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  #1  
Old 12-01-2008, 03:40
The Sailor's Avatar
The Sailor The Sailor is offline
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Default HMAS Sydney II D48 (1934-1941)

When the inexperienced new captain of HMAS Sydney placed her alongside the Kormoran that day in 1941, it is my opinion that it was the greatest public service blunder in Australian history.

During the last few years it has seen search after search carried out to find her last resting place. So called naval buffs claim that she was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine that day which was 17 days before Pearl Harbor.
They want to find the wreck to see they say. I'd say if they ever do find it, it will have torpedo damage because the Kormoran had underwater torpedo tubes and they were fired.

Last year I had cause to visit Carnarvon in Western Australia. This town is the closest inhabited area to where the naval battle took place. From Carnarvon that day they could hear it.
When I went to the local museum, I got a big surprise. There was one of the lifeboats from the Kormoran in the railway museum at the beginning of the jetty.
This lifeboat of Kormoran's survivors appeared at the jetty after the battle on the morning of 20 Nov 1941.
They were placed under arrest and sent south to Perth.

I enclose the photos I took.
My opinion is that this valuable historical object should not be in that unattended museum in Carnarvon, it should be in the Frematle Maritime Museum. Even the jetty caught alight up there a few months ago.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Picture 50674.jpg (66.9 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg Picture 50675.jpg (59.0 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Picture 50676.jpg (49.6 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg Picture 50677.jpg (65.4 KB, 19 views)

Last edited by The Sailor : 12-01-2008 at 03:51.
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  #2  
Old 12-01-2008, 21:42
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

True Sailor. The loss of Sydney was our biggest naval loss of the war and the mystery that surrounds it still causes much discussion.
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  #3  
Old 12-01-2008, 21:47
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

Marrinup POW Camp Site - Dwellingup

Recently I drove down to see the site of the prison camp where the Germans from the Kormoran were taken.
A lot of it is still there including the old parade ground with the name of the camp spelled out in old white painted rocks.
Hut foundations and water tanks etc.
If one looks at the thick scrub there, you can see why there weren't any escapes.
Number sixteen prisoner of war compound and garrison, was built at Marrinup, 83km south of Perth, it was the only Prisoner of War Camp in Western Australia and accommodated 1,200.

Herk, I'd be interested to know if as an Australian, did you know that lifeboat was in Carnarvon?

And with that, we are off to church. It is Sunday morning here for C of Es.

Last edited by The Sailor : 12-01-2008 at 21:49.
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  #4  
Old 12-01-2008, 23:11
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

I didn't know Sailor. And I agree, it would be better placed in Freo.

It's a great shame that so little of Sydney was ever found afterwards too. It might have helped understand what happened.
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  #5  
Old 13-01-2008, 03:31
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The Sailor The Sailor is offline
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

Frankly I'm amazed that such a valuable artifact is left up there in that bloody railway shed. I'm going to write some letters about it.
If the State government can't rip it off the Carvarvon Town Council then maybe Canberra War Museum can.

Last edited by The Sailor : 13-01-2008 at 05:52.
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  #6  
Old 14-01-2008, 21:10
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Alan B Alan B is offline
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

Sydney getting a cheer from the Eagle after her action with the Itilian ship.
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  #7  
Old 16-03-2008, 18:53
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Commodore Armiger Commodore Armiger is offline
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney (II)

There are two good sites about the WWII Sydney and its tragic loss:

http://www.navy.gov.au/spc/history/ships/sydney2.html

http://www.navy.gov.au/spc/history/ships/sydney2a.html

as well as a site dedicated to the search:

http://www.findingsydney.com/

Today's BBC News site says that an Australian search team has located the site of the wreck of DKM Kormoran, the German merchant cruiser that sank Sydney (and was itself sunk in the same action).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7299425.stm

So perhaps, nearly 70 years on, the RAN and the descendants of the 645 seamen who died, will soon be able to honour their dead at the very spot where the action took place.
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  #8  
Old 17-03-2008, 11:54
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

For further news about locating the wreck of the Kormoran including some interesting sonar images please visit - http://www.worldnavalships.com/forum...ted=1#post7166
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  #9  
Old 17-03-2008, 12:49
DJBlackburn DJBlackburn is offline
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Default They've Found Her!

26° 14’ 37” S 111° 13’ 03” E

Approximately 10 nautical miles from the scene of battle and 12 nm from the wreck of Kormoran.

Initial reports indicate she is upright, resting on a smooth, flat expanse of seabed, with a section of her bow broken off. It is believed this bow section was the event that finally caused her to sink after she turned course away from the German raider, terribly damaged and afire.

ROV operations are next and, if released, should provide some spectacular images of the ship, itself.

What a find, what an effort, and what a team BWR and David Mearns has, doing the job in an appreciably shorter time than planned for!
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  #10  
Old 17-03-2008, 20:00
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: They've Found Her!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJBlackburn View Post
What a find, what an effort, and what a team BWR and David Mearns has, doing the job in an appreciably shorter time than planned for!
I'll second that motion with gusto, except I'll add an S to the word 'find(s)'

K
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  #11  
Old 17-03-2008, 20:57
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Maritime Michael Ian Maritime Michael Ian is offline
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

Really Great news.... I had an e-mail from a former colleague of mine in Melbourne today, telling me of the double find. Will ultimately help the families finally come to terms with her loss. Amazing what modern ROV technology now can do!.... first Titanic, then HMS Hood, Hitler's Reichsmarine Bismark, now HMAS Sydney!

Ian
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  #12  
Old 17-03-2008, 21:46
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

The man who led the discovery is the same man who found the Bismark.
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  #13  
Old 18-03-2008, 06:10
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritime Michael Ian View Post
Amazing what modern ROV technology now can do!....
Hi Ian,

Actually, as far as I am aware, up to this point it has been side scan sonar technology they have used exclusively. ROV dives are still to come. And they are two VERY different systems/technologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herakles View Post
The man who led the discovery is the same man who found the Bismark.
Hi Herakles,

This not technically correct and without meaning to be rude, aggravates me somewhat when I see it written. Make no mistake, Robert Ballard DISCOVERED Bismarck, Mearns, all credit to him, just refound her some years later (with no help/input from Ballard). So yes he found Bismark but...................

Mearns, as much as I admire him, is kinda like the 2nd man on the moon in my opinion as regards Bismark. A great accomplishment, but the the credits should got to Ballard and Ballard alone for discovering/finding Bismark.

Sorry all, but it gets my goat to see credit not been given in the correct quarter, and it just happens all to often re Bismark, even if unintentionally. And no offence meant Herakles.

K
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  #14  
Old 18-03-2008, 09:28
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

An important correction Kev. I was quoting from a Melbourne newspaper.

Credit where credit's due!

For all that, I wouldn't have minded being the second man on the Moon.
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  #15  
Old 18-03-2008, 11:45
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

Quote:
Originally Posted by herakles View Post
Credit where credit's due!

For all that, I wouldn't have minded being the second man on the Moon.
I hear you, but.................you'd be surprised when asked how many people actually remember who that was. (Hence my use of that 'term' in places.)

Am also surprised that in all the years I have never once heard Mearns give Ballard the credit when people refer to him (Mearns) as the person who 'discovered' Bismark. Given he has so many other worthwhile 'finds' to his credit, and two more now to add, I find that odd. (However i do believe their is no love lost between the to gents.)

K
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  #16  
Old 18-03-2008, 11:49
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batstiger View Post
I can't remember whether I have put this one up before or not!.
Hi Bob,

Assume you realise that your's is a different Sydney to the one they just found (below)?

K
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File Type: jpg Sydney.jpg (104.5 KB, 76 views)
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  #17  
Old 18-03-2008, 12:14
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

Folks, attached for those not so familiar with the beautiful land down under and just where they located the two ships.

Please note 'map' from newspaper has some(?) inaccuracies it seems. (But blame me for any inaccuracy in other two.)

So not vouching for newspaper 'maps' accuracy by any means, it's just to give some folks a general idea of what, seemingly, has been going on, and what they 'think' happened.

The caveat is that, basically, anything the media touches should be treated with a grain of salt!

PS. My understanding from what I have read elsewhere is that Kormoran wreck is northish of battle area (where the very big piece of wreckage 33m x 19 x 13 was found) and Sydney wreck southeast, whereas the way this map portrays it, the battle area is to the north of both wrecks more or less. Somehow I 'think' the first version is correct but......................................what do I know.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg K and S locations.jpg (98.8 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg K & S expanded.jpg (126.2 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg Local paper 'chart' copy.jpg (115.6 KB, 31 views)
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  #18  
Old 18-03-2008, 19:47
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

I've seen that 2nd photo before but just where? I'll see if I can find it.

In the meantime, here is a link to the Australian War Memorial and their description of the fight between Sydney and the Kormoran:

http://www.awm.gov.au/Encyclopedia/h...ney/action.htm

And here is a link to another site. There's some good photos here and a description of the memorial at Geraldton:

http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/waratsea/HMASsydney.html
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  #19  
Old 18-03-2008, 20:11
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

I've seen that 2nd photo before but just where? I'll see if I can find it.

In the meantime, here is a link to the Australian War Memorial and their description of the fight between Sydney and the Kormoran:

http://www.awm.gov.au/Encyclopedia/h...ney/action.htm

And here's another official link including a good description of the memorial at Geraldton:

http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/waratsea/HMASsydney.html

This is a video tribute, albeit with annoying music (some good photos):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgtMaZVDcL4

This link is to the Roll of Honour of the ship's crew: http://findingsydney.com/roll.asp

This link is a story of the Sydney's school teacher:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...602384157.html
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  #20  
Old 20-03-2008, 04:42
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

Here's another link given several stories of interest:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/ind...016633,00.html
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  #21  
Old 24-03-2008, 22:40
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

HMAS Sydney search vessel SV Geosounder has been delayed in Geraldton for a night as its crew perform extensive tests on its underwater video equipment.
The ship, which was due to leave Geraldton yesterday, is expected to set a course for the wrecks of HMAS Sydney and HSK Kormoran before lunch today.

Finding Sydney Foundation director Patrick Flynn said last night: "We are still conducting wet testing of the remotely operated vehicle this evening.
"As you can imagine, with a piece of machinery which operates at depths of up to 3000 metres, it is under tremendous pressure so we want to make sure it is functioning perfectly.

"The team is working around the clock and it's likely she (the Geosounder) will be off late tomorrow morning."

The Geosounder and its 33 crew are expected to be at sea for two weeks as they film the wreckage of Sydney, Kormoran and the site of the battle between the two ships on November 19, 1941.

The crew will use remote-controlled video technology imported from Norway to inspect the wrecks and provide families and relatives of the 645 men lost when the Sydney went down with a visual memorial to their loved ones.

The foundation has promised not to release photos or footage of sailors' remains.
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  #22  
Old 31-03-2008, 08:21
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

Some more information:

The Australian Govt. has announced a full scale inquiry into the battle between Sydney and Kormoran and the eventual fate of both ships.

And this is a video of the discovery:

http://www.abc.net.au/corp/pubs/media/s2192666.htm
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  #23  
Old 04-04-2008, 04:27
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

The first photos have been released.

The first seven images, now available on the Finding Sydney Foundation website, were taken yesterday by a special remotely-operated submersible deployed from the survey vessel Geosounder.

One shows a gun turret with a shell hole clearly visible between the two guns.

Another shows a gun turret with wreckage strewn over it, while a further photo shows a section of the deck with teak decking remarkably intact.

Mr Mearns says the wreck is sitting upright on the sea floor with its guns pointing to port.

The Sydney appeared to have hit the seabed stern first, he said.

"Both funnels and masts were gone and all the lifeboats were missing from their cradle stands but all four turrets were retained in place,'' he said.

"As per the German accounts, the bridge and superstructure of Sydney withstood the worst damage as the heavy guns of Kormoran clearly had a devastating effect.

"The bow was gone just forward of A turret in keeping with the torpedo strike in this location.''

Naval historian John Perryman, also an observer, says several large shell holes can be seen in the side of the ship above the waterline.

The bridge and superstructure had suffered severe punishment, he said.

"Both the director-control tower and high-angle control station behind the compass platform were gone and the bridge was completely devastated.''

Nothing remained of the Sydney forward of the first gun turret.

"The damage in this area showed signs of what may have been a violent explosion as the deck had been rent upwards and folded up over the gun barrels of A turret,'' Mr Perryman said.

"The ship's side of Sydney in this area had been peeled back too and this could have been the result of the Kormoran's torpedo hit on her.''
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sydney1.jpg (48.5 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg B turret.jpg (9.9 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg Y turret.jpg (56.3 KB, 18 views)
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  #24  
Old 05-04-2008, 19:04
herakles
 
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

This article: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/...249460459.html

discusses the strange fact that the photos are showing an absence of life boats. This raises several issues about the fate of the crew. If we believe the Kormoran survivors who stated that Sydney took 6 hours to sink, it seems odd that no-one survived.

I'm not posting any more updates here. It's clear that no-one is interested in them. Judging by the complete absence of any comments.
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  #25  
Old 06-04-2008, 15:09
Maritime Michael Ian's Avatar
Maritime Michael Ian Maritime Michael Ian is offline
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Default Re: HMAS Sydney

I think Herakles that unless one has lived in Oz and had some knowledge of the RAN, and hence "Sydney" it's possible that one Empire/Commonwealth ship is very much like another for people over here. I of course became interested because of my Oz residency at onetime also my RANR connection. The first photos are interesting, and it would be interesting to see the rest of her, as she sits. What you say about the absence of lifeboats....as a guess, would it not have been conceivable that with the amount of punishment that she appeared to have taken that the boats may/would have been blown away?? What d'you reckon??

Ian
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