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  #51  
Old 12-02-2015, 00:18
Brian Wentzell's Avatar
Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Pat: Will there be a brochure advertising your March 10 MMA event? The Co-Director of the Centre of Foreign Policy Studies asked if there is one that she can distribute.

Brian
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  #52  
Old 12-02-2015, 15:21
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

There was nothing planned but I could probably do something up.
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  #53  
Old 14-02-2015, 01:28
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Pat: I don't know that it needs to be too elaborate but perhaps a few lines about the topic of your presentation would be sufficient.
Brian
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  #54  
Old 14-02-2015, 17:07
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

https://maritimemuseum.novascotia.ca...e-patrol-ships

This is probably easiest.
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  #55  
Old 16-02-2015, 01:18
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Pat: Excellent. I will pass it to the CFPS folks.
Thanks,
Brian
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  #56  
Old 17-02-2015, 13:51
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Pat in Halifax Pat in Halifax is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

And this:
RCN AOPS Fact Sheet ENG 8 5x11.pdf
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  #57  
Old 17-02-2015, 20:26
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat in Halifax View Post
Many thanks for posting that Pat - good to see some of the details.

Sad to see that we are continuing the Canadian tradition of under-arming our ships. One lone 25mm gun (which the manufacturer {BAE} describes as a "machine gun") on a 6400 ton "warship?"

While the intended roles of the two classes are admittedly somewhat different, the similar sized Danish Absalon class has a rather(!) more robust anti-surface/anti-air weapons suite as follows:

1 × 127mm gun
2 × 35 mm CIWS
2 × 2 Stinger Point-defence SAM
7 × 12.7 mm HMG

It would seem to me that if the AOPS are to exert any meaningful presence during their Arctic patrols, a rather more potent main armament would be in order, as well as some (at least rudimentary) self defence capability.

While not addressed on this slide, my other concern is the 17 knot maximum speed specified (in various other sources) for these ships. Given that most commercial vessels these days are capable of speeds in excess of 20 knots, the AOPS are not going to be much use in a stern chase!

One further concern ... can't tell from the fact sheet, as it doesn't clearly show the "blunt end" of the ship ... but it would appear that there is no hangar ... can you confirm that Pat?
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  #58  
Old 17-02-2015, 23:02
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Pat: Thanks for the fact sheet.
Tim: There is a hangar for a helicopter. The real questions are: (1) its size, (2) will it house the Cyclone, and (3) will there be a maintenance capability. Perhaps Pat can speak to these questions.

Brian
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  #59  
Old 18-02-2015, 15:55
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Pat in Halifax Pat in Halifax is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

First off, the vessel was always considered more in the constabulary vice combat role-A grey CCG vessel if it makes it a little easier.

As for the helo, no traverse and securing system so for the Cyclone, speculating at just refuelling capability though the deck is strengthened and will have tie downs I assume. I am also suspecting limited maintenance.

I should caveat all the above with "I am not the spokesman for ADM(Mat) or DNR nor the SME for this vessel" but I am passing on what is common knowledge or public information.
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  #60  
Old 21-02-2015, 01:30
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Pat:

Your position is understood.

It has been said by senior government officials that vessels 2 through 6 will have a haul down and traversing system with the Harry Dewolf receiving it later. Time will tell.

The ability to house and maintain the Cyclone on board, in substituion for a light helicopter, would seem to be a worthy capability. As for a light helicopter, the only light helicopter in operational, as opposed to training service in the CAF, is the Bell 412 CF/CH146 Griffon. That helicopter is not wheel equipped and does not have folding rotor blades, which may prove a bit awkward for ease of traversing and hangaring.

Brian
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  #61  
Old 21-02-2015, 01:51
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat in Halifax View Post
First off, the vessel was always considered more in the constabulary vice combat role-A grey CCG vessel if it makes it a little easier.

As for the helo, no traverse and securing system so for the Cyclone, speculating at just refuelling capability though the deck is strengthened and will have tie downs I assume. I am also suspecting limited maintenance.

I should caveat all the above with "I am not the spokesman for ADM(Mat) or DNR nor the SME for this vessel" but I am passing on what is common knowledge or public information.
Thanks for this Pat.

Fully understand that you are not a "spokesman" - but as you are currently closer to the coalface than most of us, your insights are always pertinent, valuable and most appreciated.
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  #62  
Old 21-02-2015, 20:14
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Further to Pat's quite correct comment that "the vessel was always considered more in the constabulary vice combat role"...

The background of these ships is somewhat convoluted and it is interesting to see how the project has evolved since its original inception.

In 2006 it was announced that Canada would build “armed icebreakers” to enable us to better assert our sovereignty in Arctic waters. This concept was doomed from the start as the government soon realized that the navy doesn’t do “icebreaking” and the Coast Guard doesn’t do “armed.” The political requirement was thus changed to a patrol ship with a “limited ice capability.”

The navy was not keen on this proposal, as it feared that these ships would divert scarce funding from other more pressing needs.

Since then the project has evolved slowly into what would appear to be a near copy of the Norwegian Coast Guard Svalbard Class – which while undoubtedly a fine ship, I suspect will not fulfill either of its anticipated Canadian roles particularly well.

I think that what we are going to end up with is an absurdly expensive white elephant – and ten years from now the navy will be saying ”What are we supposed to do with these things?” We will have lumbered ourselves with four (three?) large* (see below), slow, virtually unarmed ships with (it would appear) little organic air capability – with a limited ice capability for the “Arctic” part of their role and far too large, slow, ill-equipped and expensive to employ effectively in their “Offshore Patrol” role.

I guess that’s what happens when we allow politicians to decide what equipment the navy “needs!”

*While the majority of "offshore" patrol vessels in other navies tend to range from 1000-3000 tons, the AOPS will be some 6400 tons, almost 40% larger than Canada's frigates. In terms of sheer size, this ship is a major warship, not a "patrol vessel."
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  #63  
Old 22-02-2015, 01:30
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

When the 6 ships are built, I would imagine 3 per coast. West Coast will be getting into the OP Nanook action and something with that range will be very usefull in transitting from Esquimalt to the other side of the Northwest Passage.

The Harry DeWolf class is first and foremost a patrol ship, and will be operating in the Arctic 4 or 5 months a year. When they are not doing that they will be doing fisheries, OP Carribes and everything else the RCN deems fit, much like what the Kingston class does today.

Its not a warship, but will be the RCN's eyes and ears in the Arctic. I would imagine like Labrador they will be conducting route survey operations and adding to the sorely lacking charts up there, a lot of which was done by Labrador in the 50's.

The capability to operate in 1M first year ice, is for the most part plenty during the ice free months. The RCN won't be operating there in the winter.

I have been in the Arctic a number of times and the wide varity of activities we carried out is exactly what the capabilities of the Harry DeWolf bring to the table.
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  #64  
Old 12-03-2015, 00:36
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Gentlemen: I would like to extend a well earned bravo zulu to Pat in Halifax for the fine presentation that he gave at the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic in Halifax last night (March 10, 2015) on the AOPS project. It was well attended and we all gained considerable knowledge on the scope, design, characteristics and concept of employment of the ships. They will be very useful in the development of the Arctic Ocean region of Canada.

The Harry Dewolf Class will be classified as Patrol Icebreakers (PGB) and bear pennant numbers in the 400 series according to a knowledgeable retired officer in the audience.

Brian
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  #65  
Old 15-03-2015, 22:49
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Thanks for the accolades Brian. It is nice to start being able to put names to faces. At a Command Meeting Friday, Adm Newton thanked me for doing something he now doesn't need to do!

If interested, end of the month Tuesday is BOA; a presentation originally put together for the Centennial year that I have since spruced up a little. Though not on the event calendar, next Tuesday (23rd?) is the Merchant Navy in the BOA (atleast I think that is what the email said!)

Pat
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  #66  
Old 18-03-2015, 20:32
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Pat: Is the time of the event 7 or 7:30 at the MMA?
Regards,
Brian
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  #67  
Old 18-03-2015, 20:49
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Pat in Halifax Pat in Halifax is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

So as not to hijack the thread:
https://maritimemuseum.novascotia.ca/events
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  #68  
Old 21-03-2015, 23:42
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Pat: Thanks. Maybe winter will end by then and there will be parking available.
Cheers,
Brian
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  #69  
Old 13-04-2015, 02:51
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Ship named after 100-year-old Sask war hero


Saskatchewan nurse Margaret Brooke was aboard the SS Caribou when it was torpedoed off the coast of Newfoundland on Oct. 13, 1942.

Brooke’s heroic actions in the aftermath of the ship’s sinking earned her the Order of the British Empire, making her the only Canadian nurse to receive such an honour during the Second World War.

Now Brooke, who turned 100 years old Saturday, is being honoured again. The federal government announced a Canadian Arctic patrol ship will bear her name. Construction of the HMCS Margaret Brooke is set to begin in the fall.

The Royal Canadian Navy will employ the patrol ship to conduct sovereignty and surveillance operations in Canadian waters on all three coasts, including in the Arctic, according to a federal government news release.

Brooke said in a statement Saturday she was “amazed” and “honoured” to hear about the ship being named after her. She was told personally in a phone call Friday by Minister of National Defence Jason Kenney.

On Saturday — her 100th birthday — Brooke received a visit and birthday wishes from Commodore Bob Auchterlonie, Commander Canadian Fleet Pacific,

“I was and remain very proud of my years serving in the Royal Canadian Navy and thank all who were involved in making my 100th birthday an even more memorable occasion,” Brooke said.

Kenney said in a statement the arctic/offshore patrol ships are being named after Canadian naval heroes “who displayed outstanding leadership and heroism” while serving during wartime.

“It is in fact a privilege for our country that Margaret Brooke will lend her name to one of our naval ships, as her courage and self-sacrifice have inspired, and will continue to inspire, generations of Canadian Naval personnel for years to come.”

Brooke was born in Ardath, a village located approximately 70 kilometres southwest of Saskatoon.

She enlisted in the Second World War on March 9, 1942, as a “nursing sister/dietician.” She was eventually promoted to the rank of lieutenant-commander. She was a passenger on the SS Caribou Oct. 13, 1942, as it attempted to cross the Cabot Strait off the coast of Newfoundland.

The ship was hunted and torpedoed by the German submarine U-69, according to government records. It took only five minutes for the Caribou to sink.

Submerged in the icy water, Brooke clung to a rope on a capsized life boat. She spotted friend and fellow nurse, Sub-Lt. Agnes Wilkie similarly clinging to a rope on the life boat. Wilkie, however, was weakening.

Brooke took one hand off the rope and held Wilkie. For more than two hours, Brooke kept Wilkie from drowning.

Eventually, the frigid water proved too much. Wilkie died.

Brooke was rescued, and was named a Member of the Order of the British Empire for her heroism the following year.

Brooke returned to her studies at the University of Saskatchewan. She earned a doctorate in paleontology and went on to author several major research studies in her field.

She retired to Victoria, B.C., where she still lives.
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  #70  
Old 14-04-2015, 15:46
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

The naming of the second AOPS for a living decorated Naval Nursing Sister is from World War II is very fitting.

Brian
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  #71  
Old 14-04-2015, 17:59
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wentzell View Post
The naming of the second AOPS for a living decorated Naval Nursing Sister is from World War II is very fitting.

Brian
Sorry Brian, but I couldn't disagree more.

With no disrespect intended to this courageous lady, the concept of naming RCN ships after individuals leaves me extremely angry.

For 105 years we have had a policy of naming ships after provinces, cities, towns, bays, rivers, First Nations "tribes" and the occasional battle ... and have left the Coast Guard to recognize people by their ships' names. Why we suddenly have to start following the American policy of naming naval ships after individuals is completely beyond me ... and I'm surprised the navy hasn't objected to this new policy.

Having said that, given that we now have one of these white elephants named after a man and another after a woman, the gods of political correctness will undoubtedly dictate that we ensure the remainder are named after a Francophone, a member of the First Nations and probably the Prime Minister's cat!
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  #72  
Old 14-04-2015, 19:20
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

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Originally Posted by Scatari View Post
Sorry Brian, but I couldn't disagree more.

With no disrespect intended to this courageous lady, the concept of naming RCN ships after individuals leaves me extremely angry.

For 105 years we have had a policy of naming ships after provinces, cities, towns, bays, rivers, First Nations "tribes" and the occasional battle ... and have left the Coast Guard to recognize people by their ships' names. Why we suddenly have to start following the American policy of naming naval ships after individuals is completely beyond me ... and I'm surprised the navy hasn't objected to this new policy.

Having said that, given that we now have one of these white elephants named after a man and another after a woman, the gods of political correctness will undoubtedly dictate that we ensure the remainder are named after a Francophone, a member of the First Nations and probably the Prime Minister's cat!

There has been actually 19 instances since 1910 where HMCS ships have been named after individuals so there is precedence. The RN have named ships after individuals as well so not just the US Navy.
The names were selected by the Ship's names Committee and yes there was most likely politics in place just like most of recent Warship naming. The actual MARCORD 10-2 is no longer in effect and I doubt if replacement is out yet.
I think the names are fine and yes a break from tradition. I would imagine Hampton Gray would be another name they will choose.
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  #73  
Old 14-04-2015, 19:29
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navy Stoker View Post
There has been actually 19 instances since 1910 where HMCS ships have been named after individuals so there is precedence. The RN have named ships after individuals as well so not just the US Navy.
The names were selected by the Ship's names Committee and yes there was most likely politics in place just like most of recent Warship naming. The actual MARCORD 10-2 is no longer in effect and I doubt if replacement is out yet.
I think the names are fine and yes a break from tradition. I would imagine Hampton Gray would be another name they will choose.
Navy Stoker:

Agree that the RN have named ships after individuals, as have the RAN, the Russian navy, the German navy and many others - that doesn't mean we have to.

As far as the 19 instances of us having used individuals' names for RCN ships, would be fascinated to see the list ... could you send it to me via PM?
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  #74  
Old 14-04-2015, 22:50
Geoff H. Geoff H. is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

But Tim surely you would prefer the ship to be named after this lady
rather than some snotty politico who just happens to have a position
in the government in defence but has done nothing to warrant this
honour ( like the US Navy does)
Geoff
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  #75  
Old 15-04-2015, 00:24
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff H. View Post
But Tim surely you would prefer the ship to be named after this lady
rather than some snotty politico who just happens to have a position
in the government in defence but has done nothing to warrant this
honour ( like the US Navy does)
Geoff
Absolutely Geoff ... but so far, thank the good Lord, our navy has avoided any and all "political" names and hopefully will continue to do so.

I just object to naming warships after people, no matter who they are.

Sadly, like everything else which has happened to our armed forces in recent years, this is undoubtedly driven by politics, with zero attention being paid to tradition.
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