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  #1  
Old 30-09-2015, 22:55
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Canadian Surface Combatant Project

As we have threads dedicated to the AOPS (Arctic Offshore Patrol Ship) and JSS (Joint Support Ship) projects, perhaps it is time to start one on the third, and most ambitious, of the projects designed to upgrade the Canadian navy, the Canadian Surface Combatant Project.

First, the official description of this project (extract from the official government website):

"The CSC project will renew the Royal Canadian Navy surface combat fleet by replacing the capabilities provided by the destroyers (Iroquois-class) and the multi-role patrol frigates (Halifax-class). The CSC project is the largest and most complex shipbuilding initiative in Canada since World War II.

These new ships will ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces can continue to monitor and defend Canadian waters and make significant contributions to international naval operations.
"

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-...combatant.page

And a recent (somewhat troubling) related article from the Ottawa Citizen:

"DND looks to save money on futuristic warship by stripping parts off older vessels.

Canada is considering saving money on its future warship fleet by stripping equipment from its surplus destroyers and Halifax-class frigates, according to a document obtained by the Citizen.

The Canadian Surface Combatant or CSC will form the backbone of the future navy from 2025 onwards.

But, worried about a lack of government funding, the Department of National Defence is looking at stripping off parts from the existing Halifax-class frigates and the 44-year-old Iroquois-class destroyers.

Because of a government-imposed cap of $26 billion on the CSC project, there is a risk that not enough ships would be built for the navy’s needs, the May 2015 DND document points out.

Solutions to that problem could include reducing some capabilities on the vessels and looking at the “re-use of Iroquois and Halifax Class equipments,” it noted.

The Conservative government has approved the building of “up to 15” of the new warships. Industry and military representatives have repeatedly raised concerns about the lack of money.

But on Monday, Conservative leader Stephen Harper dismissed concerns voiced by Liberal leader Justin Trudeau that naval shipbuilding needs more funding.

“All of our shipbuilders are up to their eyeballs in work because we have the largest shipbuilding program in history,” Harper said.

Trudeau has said he would cancel Canada’s participation in the F-35 stealth fighter program and redirect savings into shipbuilding.

DND did not provide details on what pieces of equipment it would be looking at transferring from its other warships to the Canadian Surface Combatants.

Department spokeswoman Dominique Tessier noted that since the CSC project is still in its definition phase, “no specific equipment has yet been confirmed or committed.”

“If it is operationally feasible and appropriate to do, this is an option that will be considered,” she added in an email.

But defence analyst Martin Shadwick said stripping the Iroquois and Halifax-class warships of equipment for the new vessels likely won’t yield much savings, if any.

Two Iroquois-class vessels have been taken out of service already and much of their equipment is old. Another, HMCS Athabaskan, is still operating but has faced mechanical and other technical problems.

“Given that the new ships won’t be ready for another decade, then there’s not much, if anything, that could be used from existing vessels,” said Shadwick of York University. “It will all be outdated.”

He noted Halifax-class frigates could be seen as more “credible donors” of equipment. But again, there is the decade-long wait for the new warships, during which much of the recently updated Halifax-class equipment will be technologically inferior, he added.

It will be years before building of the new vessels begins. The first ship is expected to be ready in 2025. Delivery of the ships would continue until 2041, the navy has noted.

Navy commander Vice Admiral Mark Norman has called the ships the “jewel in the crown” of Canada’s futuristic maritime force. Navy planners had hoped the warships would be highly technologically advanced.

DND also issued a statement to address concerns raised in its document that there is a high risk of the CSC project not delivering what the navy needs.

“This project is currently in the definition phase, which means we are at the stage of firming up more of the detail, examining issues such as cost, schedule and requirements, and identifying any risks early so that they can be mitigated,” the DND stated.

“As the project progresses through the definition phase, National Defence and the Royal Canadian Navy will continue to evaluate risks, adapt accordingly, and find efficiencies when and where possible,” it added. “This is an ongoing process that will continue to evolve throughout the life of the project.”

At this stage of a project, it is not unusual for some risks to be assessed as high, the DND stated. This may change over time as the project plan develops, the department noted.

There have been warnings already about the cost of the Canadian Surface Combatant. In 2013 Auditor General Michael Ferguson released a report that said the $26 billion the Conservative government has set aside for the project is “insufficient.”

Various firms have notified the government of their interest in either working on the design of the new warships or handling the integration of the various combat systems on board.

Public Works spokeswoman Jessica Kingsbury says companies will be notified sometime in the fall whether they qualify for such work
."
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  #2  
Old 02-10-2015, 21:21
Lee Day Lee Day is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

I wonder if the specifications will call for a landing facility for Sea King choppers?
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  #3  
Old 03-10-2015, 23:15
Brian Wentzell's Avatar
Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Gentlemen: The Minister of National Defence confirmed this past week that the present funding level would only be sufficient to build between 11 and 15 Canadian Surface Combatants. He does not foresee increasing the budget until contracts are concluded once the designs are finalized. Clearly the Prime Minister is out of touch with the program.
Brian
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:04
RANFAN RANFAN is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Wonder if he really would channel funding from the F35 towards shipbuilding, somehow I don't think so as the consortiums would cancel your work share if you don't buy F35

I keep thinking of that famous line in Forrest Gump "Stupid is as stupid does"
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  #5  
Old 01-12-2015, 22:37
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

And the news keeps getting worse:

(From CBC News)

Cost to build navy's new warships more than doubles to $30B

"The price of 15 new warships for the navy has more than doubled, from $14 billion initially set aside for construction to more than $30 billion, says an independent analysis of the largest military procurement in Canadian history."

Complete article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nsps...osts-1.3345435
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  #6  
Old 09-12-2015, 01:17
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Tim: We are learning just how incompetent the political and bureaucratic procurement system was under the previous Conservative Government. It also applies to the F35 fiasco. Canada desperately needs a foreign policy review to inform an equally necessary defence policy review. Only then can a procurement policy be initiated.
Brian
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  #7  
Old 09-12-2015, 03:03
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wentzell View Post
Tim: We are learning just how incompetent the political and bureaucratic procurement system was under the previous Conservative Government. It also applies to the F35 fiasco. Canada desperately needs a foreign policy review to inform an equally necessary defence policy review. Only then can a procurement policy be initiated.
Brian
A new Defence White Paper wouldn't hurt - we haven't had one since 1994!
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  #8  
Old 24-02-2016, 19:13
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

This is quite a sea change for the Canadian navy - with the exception of submarines, we have been designing our own warships since the early 1950's:

(From CTV News)

Liberals alter course on frigate replacement and rely on foreign design

"The Trudeau government has quietly revised the framework for the navy's planned frigate replacement program, opting for a proven foreign design over a custom domestic blueprint."

Complete article here:

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/liberals-...sign-1.2790480
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  #9  
Old 25-02-2016, 08:39
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BlackBat242 BlackBat242 is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

However, this time there has been an extended break in design work -leading to a loss of knowledge and skills. Additionally, modern ship design uses a whole set of tools, procedures, and techniques (especially computerized design programs and such) which weren't around when the Halifax & even the Kingston class ships were designed in the mid 1980s and early 1990s.

This is actually something I approve of (designed by a company that is currently building just such a ship, but built in Canada) - but Canada should send a team from whatever design authority remains to the winner of the design selection to go over the designing company and go though the design and construction documents in-depth, to not only bring back knowledge of how warships are designed currently, but to prevent the kind of miscommunications and conflicts of methods experienced by Australia on the Hobart class DDGs.
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  #10  
Old 27-02-2016, 11:39
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Jon:

I actually think the right decision has been made this time. The Danes and French have good designs that are at sea and therefore are somewhat proven. The Danish ship carries weapons that Canada is familiar with. The French FREMM does not.

I think the UK Type 26 is risky as it is still in design stage. There are other designs from Germany and Spain that might qualify.

Brian
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  #11  
Old 26-05-2016, 18:22
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

A small step forward:

(From CBC News)

Warship designers, federal government huddle in Halifax on frigate replacement

"The Trudeau government is expected to soon unveil "the way forward" on the navy's multibillion-dollar frigate replacement program following a high-level meeting with companies competing to design the warships.

Government sources tell CBC News that the groundwork for a proposal request has been laid and Procurement Minister Judy Foote is expected to outline the program's vision in a speech Thursday before the annual defence industry trade show in Ottawa.

She is also likely to announce that the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy will get a new name
."

Complete article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/foot...trol-1.3600322
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  #12  
Old 26-05-2016, 23:12
Brian Wentzell's Avatar
Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Tim:I think the shipbuilding program is starting to move into its next phase. AOPS is well underway with first steel for the second ship to be cut in August 2016. The RCN has published Leadmark 2050 which sets forth the future maritime strategy and the means and ways to accomplish it through the 2016-2050 period. While it is a long document, it establishes a clear path forward that is rooted in a strategy designed to fulfill Canada's traditional and future defence imperatives.

Brian
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  #13  
Old 27-05-2016, 17:34
Domino Domino is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wentzell View Post
Jon:

I actually think the right decision has been made this time. The Danes and French have good designs that are at sea and therefore are somewhat proven. The Danish ship carries weapons that Canada is familiar with. The French FREMM does not.

I think the UK Type 26 is risky as it is still in design stage. There are other designs from Germany and Spain that might qualify.

Brian
Don't worry about the Type 26, no matter how few are made the Single Source Supplier will ensure it gets the maximum payment possible for them. And as for "untried" well the UK has plenty of experience of that

were times during the last century that UK was a world leader with a number of successful classes of ship, predominately based around the same original hull and it's logical extensions.

how the mighty have fallen in less than a lifetime, there aren't enough people to put into the few ships we have. with 2 huge aircraft carriers to provide manning for over the next couple of years it may get worse.

rgds
Dom
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  #14  
Old 25-06-2016, 02:41
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wentzell View Post
Tim:I think the shipbuilding program is starting to move into its next phase. AOPS is well underway with first steel for the second ship to be cut in August 2016. The RCN has published Leadmark 2050 which sets forth the future maritime strategy and the means and ways to accomplish it through the 2016-2050 period. While it is a long document, it establishes a clear path forward that is rooted in a strategy designed to fulfill Canada's traditional and future defence imperatives.

Brian
But will "Leadmark" still be valid after the current ongoing defence review is finalized?
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  #15  
Old 27-06-2016, 01:45
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Tim: I think you raise an important question. Time will tell. We, at RUSI(NS), are working on a presentation to the Defence Review Committee on June 28 in Halifax. I will let you now what type of reception we receive. Cdr (Ret'd) Colin Darlington will be the speaker for us.

Brian
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  #16  
Old 28-07-2016, 16:03
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

This should prove to be an interesting battle:

(From CBC News)

Backroom battle underway over new frigate design data

"A key behind-the-scenes battle, which could affect the future of the Trudeau government's multi-billion dollar frigate replacement program for decades, has been fought this week in the back rooms of Ottawa.

It relates to an overarching demand by National Defence and Public Services for ship designers to hand over virtually all their intellectual property data for the complex combat systems that would be installed on the warships.

A copy of the draft request for proposals, obtained by CBC News, shows the federal government is asking companies competing to design Canada's next generation of warships for all their foreground and background data
."

Complete article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frig...data-1.3697942
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Old 30-07-2016, 01:58
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Tim: "Interesting" will probably prove to be an understatement, the US will be a very serious stumbling block on intellectual property rights.
Brian
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  #18  
Old 25-10-2016, 19:29
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Why do I get the feeling that this process is going to turn out to be the same dog's breakfast as every other major military procurement project in the last 15 years?

(From CTV News)

Federal government to launch competition for Canada's next warship
design


"The federal government is poised to fire the starting gun on the long-awaited, multibillion-dollar race to design and build the navy's newest warships.

The competition, which involves 12 of the largest defence and shipbuilding companies in the world, is expected to be launched on Thursday after years of debate, delays and hand-wringing.
"

Complete article here:

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/federal-g...sign-1.3130610
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  #19  
Old 25-10-2016, 20:44
Lee Day Lee Day is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Let the foot dragging begin. Why are we, as a country, so notoriously bad in making decisions when it comes to the military and procurement of weapons?
It's not as if we are war mongers but we certainly deserve the right to provide the best equipment to those who we put in harms way and to defend the country as well as assisting those who are less fortunate.

Lee Day,
HMCS CRUSADER (amongst others)
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  #20  
Old 26-10-2016, 00:01
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Tim and Lee: Hopefully this means that the process will generate a real selection of the next generation combatant. Canadianization will be the real issue. The AOPS program has revealed the real challenge (and benefits) in establishing a Canadian supply chain for a Canadian designed and built ship. Buying an offshore design may produce a quicker result but the supply chain may be less efficient in the longer term, particularly if the intellectual property rights are not transferred to Canada as part of the initial contract process. The Upholder Class has taught Canada that lesson.

Brian
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  #21  
Old 26-10-2016, 16:48
Lee Day Lee Day is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

As usual Brian, you're spot on...
Lee Day
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  #22  
Old 29-10-2016, 08:15
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Canadian frigate programme update :-

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frig...tion-1.3812705
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Old 02-11-2016, 22:43
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Canada widens choice for non proven designs, allows T26 into the fight.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/...f-new-warships
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  #24  
Old 03-11-2016, 01:06
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
Canada widens choice for non proven designs, allows T26 into the fight.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/...f-new-warships
This is a direct contravention of the government's original statement that the design chosen would be "military off the shelf."

The fact that a number of senior Irving executives are ex-BAE employees and that retired RN RAdm Steve Brunton, who has ties with BAE, is acting as an "expert advisor" to the government on this project, is of course purely coincidental.

If BAE wins the bid I fear that we will end up with a poorly designed, hugely over-priced and ineffective product.

This entire business badly fails the smell test.

This article is of relevance:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...t-systems-plan
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Old 03-11-2016, 02:21
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harry.gibbon harry.gibbon is online now
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Default Re: Canadian Surface Combatant Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatari View Post
This is a direct contravention of the government's original statement that the design chosen would be "military off the shelf."
A 30 page PDF document regarding "military off the shelf" in relation to the procurement strategy for the Royal Canadian Navy’s (RCN) next generation of surface combatants, the contents of which I found extremely interesting.

ORIGINATOR
Defence Research and Development Canada – CORA 101 Colonel By Drive Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0K2

TITLE
Military off-the-shelf: A discussion on combat ship acquisition

DATE OF PUBLICATION
August 2014

ABSTRACT
The objective of this paper is to examine the theoretical and practical dimensions of military off-the-shelf (MOTS) as an element of the procurement strategy for the Royal Canadian Navy’s (RCN) next generation of surface combatants. The research was undertaken to inform the discussion of whether a MOTS solution is the most advantageous route to naval re-capitalization. The concept of MOTS is defined, followed by a non-exhaustive list of advantages and disadvantages of this approach to acquiring complex naval vessels.
A series of illustrative examples from allied and partner countries is provided. The research found that despite the many advantages offered by the MOTS approach, it is not clear that these are so decisive as to preclude other procurement options. Indeed, gaining an understanding of MOTS is not a straightforward matter, and senior decision-makers should be aware of the many internal and external factors that will affect their choice of procurement option.


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