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  #1  
Old 29-10-2011, 13:24
derek s.langsdon derek s.langsdon is offline
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Default Canadian Victoria Class Submarines.

From "The Ottawa Citizen" October 27th,2011.

"The Federal Government is considering mothballing some or all of it's four British-made Victoria-class submarines, It was reported on CBS News Thursday night.
Defence Minister Peter Mackay said that nuclear submarines may be the way to go for Canada

Public reaction, particularly regarding the cost, running to five or six billion Canadian dollars would not be good'

The Victoria Class submarine has been the subject of much debate in Canada following HMCS Corner Brook being damaged when it hit the ocean floor in June. It is in dock for repair and overhaul but is not expected back to sea un til 2016.

HMCS Chicoulimi,damaged by a fire in 2004 that killed one officer,still remains sidelined, leaving only HMCS Windsor and HMCS Victoria, which are also not presently available for duty.,but according to Navy spokesman
Lt.Cmdr.Brian Owens should be back at sea early in 2012.

derek-L

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  #2  
Old 29-10-2011, 14:50
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
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Exclamation Re: Canada may mothball Victoria-class subs'.

thank you for your interesting post Derek.
As an addendum to it-some information and details about this class of boat; along with existing service history.

jainso31
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upholde...lass_submarine
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  #3  
Old 29-10-2011, 15:52
derek s.langsdon derek s.langsdon is offline
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Default Re: Canada may mothball Victoria-class subs'.

Many thanks that very informative background including the paragraph on Canada...I see that since my posting- Defense Minister Mckay says they NOT contemplating Nuclear (not enough in the bank)...and that we now have had
excellent exchanges on the "Chicoutimi" following KC's posting under that heading
with my regards

derek-L
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  #4  
Old 29-10-2011, 23:43
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Default Re: Canada may mothball Victoria-class subs'.

Well I really hope that next year will still see at least Windsor and Victoria back in service. I am probably now in a minority but I still believe them to be fine diesel submarines.
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  #5  
Old 30-10-2011, 02:43
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Default Re: Canada may mothball Victoria-class subs'.

To be totally honest here, Canada can no longer rely on British ingenuity and quality. Those submarines are nothing short of disgraceful and it's no wonder Canadian public opinion, among those who even care, is well down regarding the purchase of warships from 'abroad'. Once bitten, twice shy.

A shipment of I*XL pocket knives would be welcomed though. The folks in Sheffield still seem to have their act together.

The Americans have pretty much cut us off from their high-tech military stuff, yet we're the first country they call on when they need help and we're the first to respond. I guess we're on our own from here on in.

Monty, calling it as I see it, and with malice toward none.
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  #6  
Old 14-11-2011, 18:58
iantait iantait is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

seemed to work well enough in the RN
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  #7  
Old 14-11-2011, 22:25
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

A very good point Ian. At least some of the misfortune that seem to have dogged this class of submarine since being sold to Canada cannot be regarded as the fault of the boats!
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  #8  
Old 14-11-2011, 23:43
RANFAN RANFAN is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

Wonder if the Canadians would be interested in the next generation submarine being designed in Australia, hopefully we will get the 12 Rudd sub from 2025 or may build the current design with a different power pack considering the problems with Hedemora diesels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins...cement_project

Building a hi-tech submarine their is bound to be problems if Australia and Canada join in the design and build in their prospective shipyards it might be a win-win for both our nations
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/r...-02/02RP03.htm
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo6/...-marin-eng.asp

I think the problems from RN service to RCN service was the amount of time between sitting neglected for several years, Australia looked at these as well whist Collins was being designed as a stopgap but on inspecting ran away from them as fast as we could.
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  #9  
Old 15-11-2011, 01:54
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

RanFan: For once (some would say) your guys did the right thing! Pity, we Canadians could not have talked to your folk. Salt water in the diesel fuel tanks for several years should have been a clue for our guys.

Regards,
Brian
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  #10  
Old 15-11-2011, 02:50
RANFAN RANFAN is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wentzell View Post
RanFan: For once (some would say) your guys did the right thing! Pity, we Canadians could not have talked to your folk. Salt water in the diesel fuel tanks for several years should have been a clue for our guys.

Regards,
Brian

Their are a lot of hard lessons learnt when building the Collins class and the remedial action needed to get Collins to where they are today, but it remains to be seen if the pollies have learnt to keep their nose out of some thing they know little about and get contracts that arenít wishy washy and everyone knows what is expected of them, put huge financial penalties in the contracts and I bet they donít stuff you around and deliver what they say they can deliver.
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  #11  
Old 15-11-2011, 14:49
Shinysheff Shinysheff is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

From what I've read the Collins class aren't in much better shape than the Victorias. It is a disgrace the way the Upholders have ended up, it 'should' have been a great deal for Canada.
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  #12  
Old 15-11-2011, 16:18
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

Alas I'm no expert on submarines, however there does seem to be two schools of opinion on the Upholder class - I would like to read the opinions some of our own more knowledgeable members on the matter.

So come on then submariners - "let's be 'avin you"
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T
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  #13  
Old 15-11-2011, 19:44
iantait iantait is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

the upholder boats were built for the RN and when the requirements changed and our O boats (I'm only speculating here) were getting to the end of service life as we only built 4 we opted out of them.I think each one only did 1 commission.maybe Canada were a bit hasty and didn't really look to see if they were what they really wanted and jumped in feet first.They would probably have been better going for the swedes choices but the price probably sealed the deal I do hope they turn out all right in the end though. Ian
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  #14  
Old 15-11-2011, 19:57
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

The Canadian governments have for the past few decades been reluctant to actually spend real money on the Forces. The navy was left with a great number of older vessels, which in their prime were excellent. However, technology advances and age made them shadows of their former selves. When the O-boats were decomissioned the government of the day jumped at the Upholder class to replace them. Same political party which brought in Integration in the late 1960s, scraped HMCS Bonaventure (after a multi-million dollar refit)in 1970, had the 280s and Halifax class frigates built and then cancelled the building program - allowing a large ship building talent pool to move away. Anyone else seeing a pattern here??
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  #15  
Old 15-11-2011, 22:21
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

I still think Canada should stay with it and make good use of at least 3 of them.
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  #16  
Old 15-11-2011, 23:00
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harry.gibbon harry.gibbon is online now
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teuchter View Post
Alas I'm no expert on submarines, however there does seem to be two schools of opinion on the Upholder class - I would like to read the opinions some of our own more knowledgeable members on the matter.

So come on then submariners - "let's be 'avin you"
T

Try some of this:-
---------
Commander Jonathan (Jonty) Powis left the Royal Navy in 2006 after 32 years service mostly in submarines.

He specialised in navigation, saw action in the Falklands conflict in HMS Conqueror and subsequently commanded the Diesel Submarine HMS Unseen and the strategic missile submarines HM ships Resolution and Victorious.
---------

Taken from:-

http://www.rnsubs.co.uk/Community/Fo...prev_next=next

Little h
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  #17  
Old 15-11-2011, 23:34
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

Harry: Cdr. Powis speaks from his time as CO of a nearly new submarine and undoubtedly HMS Unseen worked to his satisfaction.

Most of the problems faced by Canada seem to relate to two subsequent events. First, none of the four boats were mothballed in any proper sense. They were not stored in a dehumidified state or an operational state. Fuel tanks were filled with sea water so running of the main machinery and systems were not possible. Second, none of the boats ever underwent deep maintenance and therefore one of the big Canadian challenges has been doing the first deep maintenance work period on each boat. There was no experienced RN hands to draw upon.

Another factor has been the need to source spares for an orphan class. The supply chain has had to be recreated. In addition the decision to refit the boats to handle American torpedoes and a Singer Librascope fire control system has proven to be another source of delay and extra cost even though both were salvaged from the decommissioned Oberon Class submarines.

In short, I think the Canadian Navy did not understand what they had purchased. What looked like a good deal from a purchase price perspective has become a nightmare from an engineering view.

The four boats have operated about 900 days (about 2.5 years) out of a combined 37 years of Canadian ownership. This is not good news from a performance perspective.

While the Commander of the Navy remains steadfast in his defence of the submarines, the taxpayer is getting weary and the credibility of the RCN is at risk. This is a real worry to those of us who support the maintenance of a credible flexible navy that can operate in our three oceans and beyond when necessary.

Regards,
Brian
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  #18  
Old 16-11-2011, 08:53
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Teuchter Teuchter is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry.gibbon View Post
T

Try some of this:-
---------
Commander Jonathan (Jonty) Powis left the Royal Navy in 2006 after 32 years service mostly in submarines.

He specialised in navigation, saw action in the Falklands conflict in HMS Conqueror and subsequently commanded the Diesel Submarine HMS Unseen and the strategic missile submarines HM ships Resolution and Victorious.
---------

Taken from:-

http://www.rnsubs.co.uk/Community/Fo...prev_next=next

Little h
Thanks h - very informative.
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T
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  #19  
Old 17-11-2011, 23:59
Ex-Dragoon Ex-Dragoon is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

What we need is someone that can sell why the RCN needs submarines better then the CMS has been doing. Oh I know he is doing his best but he is falling short on relaying to Joe Taxpayer why we as a maritime nation need subs.
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  #20  
Old 18-11-2011, 22:35
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astraltrader astraltrader is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wentzell View Post
Harry: Cdr. Powis speaks from his time as CO of a nearly new submarine and undoubtedly HMS Unseen worked to his satisfaction.

Most of the problems faced by Canada seem to relate to two subsequent events. First, none of the four boats were mothballed in any proper sense. They were not stored in a dehumidified state or an operational state. Fuel tanks were filled with sea water so running of the main machinery and systems were not possible. Second, none of the boats ever underwent deep maintenance and therefore one of the big Canadian challenges has been doing the first deep maintenance work period on each boat. There was no experienced RN hands to draw upon.

Another factor has been the need to source spares for an orphan class. The supply chain has had to be recreated. In addition the decision to refit the boats to handle American torpedoes and a Singer Librascope fire control system has proven to be another source of delay and extra cost even though both were salvaged from the decommissioned Oberon Class submarines.

In short, I think the Canadian Navy did not understand what they had purchased. What looked like a good deal from a purchase price perspective has become a nightmare from an engineering view.

The four boats have operated about 900 days (about 2.5 years) out of a combined 37 years of Canadian ownership. This is not good news from a performance perspective.

While the Commander of the Navy remains steadfast in his defence of the submarines, the taxpayer is getting weary and the credibility of the RCN is at risk. This is a real worry to those of us who support the maintenance of a credible flexible navy that can operate in our three oceans and beyond when necessary.

Regards,
Brian
Some very good points you made there Brian.

Do you have any idea what [very roughly] the subs have cost Canada so far and also what [again very roughly] would be a ball-park figure of the cost to purchase 4 new diesel subs today?? [just curious]

I expect I am probably asking a lot with this question but I feel it would be an interesting comparison....
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  #21  
Old 18-11-2011, 23:33
RANFAN RANFAN is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

Australian replacement budget for Collins class for 12 sub is running up to 25 Billion AUD, their has been talk of the current Virginia class in 2009 running at 1.8 Billion USD(Wiki), but a recent article in one of the main stream newspaper (cannot remember which one) recommended that we abandon the replacement sub and buy Virginia class that are costing the USN approx 1 billion per vessel, sounds good but with no indigenous nuclear industries in Australia(ANSTO Lucas Heights) it would easily meet the 25 Billion set aside as we have no infrastructure to handle nuclear powered ship or boats or the political will.

With hindsight Canada would have been better to go with a Collins for a conventional submarine, but reality for Canada would have been 4 Los Angeles class for their long voyages under the ice and their closeness to American infrastructure for maintenance issues
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  #22  
Old 20-11-2011, 01:22
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Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

Terry and RANFAN: Thanks for the questions and information, respectively. On the issue of what have the four Victoria/Upholder class cost Canada: the figure being talked about by unofficial sources is about CAD 3 Billion when all is done. The original purchase price was about CAD 850 Million with perhaps the full cost being less than CAD 2 Billion.

Without any infrastructure spending, the purchase price of four Virginia Class SSNs would be at least USD 4 Billion. Canada has no technical ability to support nuclear submarines and that would be a show stopper. In any event I don't see Canadians supporting the purchase idea.

By the way HMS Unseen became HMCS Corner Brook and until her recent underwater grounding was the best running boat of the four. She spent about 26% of her Canadian days at sea.

Brian
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  #23  
Old 22-11-2011, 04:04
RANFAN RANFAN is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

Current Virginia class nuclear submarine have a diesel Ėelectric back up system capable of power all the systems on the submarine, from what I have read on the class they also have the snorkel fitted to recharge the batteries. If the space for the nuclear propulsion system was deleted wonder how that would affect the boat.

Reading on about next generation of batteries for the Collins submarine replacement future generation batteries will be smaller and hold their charge for longer period of times. If this is correct then fewer batteries would be needed for the same level of endurance which will produce more room inside of the boat for the proposed operation of small UUV operating from Collins replacement submarine. If the space set aside from the nuclear propulsion system it also might be able to house small UUV from the area, a naval architect would have a better idea if this was achievable or not.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=7145
http://www.asc.com.au/aspx/submarine...of_future.aspx
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  #24  
Old 22-11-2011, 12:54
Brian Wentzell's Avatar
Brian Wentzell Brian Wentzell is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

RANFAN: You have contemplated something that is not entirely novel. As a matter of interest, some naval officers note that the Upholder/Victoria Class SSK was a conventional version of the Trafalgar Class SSN in terms of many of its combat systems and hull design. That is not to say the concept was bad but perhaps it has yet to reach a state of maturity.

Brian
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  #25  
Old 22-11-2011, 16:49
davep davep is offline
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Default Re: Canada May Mothball Victoria-Class Submarines.

i was working in faslane at the time upholder was doing her trials and there were a lot of snags reported and although most were sorted out i beleive there was some serious ones to do with either the torpedo loading or the tubes themselves.
after a few incidents she was always escorted when going diving and although i beleive most of the problems were just first of class snags they were sorted out but we probably didnt operate them for long enough to iron out all the problems which is what the canadians are now coming up against.

Just my take on things as i'm a tuperware sailor myself based at faslane

Dave
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