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  #1  
Old 10-08-2017, 13:36
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

BAE puts in Formal Bid for SEA5000 frigates

http://navaltoday.com/2017/08/10/bae...frigate-build/

Last edited by gruntfuttock : 10-08-2017 at 13:54.
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  #2  
Old 10-08-2017, 18:55
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emason emason is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

There is also a piece in today's Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...me-australian/
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  #3  
Old 11-08-2017, 09:25
Exsandgroper Exsandgroper is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Navantia SEA5000 offering.

http://www.asiapacificdefencereporte...ralia-s-F-5000

Cheers
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  #4  
Old 11-08-2017, 15:15
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

So in the spirit of fairness, Fincantieri's offering :-

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/...m-for-sea-5000
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  #5  
Old 11-08-2017, 15:18
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Feeling lazy, can anyone tell me if either Navantia or Fincantieri have put in a formal bid yet.
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  #6  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:41
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

A little more info from the Australian press. At last BAE and the UK government appear to taking seriously an opportunity to win a foreign contract. :-


BAE Systems’ big frigate bid is now official
Luke Griffiths, The Advertiser
August 10, 2017 3:30pm

BAE Systems believes its bid to build Australia’s nine future frigates is “transformational and compelling”.

The company yesterday officially submitted its plans to the Department of Defence for the $35 billion SEA 5000 Future Frigate program.

BAE is competing against Fincantieri and Navantia, with a competitive evaluation process expected to wrap up next year.

Construction of the first frigate will occur in Adelaide in 2020. All nine boats will be built at Techport.

The anti-submarine warfare fleet will replace the existing eight Anzac Class frigates.

BAE’s bid revolves around its “Global Combat Ship Australia”, a variant of its Type 26 Global Combat Ship which is under construction for the UK’s Royal Navy.

The company’s bid is being led by maritime business development director, Nigel Stewart. He said the SEA 5000 program offered BAE the chance to “collaborate across the company by sharing our expertise and experience, transferring embedded knowledge from one market to benefit another”.

“In addition, BAE is committed to representing Australia in the global marketplace, helping grow Australia’s export opportunities and opening up new markets for Australian industry through our global supply chain,” Mr Stewart said.

“By combining the formidable capability of our Type 26 anti-submarine warfare frigate with the heritage and skills we have in Australia, we’re sure we can offer a proposition that is both transformational and compelling.

“Our commitment is to establish a world-class shipbuilding capability in Australia that will build Australian ships with an Australian workforce.”


BAE’s local boss, Glynn Phillips said — if selected — SEA 5000 would be “a privilege that we are ready and excited to deliver”.

“Australia’s national shipbuilding industry, including the future frigates, will attract talent from across the country, impacting the SA economy the way the resources boom transformed other parts of the country,” Mr Stewart said.

Meanwhile, the Federal Government yesterday handed over its first payment of $20 million for the Techport shipbuilding site at Osborne.

The entire deal will return around $230 million to State Government coffers and provide the Commonwealth unrestricted access to the site.

SA Minister for Defence Industries Martin Hamilton-Smith said yesterday’s payment marks a significant milestone in the state’s shipbuilding history.

“It signals the start of major naval shipbuilding programs to be based in Adelaide,” he said.

“The transfer of land will help the Australian Government create vital infrastructure to ensure our shipbuilding projects meet all the necessary time-frames and deadlines.”
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  #7  
Old 15-08-2017, 21:42
mstary1 mstary1 is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

The Navantia bid would have to be a very strong contender after the Hobart class. Their offering may integrate better with the new AWD as Navantia's offering looks like a scaled down version of the Hobart's. Also BAE will have to overcome a long stretch of UK designed ship failing to win contracts for the RAN since our Type 12's of the 70's.

For me, my money is on the Spanish bid to get the nod. The RAN is currently having a love affair with Spanish designed ships.

Our new supply ships will be build by Navantia.
The Hobart class.
Adelaide and Canberra LHD's.
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  #8  
Old 15-08-2017, 22:20
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstary1 View Post
The Navantia bid would have to be a very strong contender after the Hobart class. Their offering may integrate better with the new AWD as Navantia's offering looks like a scaled down version of the Hobart's. Also BAE will have to overcome a long stretch of UK designed ship failing to win contracts for the RAN since our Type 12's of the 70's.

For me, my money is on the Spanish bid to get the nod. The RAN is currently having a love affair with Spanish designed ships.

Our new supply ships will be build by Navantia.
The Hobart class.
Adelaide and Canberra LHD's.
Would you like to give examples of 'A long stretch of UK designed ship failing' as it's not something I recognize. Leaving aside the T45 fiasco, which is now being rectified, what others have 'failed'

Frankly I would have thought that the RAN would have been rather wary of Navantia, as both the AWD and the LHD haven't exactly been trouble free have they.
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  #9  
Old 15-08-2017, 22:22
Exsandgroper Exsandgroper is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

In the rendition of the F5000, they forgot to remove the MK-99 FCS
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  #10  
Old 15-08-2017, 23:12
mstary1 mstary1 is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
Would you like to give examples of 'A long stretch of UK designed ship failing' as it's not something I recognize. Leaving aside the T45 fiasco, which is now being rectified, what others have 'failed'

Frankly I would have thought that the RAN would have been rather wary of Navantia, as both the AWD and the LHD haven't exactly been trouble free have they.
Well Australia went for the Charles F Adam's class over the Britsh County class.
Also, the FFG was chosen over the type 42's

The German Meko 200 was chosen for the Anzacs over the type 23's.
Not sure of the type 45 was ever considered for the AWD project?

And whilst true there have been problems, those problems are being ironed out. Hobart is not even in commission yet but friends onboard are telling me the crew are loving their new ship. Also the Spanish navy has been excellent in sending ships of the similar type to Australia to help with crew training, not to mention our personnel serving on Spanish ships to gain experience. Adelaide and Canberra are back at sea now as well. Noting the problems the type 45's have had, all new ships have teething problems, so I don't see the RAN being wary at all. The RAN was very impressed with the Cantabria when she was in our waters and fast tracked the tender to replace our oilers with her design.

Fact is the last three biggest purchases for the RAN have been Spanish designs. The type 26 will have to be something special if it is to top the Navantia bid.
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  #11  
Old 16-08-2017, 02:16
Spoz Spoz is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Yes, the T45s were considered very early on but didn't make the final 3.

Although we have certainly bought Spanish ships recently, I note that Navantia didn't make the short list for the OPVs despite having what looks to be a pretty good OPV design (Avante 1400 which they have sold in Latin America) as well as a couple of others that are bigger than we would want but would probably be scalable. I don't know if they offered, but I would be surprised if they didn't. Although I have absolutely no inside knowledge, I think it's more likely that the designs were chosen because they seemed to be best able to deliver the requirement rather than for their national origin, although of course I don't suppose that hurts in support terms.
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  #12  
Old 16-08-2017, 07:45
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstary1 View Post
Well Australia went for the Charles F Adam's class over the Britsh County class.
Also, the FFG was chosen over the type 42's

The German Meko 200 was chosen for the Anzacs over the type 23's.
Not sure of the type 45 was ever considered for the AWD project?

And whilst true there have been problems, those problems are being ironed out. Hobart is not even in commission yet but friends onboard are telling me the crew are loving their new ship. Also the Spanish navy has been excellent in sending ships of the similar type to Australia to help with crew training, not to mention our personnel serving on Spanish ships to gain experience. Adelaide and Canberra are back at sea now as well. Noting the problems the type 45's have had, all new ships have teething problems, so I don't see the RAN being wary at all. The RAN was very impressed with the Cantabria when she was in our waters and fast tracked the tender to replace our oilers with her design.

Fact is the last three biggest purchases for the RAN have been Spanish designs. The type 26 will have to be something special if it is to top the Navantia bid.
So your idea of a 'failed UK design' is down to the fact that the RAN didn't buy them is it.

The County class, T22, T42, T23, T81, T21, Invincible class, shall I go on ? All the ships did sterling work for the RN, and none of them were classed as failures.

In regards to the MEKO being chosen over the T23, the T23 turned out to be one outstanding ASW vessel, and is acknowledged as such worldwide.

GF
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  #13  
Old 16-08-2017, 20:28
Jetex61 Jetex61 is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Steady on GF, if you read post #7 the thread reads UK designs "failing to win contracts", not failing necessarily as a design. The fact remains that the RAN chose not to go with UK designs and I don't think the poster was implying all UK ship designs since the Type 12 were failures; patently they were not.
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  #14  
Old 16-08-2017, 21:57
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetex61 View Post
Steady on GF, if you read post #7 the thread reads UK designs "failing to win contracts", not failing necessarily as a design. The fact remains that the RAN chose not to go with UK designs and I don't think the poster was implying all UK ship designs since the Type 12 were failures; patently they were not.
Sorry, my bad. Case of jumping in with both feet, and seeing something that wasn't there.
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  #15  
Old 17-08-2017, 00:31
Spoz Spoz is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post

In regards to the MEKO being chosen over the T23, the T23 turned out to be one outstanding ASW vessel, and is acknowledged as such worldwide.

GF

And that is one of the reasons why the Meko and the Dutch designs were chosen as the final two in the ANZAC competition; at the time it was intended as a tier 2 combatant, a patrol frigate. The DDG 2s and FFG7s were the tier 1 combatants and the Fremantles the Tier 3s in the lexicology of the then strategy, Paul Dibb and Kim Beazley's Defence of Australia.

The T23 at the time was clearly optimised for ASW in the North Atlantic at which it certainly promised to be excellent (but remembering that when we made the decision only one had been launched and none was in service), and that was not something Australia saw that it needed as we had 4 about to be 6 competent ASW frigates in the FFG7s, nor what it felt it should be paying for in the context of the requirement.
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  #16  
Old 17-08-2017, 01:23
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoz View Post
And that is one of the reasons why the Meko and the Dutch designs were chosen as the final two in the ANZAC competition; at the time it was intended as a tier 2 combatant, a patrol frigate. The DDG 2s and FFG7s were the tier 1 combatants and the Fremantles the Tier 3s in the lexicology of the then strategy, Paul Dibb and Kim Beazley's Defence of Australia.

The T23 at the time was clearly optimised for ASW in the North Atlantic at which it certainly promised to be excellent (but remembering that when we made the decision only one had been launched and none was in service), and that was not something Australia saw that it needed as we had 4 about to be 6 competent ASW frigates in the FFG7s, nor what it felt it should be paying for in the context of the requirement.
IIRC there was also a proposal, at the time, for a basic version of the T23 in competition with the German and Dutch designs. I'm not sure where that went?

There is a parallel here though, T26 has just commenced building and none are in service whilst the other 2 contenders (in original form) are. In my view that could place BAE at a great disadvantage in a risk adverse selection process.
It would be very different had the original build schedule been adhered to.
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  #17  
Old 17-08-2017, 04:52
Spoz Spoz is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Yes there was. It's a long time ago and the details have got a bit hazy, I seem to remember that it was not fully developed, and we got the impression that it was a "oh, we can do that if you really want but you should actually go for the real McCoy" approach, although it lasted longer than some others in the competition. There were a couple of other possibilities at one time as well, but they really have receded into the mists of time. 30 years since we made most of the decisions will be up next year, so we might well be able to get more detail to supplement the (failing) "little grey cells".

Last edited by Spoz : 17-08-2017 at 05:03.
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  #18  
Old 17-08-2017, 06:04
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoz View Post
Yes there was. It's a long time ago and the details have got a bit hazy, I seem to remember that it was not fully developed, and we got the impression that it was a "oh, we can do that if you really want but you should actually go for the real McCoy" approach, although it lasted longer than some others in the competition. There were a couple of other possibilities at one time as well, but they really have receded into the mists of time. 30 years since we made most of the decisions will be up next year, so we might well be able to get more detail to supplement the (failing) "little grey cells".
Unfortunately that seems to be standard sentiment from BAE, possibly because it's a monopoly supplier in its home market.
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  #19  
Old 11-09-2017, 12:43
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

So what is the Aussie government playing at, seems a bit odd to me. Perhaps someone can explain what the problem is. Are they saying that whichever company's design in chosen, then that company will not necessarily be chosen to build the ship in Australia. That it could be given to a 'local shipbuilder, someone like Austal for example, and that the two years delay, is the time it would take for such a builder to gear up to such a complex job. Or am I getting completely confused here.




Aussie Warship Project to be Delayed for Two Years by Local Companies: Minister
(Source: Xinhuanet; issued Sept 08, 2017)
CANBERRA --- A 28-billion-U.S.-dollar Australian warship project could be delayed for two years if local companies are handed the contract, a government minister has warned.

The Future Frigates project will see nine new anti-submarine warfare frigates designed and built to replace Australia's existing Anzac frigate fleet.

The Australian bid to build the ships is being led by South Australia's ASC and Western Australia's Austal, but Spain's Navantia, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Fincantieri have also been shortlisted for the project.

Despite an initial promise that the ships would be built in Australia, the Defence Department has convinced the government that the Australian-built clause should be "optional" rather than "mandated."

Christopher Pyne, Australia's defence industry minister, said: "Advice from the Department of Defence is that changing the request for tender to mandate a particular shipbuilder would result in a delay of at least two years in the Future Frigates program."

"The government is committed to creating an indigenous naval shipbuilding industry in Australia which will involve a significant increase of employees in the shipbuilding industry, focused on South Australia," Pyne said in a statement on Friday.

Appearing alongside ASC and Austal at a parliamentary inquiry into the project, Glenn Thompson, assistant national secretary at Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union (AMWU), said that the foreign companies had to commit to hiring 1,000 Australian apprentices and graduates for the program.

"The government must reward and support tenderers that show that level of commitment to developing the skills that workers will need to complete these projects," Thompson said.

"It is pretty remarkable that we've got a foreign company bidding for this project, talking up the Australian workforce, while the government's own documents make it clear that using these workers is optional.

"A sovereign capability to build, maintain, sustain and upgrade ships and submarines in Australia is not optional, using Australia workers on these projects from day one isn't either."

-ends-

Last edited by gruntfuttock : 11-09-2017 at 12:56.
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  #20  
Old 12-09-2017, 02:29
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
So what is the Aussie government playing at, seems a bit odd to me. Perhaps someone can explain what the problem is. Are they saying that whichever company's design in chosen, then that company will not necessarily be chosen to build the ship in Australia. That it could be given to a 'local shipbuilder, someone like Austal for example, and that the two years delay, is the time it would take for such a builder to gear up to such a complex job. Or am I getting completely confused here.




Aussie Warship Project to be Delayed for Two Years by Local Companies: Minister
(Source: Xinhuanet; issued Sept 08, 2017)
CANBERRA --- A 28-billion-U.S.-dollar Australian warship project could be delayed for two years if local companies are handed the contract, a government minister has warned.

The Future Frigates project will see nine new anti-submarine warfare frigates designed and built to replace Australia's existing Anzac frigate fleet.

The Australian bid to build the ships is being led by South Australia's ASC and Western Australia's Austal, but Spain's Navantia, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Fincantieri have also been shortlisted for the project.

Despite an initial promise that the ships would be built in Australia, the Defence Department has convinced the government that the Australian-built clause should be "optional" rather than "mandated."

Christopher Pyne, Australia's defence industry minister, said: "Advice from the Department of Defence is that changing the request for tender to mandate a particular shipbuilder would result in a delay of at least two years in the Future Frigates program."

"The government is committed to creating an indigenous naval shipbuilding industry in Australia which will involve a significant increase of employees in the shipbuilding industry, focused on South Australia," Pyne said in a statement on Friday.

Appearing alongside ASC and Austal at a parliamentary inquiry into the project, Glenn Thompson, assistant national secretary at Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union (AMWU), said that the foreign companies had to commit to hiring 1,000 Australian apprentices and graduates for the program.

"The government must reward and support tenderers that show that level of commitment to developing the skills that workers will need to complete these projects," Thompson said.

"It is pretty remarkable that we've got a foreign company bidding for this project, talking up the Australian workforce, while the government's own documents make it clear that using these workers is optional.

"A sovereign capability to build, maintain, sustain and upgrade ships and submarines in Australia is not optional, using Australia workers on these projects from day one isn't either."

-ends-
It's a beat up by the opposition Labor party, the unions.
The project won't be delayed. The ships will be built in Adelaide, by Australian workers with a high percentage of Australian content.
The designers, Fincantieri, Navantia and BAE all have Australian branches and all have arrangements with local supply chains.

Our industrial relation laws do not allow foreign workers into the country if there are local workers available and qualified and if, under some circumstances, foreign workers are allowed in under restricted visa conditions, local wages and conditions have to be met.

The ships will be built in, and leased from, ASC owned facilities.

Pyne is simply saying that if he does what they want and mandates that no foreign workers can be used there will be delays while local workers are sourced and trained for the specialist tasks.
He is not proposing anything different to what happened with the Navantia/ASC DDG build
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  #21  
Old 12-09-2017, 04:41
alfa alfa is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

IMHO I think it is a one horse race, with Navantia taking the Prize. Now that the RAN has set off down the 'Made in Spain' (albeit built in Australia) approach, they would be foolish to ignore the benefits of commonalty, regardless of capability.
Nige
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  #22  
Old 12-09-2017, 08:01
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSAIL View Post
It's a beat up by the opposition Labor party, the unions.
The project won't be delayed. The ships will be built in Adelaide, by Australian workers with a high percentage of Australian content.
The designers, Fincantieri, Navantia and BAE all have Australian branches and all have arrangements with local supply chains.

Our industrial relation laws do not allow foreign workers into the country if there are local workers available and qualified and if, under some circumstances, foreign workers are allowed in under restricted visa conditions, local wages and conditions have to be met.

The ships will be built in, and leased from, ASC owned facilities.

Pyne is simply saying that if he does what they want and mandates that no foreign workers can be used there will be delays while local workers are sourced and trained for the specialist tasks.
He is not proposing anything different to what happened with the Navantia/ASC DDG build
Thanks very much for that much clearer explanation, takes me a a while to grasp things nowadays

Must say I do like the conditions stated in your para two. I reckon those rules would be one answer to some of our problems in regards to the Brexit negotiations.

Then again the EUSSR would cry foul for some trumped up reason.
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  #23  
Old 12-09-2017, 08:35
ASSAIL ASSAIL is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
Thanks very much for that much clearer explanation, takes me a a while to grasp things nowadays

Must say I do like the conditions stated in your para two. I reckon those rules would be one answer to some of our problems in regards to the Brexit negotiations.

Then again the EUSSR would cry foul for some trumped up reason.
Here is a link to further explain the attitudes of the three contenders to build SEA 5000.
This reeks of the two Australian shipbuilders, ASC and Austal hoping that they get a piece of the action and are worried that they'll miss out.
ASC was recently broken up into three companies, one responsible for Collins Class sustainment, one shipbuilder and one infrastructure company.
Austal infrastructure is building the common user facility at Osborne where the ships will be built no matter who gets the contract.
The RFTs simply state that none of the companies tendering have to use ASC or partner with Austal.

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/ma...es-disclosures
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  #24  
Old 12-09-2017, 12:53
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfa View Post
IMHO I think it is a one horse race, with Navantia taking the Prize. Now that the RAN has set off down the 'Made in Spain' (albeit built in Australia) approach, they would be foolish to ignore the benefits of commonalty, regardless of capability.
Nige
Really? Regardless of who wins the contract, are you seriously suggesting that commonality is preferable to capability. I wonder what the service personel would think about that.
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  #25  
Old 16-09-2017, 08:09
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Australian SEA5000 Future Frigates

Now the person who knows more about the T26 programme than anyone else, is going to Oz. This from his twitter account :-

" Geoff Searle‏ @Type26ProgDir 18 hours ago

After >5 yrs leading a fantastic team on the #Type26 programme I am now moving on to lead the GCS-Australia team
bidding #SEA5000"
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