World Naval Ships Forums  
CURRENT SPECIAL OFFERS ON OUR HUGE SELECTION OF ART PRINTS!

Go Back   World Naval Ships Forums > Everything Else > Everything Else
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Everything Else Serious non naval and non maritime subjects - 'Shore Leave' is for chat.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 07-03-2012, 09:30
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: The Formation of the Fleet Air Arm

POSTSCRIPT and back to where all this began

The lack of ASW development during the 1920s and 1930s was not entirely the fault of the Air Ministry. The struggle between the Admiralty and Air Ministry continued into the 1930s and it was the Admiralty that lost sight of why it was pursuing its own air service for the Navy. It became more a matter of getting revenge over the RAF for its success in defeating earlier attempts to break up the Air Force. It succeeded in forcing the return of the Fleet Air Arm (FAA) from the RAF in 1937, but made no effort to develop ASW formations. Instead it continued to believe in the supremacy of the capital ship and the FAA was meant to be suitable for fleet actions only. It was a mistake most of the major powers, in particular the Imperial Japanese Navy, made during the lead up to the Second World War.

Throughout the inter war period, the Admiralty had been continually sceptical of the aircraft's ability to sink a surface vessel. It was regarded as merely a reconnaissance technology. This resulted in a lack of development of a maritime strike force and lost another early opportunity to garner support for Coastal Area/Coastal Command.

In summation First Sea Lord David Beatty, 1st Earl Beatty proclaimed "I know of no operation in which the Navy and the Air [Service] have to co-operate in which the Navy would not play the more important role than the air service"

PPS Sheldon's IF ONLY-speaks volumes

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-07-2012, 15:07
Rupert Rupert is offline
Rear-Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,216
Default Re: The Formation of the Fleet Air Arm

Quote:
Originally Posted by KizmeRD View Post
Future generations of fighter aircraft are all going to be pilotless drones. The Royal Navy is already preparing for this technological change-over by fitting Play Stations in the Junior Rates Messes of all our ships at sea - what are the RAF doing I ask you?

Michael
Interesting thread.

Military aviation is undoubtedly changing towards Autonomous/Unmanned/Uninhabited air vehicles rather than traditional aircraft. These range from tiny hand launched affairs to aircraft sized complex vehicles.

Currently they are more at the unmanned (i.e. remote contol) end rather than autonomous but this is changing. Meaning that not only will a pilot not be needed, nor will the equivalent person back at base.

As this proceeds, one does wonder whether the force that is at risk is not the FAA but the RAF. Certainly the RAF reactions in the build-up to SDSR seemed to indicate that they thought there was a risk of aviation being handed over to the army/AAC and RN/FAA. Increasingly perhaps the FAA will by the same token by less a quasi-separate organisation, and more just another subset of equipment within the RN
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-07-2012, 15:31
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: The Formation of the Fleet Air Arm

The RAF is unlikely to go down the path of recruiting computer whizzes.
But the Americans have accepted the need for only a second-class medical certificate, and some RAF airmen believe it is only a matter of time before medically unfit experienced combat pilots get a new lease of life flying drones.
This in itself speaks volumes

Within two years, a new British drone, Taranis, is due to be unveiled that may finally be enough to excite the Typhoon pilots.
Designed during a project to replace RAF Tornado GR4s, it is expected to look like a bat-winged stealth bomber and will have such a long flight duration and weapons-carrying ability that it may spell the end of manned combat aircraft.

The point you make Rupert about how all of this new technology will seriously affect the existing Armed Services is an important one.I believe that it is possible for the "last in"-the RAF could well be run down; as the air roles are taken up by the Royal Navy and the Army.At this juncture it is pure supposition but Time Marches On and of course" waiteth for no man"
However of the four fundamental roles of air and space power (control of the air and space, air mobility, intelligence and situational awareness, and attack), cyberwar has key role to play in each. The RAF must drive these capabilities forward in the Joint environment alongside the other services. Crucially, in developing this way the RAF would find it easier to articulate its relevance in the 21st Century as it focused on capabilities and not delivery platforms. In the 20th Century the aeroplane was unique because of its capabilities but in the 21st Century it no longer remains so. The future of the Royal Air Force is not just about planes.



jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 11-07-2012 at 15:49.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-07-2012, 17:15
Rupert Rupert is offline
Rear-Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,216
Default Re: The Formation of the Fleet Air Arm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jainso31 View Post
The future of the Royal Air Force is not just about planes.

jainso31
A very key sentence. The question is whether the RAF have made it so. By trying to insist on ship launched aircraft and every helicopter capable of carrying more than x people being an RAF thing.

They could have carved out a boundary which is not so defined by the platform but by capability. But I don't think they have, and it may be too late to change.

Is a completely autonomous reconnaisance vehicle that looks like a missile, is controlled like a missile and flies like a missile an aircraft (and hence RAF) or a missile and hence RN (say)

There are UAVs that are more aircraft like, but the boundary is blurring
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-07-2012, 17:35
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: The Formation of the Fleet Air Arm

"flies like a missile an aircraft (and hence RAF)"-not so Rupert,FAA and AAC have aircraft too; but the RAF do not have missiles (other than those carried as weapons).I too think the RAF should by now, have nailed their flag to the mast of capability.
"They could have carved out a boundary which is not so defined by the platform but by capability. But I don't think they have, and it may be too late to change."
I do believe that you have" hit the nail squarely on the head" with that statement ."Too Late the Capability" may be their epitaph Rupert.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
Reply



Ship Search by Name : Advanced Search
Random Timeline Entry : 1st January 1918 : HMS Archer : Pennant H06

NAVAL PRINTS

Click above to see our naval art portal - Eight random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 The view across Battleship Row, viewed from above Ford Island as the USS Nevada gallantly makes her break for the open sea, coming under heavy attack from Japanese A6M2s from the carrier Hiryu. The Nevada was eventually too badly damaged to continue and was beached to avoid blocking the harbour entrance. In the immediate foreground, the lightly damaged USS Tennessee is trapped inboard of USS West Virginia which has sunk at her moorings, leaking burning oil and hampering the daring operations to pluck trapped crew members from her decks, while just visible to the right is the stern of the USS Maryland and the capsized Oklahoma.
Attack on Pearl Harbor by Ivan Berryman
Half Price! - £20.00
 On 20th October 1943, Wildcat and Avenger aircraft from the Carrier US Core, on patrol north of the Azores, surprised U378, a type VIIC U-boat which had been active in that area. The element of surprise was so complete that the submarines guns remained unmanned throughout the action.
The Element of Surprise by Robert Barbour.
Half Price! - £35.00
 The greatest naval battle of the First World War took place on the 31st of May and the 1st of June 1916, near the Danish province of Jutland.  It was the first and only sea battle between the British and German fleets, and certainly proved to be the clash of the Titans that the First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, had long planned.  Decisive victory was claimed by both sides, but, desperately fought though it was, the outcome was indecisive.  The Royal Navy suffered higher losses in both men and ships, but the German fleet never ventured out of harbour to seek battle again.  During the daylight fighting HMS Barham, under Rear Admiral Evan-Thomas, lead the 5th Battle Squadron (Valiant, Warspite and Malaya) and is seen here at 4.50pm exchanging with Hippers battle-cruisers to the south.

HMS Barham leads the 5th Battle Squadon at Jutland by Anthony Saunders.
Half Price! - £105.00
 During a patrol on 6th July 1918, Christiansen spotted a British submarine on the surface of the Thames Estuary. He immediately turned and put his Hansa-Brandenburg W.29 floatplane into an attacking dive, raking the submarine C.25 with machine gun fire, killing the captain and five other crewmen. This victory was added to his personal tally, bringing his score to 13 kills by the end of the war, even though the submarine managed to limp back to safety. Christiansen survived the war and went on to work as a pilot for the Dornier company, notably flying the giant Dornier Do.X on its inaugural flight to New York in 1930. He died in 1972, aged 93.

Kapitanleutnant zur See Friedrich Christiansen by Ivan Berryman. (Y)
Half Price! - £37.50

 The third of the Royal Navy's Vanguard class submarines, HMS Vigilant (S30) entered service on 2nd November 1996.  She is based at HMNB Clyde at Faslane and carries the UK's nuclear deterrent Trident ballistic missile.  Manned by a crew of 14 officers and 121 men, her main power is supplied by one Rolls Royce PWR2 nuclear reactor driving two GEC turbines.

HMS Vigilant by Ivan Berryman. (P)
Half Price! - £725.00
With the British Mediterranean Fleet riding at anchor in Grand  Harbour Malta, HMS  Majestic is shown preparing to leave harbour as local fisherman look on. 

Majestic Malta by Randall Wilson.
Half Price! - £65.00
USS Maddox engaging North Vietnamese torpedo boats with 5-in gunfire, August 2nd, 1964, in the Gulf of Tonkin.

USS Maddox by Randall Wilson.
Half Price! - £35.00
 HMS Broadsword and the aircraft carrier Hermes battle their way through the storm on their way to the Battle for the Falklands.

Storm Force to the Falklands by Anthony Saunders (Y)
Half Price! - £50.00

SPORT PRINTS

Click above to see our sport art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 Jimmys total of 516 league appearances produced an amazing 357 goals.

Greavsie by Gary Keane.
Half Price! - £55.00
FAR1007. Hodgson at Speed by Derrick Mark.
Hodgson at Speed by Derrick Mark.
Half Price! - £25.00
 2003 World Superbike Champion, Neil Hodgson with James Toseland in his slipstream.  British World Superbike - June 2003. 
Battle of Britain by Dave Foord.
Half Price! - £130.00
 A quartet of Ferrari 801s are warmed up at Rouen-les-Essarts.  French Grand Prix 1957.

Thoroughbreds in the Paddock by Ray Goldsbrough.
Half Price! - £75.00

AVIATION PRINTS

Click above to see our aviation art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 The success of the attack on the Möhne dam on the night of 16th/17th May 1943 meant that the remaining three 617 Sqn Lancasters of the First Wave could turn their attention to the Eder, some twelve minutes flying time away.  Wing Commander Guy Gibson first called in Flight Lieutenant D J Shannon, flying AJ-L (ED929G) to make the initial run, but he had great difficulty achieving the correct height and approach, so Gibson now ordered Squadron Leader H E Maudslay in AJ-Z (ED937G) to make his run.  Again, the aircraft struggled to find the correct height and direction, so Shannon was again brought in, AJ-L finally releasing its <i>Upkeep</i> on the third attempt. The bomb bounced twice before exploding with no visible effect on the dam. Now Maudslay made another attempt, but released his bomb too late.  The mine bounced off of the dam wall and exploded in mid air right behind AJ-Z, the Lancaster limping away, damaged, from the scene, only to be shot down on the way home with the loss of all crew.  Finally, Pilot Officer Les Knight was called in for one final attempt. AJ-N (ED912G) released its <i>Upkeep</i>  perfectly, the mine bouncing three times before striking the dam slightly to the south.  In the ensuing explosion, the dam was seen to shake visibly before the masonry began to crumble and a massive breach appeared.  With the Möhne and Eder dams both destroyed and the Sorpe demonstrated to be equally vulnerable, <i>Operation Chastise</i> had been a remarkable success and will stand forever as one of the most heroic and audacious attacks in the history of aerial warfare.

The Eder Breaks by Ivan Berryman.
Half Price! - £70.00


Prelude by Geoffrey R Herickx. (Y)
Half Price! - £25.00
 High in its element, a lone BAE Lightning F.6 glints in the evening sunshine as it returns from a sortie over the North Sea in the late 1970s.

The Sentinel by Ivan Berryman.
Half Price! - £35.00
 Regarded by some in the Air Ministry as a failed fighter, the mighty Hawker Typhoon was unrivalled as a ground attack aircraft, especially in the crucial months immediately prior to – and after – D-Day when squadrons of Typhoons operated in 'cab ranks' to smash the German infrastructure and smooth the passage of the invading allied force.  This aircraft is Mk.1B (MN570) of Wing Commander R E P Brooker of 123 Wing based at Thorney Island.

Sledgehammer by Ivan Berryman.
Half Price! - £75.00

MILITARY PRINTS

Click above to see our military art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 Wherever the GIs went they took their Jeeps with them, and before the war was run the little quarter-ton, 4-wheel drive, utility vehicle was as well known around the world as the Model T Ford. Nicolas Trudgian has painted a compelling image, set back in time when the little Jeep was omnipresent on and around the roads and battlefields of a war-torn world. It is Christmas 1944 and, as a gaggle of 339th FG P-51 Mustangs disturb the peace of this ancient English village, a little Jeep waits patiently outside the pub while her occupants sample the local ale. A wonderfully nostalgic painting that will bring back pleasant memories to many.
Welcome Respite by Nicolas Trudgian.
Half Price! - £70.00
 US Marines of the 2nd Battalion, 2nd RCT, 2nd Marine Division, supported by LVTs and tanks, take part in the successful but bloody assault on Betio Island, part of the Tarawa Atoll. Operation Galvanic as it was known became the first step on the island road to Japan itself.

Red Beach Two, Tarawa Atoll, 20th November 1943 by David Pentland. (GL)
Half Price! - £300.00
 Hauptsturm fuhrer Fritz Klingenberg, and the men of 2nd SS Divisions Motorcycle Reconnaissance battalion stop at the swollen banks of the River Danube. The following day he and six men, a broken down radio, and totally unsupported were to capture the Yugoslavian capital of Belgrade.

The Magician, Balkans, 11th April 1941 by David Pentland. (Y)
Half Price! - £35.00
 St Mere Eglise, Normandy, 6th June 1944.  U.S. Paratroops of the 82nd <i>All American</i> Airborne Division, descend on occupied France.

First to Fight by David Pentland.
Half Price! - £70.00
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fleet Air Arm Ednamay Other Naval Topics 24 19-07-2011 08:09
Grand Fleet? GaryH Naval Book Forum 3 05-08-2010 16:54
Grand Fleet meets the German High Seas Fleet 27.11.18 SCRG1970 Other Naval Topics 3 04-03-2010 20:35
The Fleet which had to die MMM Photo Galleries 23 04-03-2010 04:12


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:42.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.