World Naval Ships Forums  
VIEW ALL OF OUR CURRENT SPECIAL OFFERS HERE!

Go Back   World Naval Ships Forums > Military History > Other
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Other Any other topic on military history covering ancient and medieval battles and any other related topics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 26-04-2010, 21:02
qprdave's Avatar
qprdave qprdave is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Snyder Texas USA
Posts: 4,663
Default Causes of the American Civil War

The Times tried to explain the reasons why the then infant superpower should go to fight amongst themselves.

Reported in The Times on 23rd and 24th May 1861

ps.

I know this has nothing to do with the USN as such. But is was an important part of American history.

I also wonder if the outcome would have been the same if Britain had given in to the requests of the south for assistance!

Dave
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 26-04-2010, 21:06
steve roberts steve roberts is offline
Crossed the Bar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: gosport hampshire uk
Posts: 2,133
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Hi Dave. Very interesting article.It does pose the question of "What if".I know that Britain was sympathetic to the Confederate cause purely on the basis of cotton supplies.
Regards Steve.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 26-04-2010, 21:17
qprdave's Avatar
qprdave qprdave is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Snyder Texas USA
Posts: 4,663
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

I am sure that you are right Steve.

It was more than likely that it was discussed in high places in London. It is also likely that they came to the conclusion that, as the north was the industrial powerhouse for the whole country, we (Britain) would end up in a very expensive expedition if we were going to use force and, of course, the War of Independence wasn't that long before this and may have leaned towards Neutrality.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 26-04-2010, 21:53
John Odom John Odom is offline
Rear-Admiral
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chattanooga TN
Posts: 1,267
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Most interesting to read a contemporary article. I had great-grandfathers on each side. Grandpa Mathewson who served in the 1st Michigan Infantry for the union, told me that preservation of the Union was the main reason why he volunteered. Slavery was an issue later in the war. Grandpa Odom served for the Confederacy in the 2nd Louisiana Pelican Rifles. I never knew him, but family lore is that he fought the Yankees "because they were down here," and not over slavery. He and his family were very poor sharecroppers, in economic slavery.
__________________
John Odom
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 26-04-2010, 21:59
qprdave's Avatar
qprdave qprdave is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Snyder Texas USA
Posts: 4,663
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Thanks John.

Could it have been that the "war against slavery" was, let us say, propaganda put out by the north to justify the war? and it just stuck. I am not well up in the causes of the civil war. forgive me if the question is wrong and out of order.

Dave
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 26-04-2010, 22:35
steve roberts steve roberts is offline
Crossed the Bar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: gosport hampshire uk
Posts: 2,133
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Hi All.I think a lot of it was over the Southern States resistance to Industrialisation.If any of you have seen the marvelous film "Gettysburg" you will see that British Army liaison officers were appointed to the Confederacy.And in one clip General Longstreet is heard to say to a British officer."We should have freed the slaves,THEN fired on Fort Sumptner".So slavery at the begging was a tool used by the Union to promote the war.
Regards Steve.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 27-04-2010, 05:19
MelQuick MelQuick is offline
Crossed the Bar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Worthing, West Sussex
Posts: 1,478
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Hi Dave

What an interesting article. I learned a lot from it.

The article contains the phrase "The world is wide enough for all." Perhaps, if more people today adopted this philosophy, there would be less strife and heartache in the modern world.

Mel
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-05-2010, 06:21
skipperbob's Avatar
skipperbob skipperbob is offline
Leading Seaman
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: New York State USA
Posts: 31
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Slavery was the root cause of the war but the North did not go to war over it but rather to restore the Union. The South was beginning to realize that their economy based on slavery could not compete with the industrial giant the North was becoming. The South's only hope was to be able to expand slavery into the new territories that were opening up and that was one thing most in the North did not want to see. They were willing to accept slavery where it already existed but no expansion. The South felt they had the right to expand slavery and were prepared to secede from the Union to defend that right. After Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863 - making it a war to end slavery, there was no chance that any European power would intercede on behalf of the Confederacy.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-05-2010, 09:11
Scurs's Avatar
Scurs Scurs is offline
Vice-Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,997
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

As SkipperBob says, the North did not go to war over slavery, in fact Lincoln himself stated that his aim was not emancipation, but to restore the Union! The South reasoned that a a "Union" entered voluntarily, could be dissolved voluntarily........."not so", said the North!
Interestingly, even the proclamation of emancipation did not free all the slaves, only those "in States rebelling against the Union" (or words to that effect).........those in Union held States (Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware, etc) remained slaves.

The proclamation was a very clever and effective piece of wartime propaganda, making it (again as Bob says) morally impossible for European intervention of behalf of the South. Also a means to bolster a war-weary North, which were getting disenchanted with Union defeats (at least in the East, they fared better in the West).
"Honest" it was not........but politicians are not noted for "honesty" and "Honest Abe" was no more thus than any! Effective, though it was!
_
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 17-08-2011, 12:54
derek s.langsdon derek s.langsdon is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: norfolk uk
Posts: 763
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Dave.

Just finished reading "Franz Melcher's recollections as a soldier" excerpt supplied by US friend who received from our old UPI colleague in Atlanta,GA.Must be one of best first person records on the war. Melcher ran German paper "Deutsche Zeitung" locally and again after war in NY..Am advised should read "Elmira" and see rerun of Ken Burns "The Civil War" if reappears here. My US friend had Great Grandfather in Irish Brigade and his wife two Great Grandfathers both with North Carolina regiments.

regards

derek-L/Norfolk-UK
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 18-08-2011, 02:47
WGVSr WGVSr is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 779
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

As far as I can tell, none of my forefathers owned slaves although at least several times great grandpappy Hemphill fought for the South with the 24th Tennessee. I have a copy of his discharge papers. At the time of his enlistment, May, 1861, he was enrolled for a one year term. After fighting at Shiloh [Pickwick Landing] he was discharged at Corinth in May, 1862 and returned to his home in NW TN, by then in Union hands.

I think probably slavery, which was pervasive, at least in the ruling classes, was indeed one of the major causes, directly or indirectly, for the War. The normal argument from unreconstructed Southerners [and indeed many of our politicos today] was States Rights. However, prime among the ennumerated States Rights was 'that peculiar institution'. The common yeoman farmer, who had no slaves, believed the War was solely because 'the Yankees' were trying to force their beliefs on the South. Maybe so, but it was not for their benefit. Indeed, many of those in the North were not as overtly abolitionist as they were concerned over the potential for disunion.

In the end, it was Lee's strategic defeat by MacClellen at Antitem [Sharpsburg] in Sept, 1862 which ended Britain's taste for intervention on the Confederate side, which had been considered largely due to the USN's embargo on the shipment of cotton to Britain. The reason this was not a major issue in 1860 and 1861 was the relative plenty in the supply of cotton in English warehouses. With the victory, Lincoln could issue the Emancipation Proclamation which only freed slaves within states in rebellion.

Antitem is an interesting battle conflicting all that was best about generalship on Lee's part and all that was worst from MacClellen's. Lee, even though outnumbered at least 2:1 at all times during the battle, was able to use interior lines to blunt the Federal's powerful but uncoordinated attacks all day. Even more telling, he was allowed time to reorganize his battered troops, who had, in the past 3 months, fought the 7 Days around Richmond, sending MacClellen back to Washington in disgrace, marched to Manassas and defeated Federal forces under Pope and then invaded the North and march them back to Virginia.
Bill
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 18-08-2011, 14:53
Scurs's Avatar
Scurs Scurs is offline
Vice-Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,997
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Bill - another telling factor of Antietam (or Sharpsburg if you prefer! ), was that "Special Order 191". Had that NOT been found and McCellan not had advance knowledge of what troops Lee had, where they were and what they had been ordered to do, would the result have been the same?
Without that vital knowledge, even 2-1 superiority in numbers I doubt would have resulted in victory.
One of the great "what if's" of the war............"What if those orders had not been found". IMO the finding of them was was probably more of a "turning point" than Gettysburg ever was, because had Lee won that battle.............................no Proclamation of Emancipation and probable British & French recognition of the Confederacy, thus making the rest of the war "A whole different ball game", so to speak.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 19-08-2011, 01:44
WGVSr WGVSr is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 779
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurs View Post
Bill - another telling factor of Antietam (or Sharpsburg if you prefer! ), was that "Special Order 191". Had that NOT been found and McCellan not had advance knowledge of what troops Lee had, where they were and what they had been ordered to do, would the result have been the same?
Without that vital knowledge, even 2-1 superiority in numbers I doubt would have resulted in victory.
One of the great "what if's" of the war............"What if those orders had not been found". IMO the finding of them was was probably more of a "turning point" than Gettysburg ever was, because had Lee won that battle.............................no Proclamation of Emancipation and probable British & French recognition of the Confederacy, thus making the rest of the war "A whole different ball game", so to speak.
The whole Special Order 191 story is interesting but the telling item is what McClellen did with it. The answer is 'nothing'. In spite of knowing Lee's placements, he couldn't bring himself to do anything about it, to wit, waiting an extra day to attack, not coordinating his attacks, etc. By attacking throughout the day, rather than simultaneously he allowed Lee to fend and parry successfully from a tactical point of view but in the end, it was just good enough to win a strategic victory of sorts. A reasonable argument could be made that McClellen had saved the Union, in spite of himself.

There was to be a Cabinet Meeting in London on 23 October 1862 to discuss intervention but Lord Palmerston, then Prime Minister, concluded that intervention would not be viable until the War took a more favorable turn. That was as close as Britain got to intervention.
Bill
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 19-08-2011, 20:43
Hank's Avatar
Hank Hank is offline
Lieutenant-Commander
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Left Coast of Senor Cortez' sandbar
Posts: 399
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

It was the money. Please read transcript of Mr. Lincoln's July 4, 1861 speech to Congress in Special Session. If you see a mention of any reference to the human condition other than collection of the revenue we'ed be amazed. Not much difference on the Southern side. It was the money. Regards

"What's all this regarding the Scorpion and Wyvern in the lock?"- Mine wound up on the Sea King.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 20-08-2011, 02:36
WGVSr WGVSr is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 779
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

By the time of Lincoln's speech on 4 July 61, the war had already begun in earnest, 1st Bull Run would be fought within 3 weeks. Lincoln, at least initially, was more concerned in maintaining the Union than he would be later in the conflict. If you argue the cause was for the money, where was the money made ? For the South, cash meant cotton [and tobacco and other agricultural products] and for the era, cotton [and other agriculture] generally meant slavery.
Bill
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 20-08-2011, 08:53
Choppy Sea Choppy Sea is offline
Lieutenant-Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stourport on Severn
Posts: 351
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

I believe that Robert E Lee was born in England at the little village of Alveley which is on the Kidderminster to Bridgnorth road. He lived in a cottage close to the Three Horse Shoes public house. Ray h
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 20-08-2011, 14:08
Scurs's Avatar
Scurs Scurs is offline
Vice-Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,997
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Ray H..............dunno where you got that from! Robert E Lee was born Virginia, USA January 19th 1807, as was his father (Henry "Light Horse" Lee) born in Virginia.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 20-08-2011, 21:33
John Odom John Odom is offline
Rear-Admiral
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chattanooga TN
Posts: 1,267
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

There may have been a "Robert E. Lee" born in England, but THE Robert E. Lee was born in Virginia!
__________________
John Odom
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 21-08-2011, 00:52
WGVSr WGVSr is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 779
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Lee's middle name was Edward.
Bill
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 21-08-2011, 08:18
Choppy Sea Choppy Sea is offline
Lieutenant-Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stourport on Severn
Posts: 351
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurs View Post
Ray H..............dunno where you got that from! Robert E Lee was born Virginia, USA January 19th 1807, as was his father (Henry "Light Horse" Lee) born in Virginia.
Scurs, looks very much as if this originated in the Three Horse Shoes. Ray H
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 21-08-2011, 17:02
Choppy Sea Choppy Sea is offline
Lieutenant-Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stourport on Severn
Posts: 351
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

I was only two hundred years out with my statement. The Lee family originated in Shropshire and owned a sizeable amount of the county, for 500 years, mainly around the parish of Alveley. The family home Coton Hall was rebuilt about two hundred years ago the family having emigrated to America in the 1600's. Two tombs of the Lee's are in Acton Burnell church. As stated Robert E Lee was born in America. Ray H
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 24-08-2011, 17:45
Hank's Avatar
Hank Hank is offline
Lieutenant-Commander
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Left Coast of Senor Cortez' sandbar
Posts: 399
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Well, WGVsr, if the fact that slavery was the condition ment to be addressed in the Special Session of 1861, the closest the South ever had to the condition of War placed apon it, why is this condition not addressed initially? Initial questions of policy began to crop up during the first investment of Southern soil by Federal troops, masses of slaves entering Federal lands and requesting assistance. The Departments of the Navy and Army became bombarded with enquiries as to what policy would be.

Though the institution of Slavery was certainly at the forefront of the Radical Republican agenda such was never addressed until 1863. It was not until the U.S. Navy surpassed its enlistment capabilities in expanding the level of manpower from seventy nine vessels to its wartime total of eight hundred and sixty that the move came to use the source of recruitment. Washinton, D.C. and New York State were the initial placements for former slaves freed with the operations in North Carolina.

The point I make here is that the Federal Government failed to address the condition of Slavery as a point of the conflict prior to the opening of hostilities and for some considerable period afterward.
Regards

Regarding the lack of Lee influence in th Acton Hall area is due to the strong male members being lost to us during the barrages on the Western front during the Kaiser's War.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 25-08-2011, 01:21
WGVSr WGVSr is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 779
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

Hank,
I concur that the Federal Govt didn't make the slavery question central to its agenda until later in the War. I also concur that the loss at Antitem in 1862 gave Lincoln the momentum, as it were, to issue the Emancipation Proclamation. However, the mere fact that the Federal Govt didn't address slavery as the prime cause of the War doesn't make it any less of a fact. As I said previously, the Confederate Govt may not have realized the truth, or chose not to do so, but that also doesn't make slavery any less the cause. Consider the prime question of the 1850's: would the new states/territories be slave or free ? Slavery was the prime reason South Carolina seceded at the end of 1860 and called for a Convention of Slaveholding States to form a Southern Confederacy.
Bill
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 25-08-2011, 01:25
John Odom John Odom is offline
Rear-Admiral
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chattanooga TN
Posts: 1,267
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

This discussion is now semantic rather than substantive.

Slavery was the root cause of the economic situation that directly caused the war.
__________________
John Odom
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 26-08-2011, 00:27
WGVSr WGVSr is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 779
Default Re: Causes of the American Civil War

I dare say you're substantially correct John.
Bill
Reply With Quote
Reply



Ship Search by Name : Advanced Search
Random Timeline Entry : 30th January 1937 : HMS Galatea : Arrived Malta

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Civil Award to Wootton Bassett ?? harry.gibbon Everything Else 180 18-03-2012 23:07
Sea Cadets and the Spanish Civil War Collind Other Naval Topics 9 15-08-2011 15:09
Sea Cadet During Spanish Civil War Collind Other Maritime Topics 0 20-07-2007 18:03


All times are GMT. The time now is 19:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.