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  #26  
Old 13-03-2017, 09:19
jupiter jupiter is offline
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Thumbs up Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Hello, still hunting, I have been told by my group not to be so enthusiastic but I can't help myself! They want to wait until nearer 2018 to start the work for our next exhibition but I believe if we do that we will get absolutely nowhere!
Can anyone give me more information on the book 'Der Tag' as there seems to be lots of variations which include these words in their title but are not relevant. Author or publisher or something so I can refine my search. Thank you.
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  #27  
Old 13-03-2017, 11:48
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Jupiter,

There is nothing wrong with enthusiasm, so long as it is well directed.

However, I now think that you are a little confused. "Der Tag" is not a book: what you seem to be referring to is the diagram of the formation of ships involved in the surrender to internment of the German ships that the Allies demanded.

I have learned since your first appeal for information that there are a number of variations of the diagram. I strongly recommend that you direct your enquiry to the National Maritime and Imperial War Museums for accurate information. I further advise that you tell the addressees exactly what your heritage group intend to do with the information as the person answering your enquiry could get "sticky" if they think that what you are after might find its way onto the Web with no redress later.

GK
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  #28  
Old 19-01-2018, 12:02
jupiter jupiter is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Hello all, update on where we are at the moment, if anyone is wondering. Firstly thank you for pointing out that "Der Tag" is a diagram and not a book. I misinterpreted some information I was given and rereading it I see that I was wrong with this. I still have not sourced a copy but the diagrams offered here on this forum were very helpful.
Our research is about to begin in earnest now, with a small team concentrating on the Surrender, however we are now working in partnership with another group in a nearby town, who are also seriously concentrating on this, so we are trying to make sure we do not duplicate information. (This is just going to be part of our exhibition, with other topics related to 1918 - 1919 included).
Rest assured, once our research is on exhibiton, I will share it with this group. I have been using this forum for several years now and have always found it helpful and have always shared any of my final findings if they are worthy.
Norma
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  #29  
Old 21-01-2018, 01:35
TCC TCC is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Jupiter,
I have had a quick look and the US 6th Battle Squadron was a part of the Royal Navies Grand Fleet from early Dec 1917 onwards. Initially they arrived at Scapa Flow but would have gone on to the Forth at some point.
On the day of surrender, they were with the Grand Fleet so most probably they set off and returned to the Forth.

I had included a plan of the German ships in the Forth, did you see a copy? IMHO the value particularily for you is in where they are in the river, while the names and their order maybe is of lesser value? If you need to see it sing out and i'll PM you a copy though it may be easier if someone else has a copy to share already on their PC and they send it.
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  #30  
Old 21-01-2018, 02:11
TCC TCC is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

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Originally Posted by Grosser Kreuzer View Post
Jupiter

...

However, I now think that you are a little confused. "Der Tag" is not a book:..

I have learned since your first appeal for information that there are a number of variations of the diagram.

GK
Hi GK
Did you find an accurate arrangement of the ships? Is your problem that with 4 versions, you don't know which is correct?

The OP should google "operation zz" as that was the plan under which the RN went out to meet the Germans and escort them in, and it includes a chart showing how own ships were arranged and where in the Forth the Germans were to be anchored.

I have more bits and pieces on this but alas they are at least 2 laptops ago and I was never timely at data back-ups.

Good Luck
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  #31  
Old 25-01-2018, 13:34
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

TCC,

PM please.

GK
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  #32  
Old 28-01-2018, 19:52
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Following a post by VirtualF on another thread about the British Film Institute, I did a little bit of searching and came across this historical film footage of the German surrender at Rosyth:
Unedited footage of the surrender of the German fleet and the visit of King George V and the Prince of Wales to USS New York at Rosyth, Fife. The USS New York was part of the American naval forces sent to reinforce the British fleet towards the end of World War I.
On closer inspection of the film, it appears to be inverted as a close up view of HMS Walker reveals her name and pennant number are reversed, whilst the lifebelt on HMS Verdun is similarly displayed. Also, the King is shaking hands with his right hand and not the left as the film would have you believe.
However, at 15 minutes, there is some decent footage of that misty day back in 1918.

Jim
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  #33  
Old 29-01-2018, 12:54
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Jim,

Very many thanks for posting this.

I can back up your warning that the item appears to be inverted: HINDENBURG's 10metre steam boat was on her port side, not the starboard as in the film and it shows all the German ships with their sheet anchors on the starboard side (on the port in reality). However, it does confirm one thing, the order of steaming for the battle-cruisers was SEYDLITZ, MOLTKE, HINDENBURG and DERFFLINGER, with the "canteen boat" von der TANN; though HMS INDEFATIGABLE would not thank me for that dismissive remark, bringing up the rear.

This will no doubt interest Jupiter and one other location I am in contact with.

GK
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  #34  
Old 29-01-2018, 15:57
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

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Originally Posted by Grosser Kreuzer View Post
Jim,

Very many thanks for posting this.

I can back up your warning that the item appears to be inverted: HINDENBURG's 10metre steam boat was on her port side, not the starboard as in the film and it shows all the German ships with their sheet anchors on the starboard side (on the port in reality). However, it does confirm one thing, the order of steaming for the battle-cruisers was SEYDLITZ, MOLTKE, HINDENBURG and DERFFLINGER, with the "canteen boat" von der TANN; though HMS INDEFATIGABLE would not thank me for that dismissive remark, bringing up the rear.

This will no doubt interest Jupiter and one other location I am in contact with.

GK
I have contacted BFI and they are now aware of the problem with the film. Hopefully, they will correct the error in due course.

Jim
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  #35  
Old 31-01-2018, 13:27
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Jim,

Power to your elbow and thanks again.

I looked at the footage of the event that is held by the Imperial War Museum a couple of years back for some specific information. The amount is nowhere near as comprehensive as that in the 15 minute clip posted.

GK
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  #36  
Old 31-01-2018, 13:47
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Very clear footage, pity it's reversed. One thing I picked up was the visibility wasn't very good. The escorting ships were only just visible. May have been better as the went farther up river.
Jim
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  #37  
Old 31-01-2018, 19:21
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

One thing I noted from that film that I had never thought about:

The German ships are correctly flying courtesy flags from the starboard signalling position

Correct though it may be, it still seems almost surprising in the context
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  #38  
Old 31-01-2018, 19:31
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Well i'm glad you said that Rupert , I also noticed it but thought better of commenting.... with so many other knowledgable members viewing , thank you for mentioning it .....interesting thread
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  #39  
Old 01-02-2018, 10:07
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
One thing I noted from that film that I had never thought about:

The German ships are correctly flying courtesy flags from the starboard signalling position

Correct though it may be, it still seems almost surprising in the context
I couldn't decide whether the flags were the old German ensign or a White Ensign. Looking at one in particular I decided they were all the German ensign. If only I had a larger screen

Jim
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  #40  
Old 01-02-2018, 11:12
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Jim, I just looked again and I'm sure they are the white ensign.. Look at the smaller ships from 06:10 to 06:40. There is no sign of the eagle in the middle that would indicate the German naval ensign (though I admit the union flag segment is still unclear).

Also it would be the wrong place to fly their own ensign would it not.
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  #41  
Old 01-02-2018, 16:13
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

You could be right Rupert but I looked at the view of the ship around 4mins 8 secends and the "cross" on the ensign didn't look straight enough lines and broader stripes, but that could be because of it fluttering about

Jim
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File Type: jpg ensign.jpg (19.1 KB, 14 views)
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  #42  
Old 02-02-2018, 14:12
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

At the risk of being seen as "reeled in" by what may be a deliberate "wind up," by following correspondents to Rupert's first post, I can assure both him and all other contributors that the ships between 0.00 and 6.30 are not, repeat, not flying courtesy ensigns from their (Starboard: Port actually) signalling positions; which should be more properly referred to as the main mast yard-arm. They are in fact flying the old Imperial war flag from the gaffs of their main masts; which in most cases (except certainly, that of HINDENBURG) were rigged to lay horizontal. Do look again as the inclinations of the ships change!

No offence but one reason why the central device of the German war flag cannot be seen is the amount of soot staining so many of them.

GK
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  #43  
Old 02-02-2018, 16:19
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Must agree about the soot GK, one of the flags looks to be black.

Jim
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  #44  
Old 05-02-2018, 14:57
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

Well, after 28 years in the fire and rescue service at least you managed to recognise that, Jim
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  #45  
Old 05-02-2018, 16:23
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Default Re: German Grand Fleet ships in Forth 1918

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Originally Posted by Grosser Kreuzer View Post
Well, after 28 years in the fire and rescue service at least you managed to recognise that, Jim
I was noted for my observational powers

Jim
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