand Fleet 1914 INVINCIBLE Other Naval Topics 7 21-11-2013 18:08
Comrades of the Grand Fleet qprdave US Navy Ships and Crews 4 11-12-2011 11:16
Grand Fleet? GaryH Naval Book Forum 3 05-08-2010 16:54
With The Grand Fleet - 1915 qprdave Other Naval Topics 5 01-07-2010 17:13
Grand Fleet meets the German High Seas Fleet 27.11.18 SCRG1970 Other Naval Topics 3 04-03-2010 20:35


All times are GMT. The time now is 22:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.