World Naval Ships Forums  
CURRENT SPECIAL OFFERS ON OUR HUGE SELECTION OF ART PRINTS!

Go Back   World Naval Ships Forums > Naval History > Battles and Events
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Battles and Events Topics covering naval battles, actions, fleet reviews and any other naval events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #76  
Old 16-04-2012, 17:04
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

So OK- the 4.5" hits were made at 0425, when the range was near to 18000 yds;surely that strengthens the case for two hits being from 4.5"guns???
What is it that makes you think the hits were made at 0425; and why is it so significant???

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 16-04-2012 at 19:20.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 17-04-2012, 04:04
Paul C.'s Avatar
Paul C. Paul C. is offline
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Jamaica
Posts: 280
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Here's where the 4:25 time is from:

(Remember the German times are 1 hour ahead, so 5:00 = 4:00 in British accounts)

The map I posted notes a 114 mm (4.5-inch) hit on Turret Anton at 5:15 AM and the foretop hit by the 381 mm (15-inch) shell at 5:25.

However, according to the KBismarck discussion - Gneisenau's war diary puts the foretop hit at 5:16, but Lutjen's log has it at 5:25 - agreeing with the map. Who is right?

The flooding of Anton is what occured heavily at 5:34, which seems to have lead to the assumption that a hit occured at that time. But it may well have been due to the new course of Gneisenau, retreating from Renown at that time, that took her into the wind and waves at increasing speed causing a deluge of seawater over her bows. The damaged turret was therefore inundated.

So I think in my account I may have transposed the times and put the foretop hit first and the smaller hits at the later time... That may not be correct!

Confused? I don't blame you... I don't know if it is even possible to rationalize all this!
__________________

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 17-04-2012, 07:38
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Paul-your fastidiousness is amazing and is to be admired; but when push comes to shove; it still comes down to the fact that these last hits on Gneisenau WERE from 4.5" shells.
The order of the hits; as Vince has them, is possibly incorrect. Anton turret's flooding occurred at 0534 (0434=Vince's given time of the strike on Anton turret)

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 18-04-2012, 03:32
Paul C.'s Avatar
Paul C. Paul C. is offline
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Jamaica
Posts: 280
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Jim, you are way too kind!

I guess it's a little frustating not to be able to dissect this action down to the minute as has been done and done and done with the Denmark Strait, but sometimes you are forced to leave well enough alone!

I really must thank EVERYONE who has contributed to this thread. I've been so gratified by the response (including those who read, but did not post - I thank you for your attention!) and I'm sure we've all learned something.

Renown, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were all great ships in their own right - fast, powerful, beautiful and all made major contributions to the war effort of their respective side.

Though this battle between them was inconclusive, it did set the tone for most future encounters between major British and German warships for the rest the war, based on the German naval directive that opponents of equal or greater strength should be avoided - "No unnecessary risks!". The Kriegsmarine could ill afford to lose its ships - a small, but highly potent and capable force.

The Royal Navy could ill afford not to make every effort to subdue them. As the Admiralty grudgingly stated after the vindication of Admiral Somerville's conduct of the Spartivento action in its ill-advised inquiry:

Quote:
No opportunity must be allowed to pass of attaining what is in fact the ultimate objective of the Royal Navy - the destruction of the enemy's forces whenever and wherever encountered.
Renown certainly gave it her all off Stromvaer Light.

__________________

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 18-04-2012, 03:34
Vince O'Hara Vince O'Hara is offline
Sub-Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 139
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

I note the contradictions in the timing of events and I'll see where I got the times that I cited in my book, hopefully tomorrow. One generic comment I'll make that will come as no surprise to anyone here is that the accounts of most naval actions are full of discrepancies and contradictions. One of my favorite examples can be found in the London Gazette (12 May 1948) account of the action off Sfax on 16 April 1941. The Gazette reprints the reports of the British destroyer captains who participated. Jervis gives the time when she opened fire as 0220, Janus says it was 0222, Nubian 0210 and Mohawk 0205.

Vince
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 18-04-2012, 07:10
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Excellent postscript Paul and one of the finest photographs of the great ship that was Renown.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 18-04-2012, 13:48
Vince O'Hara Vince O'Hara is offline
Sub-Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 139
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C. View Post
Here's where the 4:25 time is from:

(Remember the German times are 1 hour ahead, so 5:00 = 4:00 in British accounts)

The map I posted notes a 114 mm (4.5-inch) hit on Turret Anton at 5:15 AM and the foretop hit by the 381 mm (15-inch) shell at 5:25.

However, according to the KBismarck discussion - Gneisenau's war diary puts the foretop hit at 5:16, but Lutjen's log has it at 5:25 - agreeing with the map. Who is right?

The flooding of Anton is what occured heavily at 5:34, which seems to have lead to the assumption that a hit occured at that time. But it may well have been due to the new course of Gneisenau, retreating from Renown at that time, that took her into the wind and waves at increasing speed causing a deluge of seawater over her bows. The damaged turret was therefore inundated.

So I think in my account I may have transposed the times and put the foretop hit first and the smaller hits at the later time... That may not be correct!

Confused? I don't blame you... I don't know if it is even possible to rationalize all this!
The 0434 time cited for the second hit comes from the British Naval Staff History reprinted in Naval Operations of the Campaign in Norway which states on page 21: "At 0434 the Gneisenau received a second hit which struck 'A' turret by the left hood of the rangefinder."

The war diary for Gneisenau reprinted in Battleships of the Scharnhorst class has this entry for 0534 (German times are an hour ahead) "'A' turret flooding due to heavy seas. Large pumps requested. Heavy quantities seawater coming in through left optic of rangefinder cupola after hit knocked away cover."

I don't know if this relieves the confusion any but at least it provides an authority for the 0434 time. Looking at it now and in light of this discussion, I'd guess the first 4.5-inch hit occured some minutes before 0434.

Vince
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 18-04-2012, 14:00
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

The above statement from Vince echoes what I said in #78.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 27-12-2013, 13:41
argaum argaum is offline
Recruit
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Hi ,i am at home with my grandads medals,photos and pendant HMS RENOWN (action 1940)this is a great read for me things i just did not now. my grandad was a stoker W.V.DAVEY . THANKS ANDY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C. View Post
Hi all,

I did a search and could not find a thread devoted to the details of this action, so I thought I'd put something together. Hope you'll enjoy reading it and will add your comments.


Basic Background

This action took place during the ultimately successful invasion of Norway by the Germans in April 1940. With British and German naval forces at sea carrying out various operations it was inevitable that clashes would and did occur.


Main References:

Peter C. Smith – The Battlecruiser Renown 1916-1948
Garzke & Dulin – Battleships – Axis and Neutral Battleships of WW2
Fritz Otto Busch – The Sinking of the Scharnhorst
John Jordan – An Illustrated Guide to Battleships and Battlecruisers
KBismarck Forum Thread – “Battle of Stromvaer”
WNS Forum Thread – “Galloper’s Good Gunnery”
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 02-01-2014, 08:50
Rupert Rupert is offline
Rear-Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,216
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

In terms of what the RN could have done better, the one possibility that has not been discussed (I think) is for the destroyers to hold fire. It is not clear that their presence would have been known without the fireflashes.

Holding fire could have encouraged to the German ships to turn and close on (apparent) lone RN vessel.

Far from certain and only with the benefit of hindsight, but it is a possibility
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 04-01-2014, 16:15
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote from#1
The British destroyers made a spirited attempt to take part in the battle, firing their 4.7-inch guns, but they were eventually left behind, unable to keep pace with the speeding Renown in the heavy seas. Their gun flashes, however, looked impressive enough to the Germans to influence their continuation of the action.

The above is from paul C's original post and certainly bears out Rupert's assertion that the destroyers shell flashes may well have influenced the German decision to break off the action-the destroyers, in any case; being left behind. In those circumstances the RN could not have done better

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 04-01-2014 at 17:08.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 08-07-2014, 13:32
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Gneisenau and Scharnhorst closed formation and reduced speed because of flooding in their forward turrets.Despite their complaints that Renown fired fast and continuously while they were being handicapped by the heavy seas and machinery breakdowns;and the top heavy Renown laboured much harder in the heavy weather that the two modern battleships.
Renown fired 230 15" rounds- mostly from A and B turrets;and 1065 5.5" rounds,Severe blast damage allowed sea water to flood into her A and Y shell rooms. Scharnhorst fired 195 11" rounds from from Caesar turret and 91 5.9" rounds. Gneisenau fired only 54 main battery rounds and nothing from her secondary armament.
German 11" shells hit Renown twice for a hit rate of 0.8%.Renown landed but one 15" shell hit Gneisenau's foretop, for a hit rate of 0.4%.The German's mounted 18 X 11" guns to Renown's 6 X 15" guns .In the circumstances Whitworth was lucky that Lutjens chose to run rather than fight-what if they had chosen to stay,deploy and fight?? Question is -why didn't he???
The German battleships returned to Germany on 12th April;after the British sank all ten destroyers they were supposed to support.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 08-07-2014 at 15:01.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 08-07-2014, 15:20
M. A. Rozon M. A. Rozon is offline
Chief Petty Officer
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 95
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote:
Originally Posted by jainso31 View Post
In the circumstances Whitworth was lucky that Lutjens chose to run rather than fight-what if they had chosen to stay,deploy and fight?? Question is -why didn't he???jainso31
Admittedly a quote from Wikipedia but, perhaps to answer some of this particular question:

"At the outbreak of World War II, Lütjens was Commander of Scouting Forces. In April 1940, during the invasion of Denmark and Norway (Operation Weserübung), he served as Vice Admiral, commanding the distant cover forces in the North Sea—which consisted of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. His superior, Vizeadmiral Wilhelm Marschall, had fallen ill just before the operation, so he assumed command of the Narvik and Trondheim landings.

Lütjens' mission was to draw British units away from Narvik and facilitate the landings there. During the landing phase, his forces were approached by an Royal Navy task-force led by the battlecruiser HMS Renown. The British ship engaged at 05:05 and Lütjens was forced to fight an inconclusive battle with Renown. He succeeded in extracting the German vessels without incurring major battle damage. He viewed his operation as a success.

It may have been possible for him to turn on and sink Renown by attacking from different directions, using Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, but the accompanying British destroyers were well placed to join the fight had he done so. His Commander-in-Chief, Erich Raeder, endorsed his actions which would have placed him against a clear eastern horizon as opposed to an enemy that was positioned against a darkened western horizon. Action at that time would have given the enemy a clearer silhouette to aim at while obscuring the British ships somewhat. Under those circumstances, Raeder felt the British would have had a tactical advantage. Lütjens later rendezvoused with the Admiral Hipper and reached Wilhelmshaven on 12 April, having avoided a major fleet action.

Lütjens nearly changed his mind during the battle, believing a pitched fight may bring relief to the German destroyer force at Narvik—a force which he had effectively been forced to abandon in the face of enemy sea superiority. But the prospect of running into HMS Rodney, now known by German naval intelligence to be in the vicinity, was too much of a risk. In the resultant Battles of Narvik 10 German destroyers were sunk and the campaign for the port lasted until June. In the wake of Lütjens return, he learned Marschall had recovered to assume command."

In short, it would seem that his orders were not to seek battle but to draw heavy enemy forces away from other German naval operations. He carried out his orders and for this he was rewarded. Marschall would later seek battle against orders, sinking Glorious but taking serious damage in the course of that engagement and was sacked.

Bigger Guns, MORE POWER!

Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 08-07-2014, 15:53
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

"Quote by M A Rozon

"Lütjens nearly changed his mind during the battle, believing a pitched fight may bring relief to the German destroyer force at Narvik—a force which he had effectively been forced to abandon in the face of enemy sea superiority. But the prospect of running into HMS Rodney, now known by German naval intelligence to be in the vicinity, was too much of a risk. In the resultant Battles of Narvik 10 German destroyers were sunk and the campaign for the port lasted until June. In the wake of Lütjens return, he learned Marschall had recovered to assume command."

Leaving the "what if" (Rodney) out of the issue-what does the statement "in the face of enemy sea superiority " mean precisely in this particular case.The British destroyers made a spirited attempt to take part in the battle, firing their 4.7-inch guns, but they were eventually left behind, unable to keep pace with the speeding Renown in the heavy seas.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 08-07-2014 at 16:28.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 08-07-2014, 16:41
PhilipG PhilipG is offline
Sub-Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Arundel, Sussex
Posts: 192
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote:
Originally Posted by jainso31 View Post

Leaving the "what if" (Rodney) out of the issue-what does the statement "in the face of enemy sea superiority " mean precisely in this particular case
Jim I feel that the phrase comes from German intelligence, Rodney was meant to be close by, Renown was known to be there as they had engaged, there were probably over a dozen RN destroyers with the capital ships and the aircraft carrier Glorious was not too far away.

As a German Navy leader in this position, with ships that had been damaged by shell fire and the weather, the thought of dealing with any of these more powerful fleet units would have been daunting if not verging on the insane.

I am not sure what effect on German battle doctrine the loss of the Admiral Graf Spee had, the Kriegsmarine did not have many major units.

What would have been interesting is if Glorious and Ark Royal had been in the area, the Germans must have been aware that Glorious was back with the Home Fleet after her refit in Malta.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 08-07-2014, 17:18
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote Philip

"Jim I feel that the phrase comes from German intelligence, Rodney was meant to be close by, Renown was known to be there as they had engaged, there were probably over a dozen RN destroyers with the capital ships and the aircraft carrier Glorious was not too far away."

I see where you are coming from Philip but :-
1 Rodney was not close by- she was with the HF leaving Scapa on the 8th
2 Renown's destroyers had been left behind during the chase and
3 Glorious was proceeding to GB and was sunk by Scharnhorst as she left the scene of action with Gneisenau

However I concede that these "what ifs" would have to be taken into the German viewpoint as being "real" dangers.They had carried out part of the task, by luring Renown away from the scene at Narvik.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 08-07-2014 at 17:49.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 09-07-2014, 03:31
Paul C.'s Avatar
Paul C. Paul C. is offline
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Jamaica
Posts: 280
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Hi all,

I find the Rodney reference a bit ironic since Luetjens was on Gneisenau whose spotters had identified Renown as "Nelson" - hence they fired mostly base-fused HE shells after 2 opening salvos of AP. It was Scharnhorst that correctly identified the Renown.

I would think they would have figured out that it could not be a Nelson when they had such a hard time getting away.

Jim, I don't see why Renown was "top heavy" - her full reconstruction made her handle "like a destroyer". It was Hood and Repulse that may have had that problem with all their pre-war and wartime additions that cost them freeboard. Her main problem with her hull in the heavy seas was her bulges which were torn away.

Paul
__________________

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 09-07-2014, 07:32
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Paul-In 1936 it was decided to give Renown a massive rebuild, in the line of the rebuilds of the Queen Elizabeth-class ships. Her entire superstructure was torn down to the deck and completely rebuilt. Her engines were replaced with modern, more powerful, machinery. After the rebuild, Renown was actually capable of surpassing the speed of one of the fastest battlecruisers in the fleet: HMS Hood.
Her secondary battery was also completely overhauled, removing the 4" guns and replacing them with dual-purpose 4.5"/45 Mark I and III guns. The torpedo tubes were removed and the AA guns were replaced by three octuple 2-pounder Pom-Pom AA emplacements.According to her 1939 statistics-she was 4000 tons heavier.

Perhaps my original source misconstrued this aspect.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim

Last edited by jainso31 : 09-07-2014 at 08:56.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 09-07-2014, 10:42
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

The eminent naval historian Correli Barnett in his book "Engage the Enemy more Closely"pub 1992 p111 and I quote:-

"In the event it was Whitworth with Renown who encountered the Scharnhost and Gneisenau and their destroyer escort at 0337 9th April,some 50 miles off Vestfjord; as the German ships were steering north on their "diversionary" course-simulating a breakout into the Atlantic.It was now blowing a full gale,with mountainous seas and sudden curtains of snow or rain.

At 0405 Renown opened fire with her 15" guns at a range of about 15000yds-twelve minutes later she knocked out Gneisenau's main gunnery control system,which persuaded the enemy to run for it.In the stern chase that ensued,Whitworth hit Gneisenau twice at 0434 and knocked out a forward turret.However the weather was on the side of the German ships and which caused the Renown to slow down in order to fight her fore turrets and the speeding Germans to fight their after turrets.

Although at times Whitworth drove Renown up to 29kts,the two German ships had disappeared from view amid a squall.Nevertheless,a british force had asserted a moral supremacy.The fact that Whitworth had been compelled to fight two modern battlecruisers was mark of the Admiralt's failure to read German strategic intentions correctly and concentrate Britain's naval resources in the key areas-as opposed to protecting minelayers elsewhere"

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 09-07-2014, 11:21
Paul C.'s Avatar
Paul C. Paul C. is offline
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Jamaica
Posts: 280
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote:
The eminent naval historian Correli Barnett in his book "Engage the Enemy more Closely"pub 1992 p111 and I quote:-

"In the event it was Whitworth with Renown who encountered the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and their destroyer escort
Uh oh...Mr. Barnett seems to have switched the side of the destroyer escort!

Quote:
The fact that Whitworth had been compelled to fight two modern battlecruisers was mark of the Admiralt's failure to read German strategic intentions correctly and concentrate Britain's naval resources in the key areas-as opposed to protecting minelayers elsewhere"
Well we know that Repulse was in the general area and joined with Renown later that day (about 1400), obviously way too late. It would have been an interesting scenario if she'd been there for the battle.
__________________

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 09-07-2014, 11:45
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

I would assume here Paul- that they (S&G) were shepherding the destroyers to the Narvik area-yes- all ten of them; and which they signalled to go on to their appointed areas when they came under fire from Renown; and these were the destroyers that were sunk in the Vestfjord on the 10th to 13th April 1940. So no I do not think he got them wrong but misnamed them, by calling them "escort"; but again what else would they do "en voyage"???

Re. Repulse-she may have made a difference- IF she were deployed such that she was NOT also following in the wake of the German capital ships.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 09-07-2014, 18:28
BCRenown's Avatar
BCRenown BCRenown is offline
Vice Commodore
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 714
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

[quote][...The fact that Whitworth had been compelled to fight two modern battlecruisers was mark of the Admiralt's failure to read German strategic intentions correctly and concentrate Britain's naval resources in the key areas-as opposed to protecting minelayers elsewhere"
/QUOTE]

But it would certainly have suited British 'strategic intentions' if one or both of the German battleships had failed to make it back to port.
__________________
Keep well and keep posting,
Monty

<a href=http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/image.php?u=4345&type=sigpic&dateline=1228940259 target=_blank>http://www.worldnavalships.com/forum...ine=1228940259</a>

Battlecruiser Renown in 1936 - looking as splendid as ever.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 10-07-2014, 06:05
jainso31's Avatar
jainso31 jainso31 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DONCASTER S.YORKS UK
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: "Duel off Stromvaer" - Renown vs. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst

Quote Monty

"But it would certainly have suited British 'strategic intentions' if one or both of the German battleships had failed to make it back to port".

Unfortunate that was ,at the time,something we were unable to do;although Renown had tried hard enough.She hit Gneisenau- but failed to stop/slow down or otherwise put her in a position- where she could have sunk the German battlecruiser.

jainso31
__________________

HMS ANEMONE (K48)

Always on the Lookout!

Jim
Reply With Quote
Reply



Ship Search by Name : Advanced Search
Random Timeline Entry : 9th January 1934 : HMS Hawkins : Arrived Seychelles

NAVAL PRINTS

Click above to see our naval art portal - Eight random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 Admiral Cuthbert Collingwoods flagship the Royal Sovereign comes under intense fire from the black-painted Spanish 3-decker, Santa Ana, and the French 74 Fougueux, just prior to breaking through the Franco-Spanish line at Trafalgar.
HMS Royal Sovereign by Ivan Berryman. (P)
Half Price! - £625.00
Swordfish of 825 Sqn led by Lt-Cdr Esmonde begin their heroic attack on the battlescruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen as they make their way up the English Channel from Brest during Operation Cerberus on 12th February 1942.  Although all the aircraft were lost and no significant damage was done to the German fleet, all the pilots were decorated for their bravery and Lt-Cdr Esmonde received the first Fleet Air Arm VC to be awarded, albeit posthumously.  The painting depicts the first wave of Swordfish attacking the Scharnhorst with Gneisenau taking avoiding action in the distance.  A German torpedo boat has turned to confront the attacking aircraft.

Attack on the Scharnhorst by Ivan Berryman (AP)
Half Price! - £25.00
 Blackbeard the Terrible, otherwise known as Edward Teach, Thatch or Drummond. Circa 1718.

Damnation Seize My Soul by Chris Collingwood. (Y)
Half Price! - £50.00
 The mighty Bismarck returns fire to the fast-approaching HMS Hood at the start of a battle that would see both adversaries tragically sunk. The Bismarck would later be attacked by Swordfish aircraft from HMS Ark Royal, damaging her stearing and allowing her to be caught by the British battleships Rodney and King George V. The once proud German battleship would be ruthlessly pounded into a twisted and burning wreck and finally finished by HMS Dorsetshire with torpedoes at around 10:30 hours on the morning of May 27th 1941. HMS Dorsetshire and HMS Maori combed the area of the sinking for survivors, between them picking up a total of 110 out of an original complement of 2,300.

Bismarck Replies to HMS Hood by Ivan Berryman. (Y)
Half Price! - £295.00

 A splendid little war was how John Hay, ambassador to Britain, described the Spanish-American war of 1898. Though the war was small in scope it was large in consequences; it promoted the regeneration of the American Navy and the emergence of the United States as a major world power. Fought primarily at sea, the war created an American naval legend in its opening encounter between the pacific squadrons of Spain and the United States at Manila Bay on the 1st of May 1898. At sunrise Admiral Dewey, leading the American fleet in his flagship the USS Olympia, had caught the Spanish fleet, under Admiral Patricio Montojo, by surprise - still anchored off Sangley Point at Manila Bay in the Philippine Islands. Defeat for the Spanish was total and heralded the end of a once extensive Spanish empire in the Americas. Montojos flagship, Reina Cristina, is seen here under fire from the Olympia.

The Battle of Manila Bay by Anthony Saunders (Y)
Half Price! - £62.50
RFA Fort Austin makes a leisurely rendezvous at sunset with the Polaris submarine HMS Renown on patrol somewhere in mid ocean. Soon a rubber inflatable will be launched from the Fort, and mail and fresh fruit and vegetables will be transferred before darkness sets in and makes the operation more hazardous.

The Rendezvous by Robert Barbour.
Half Price! - £30.00
Americas first true aircraft carrier, the USS Langley (CV-1) is pictured making way at sea as a pair of Douglas DT-2s pass overhead.

USS Langley by Ivan Berryman (AP)
Half Price! - £37.50
The Atlantic ocean was the lifeline between Britain and America, as well as millions of tons of raw materials, GIs were also transported over in all manor of hastily converted liners.  Protecting the troops from marauding u-boats and German surface ships was of paramount importance to the allied fleets.  Although USS New York spent a good deal of the war in the Atlantic, she also participated in the Torch landings off North Africa and took part in the Pacific campaign, seeing action at both Iwo Jima and Okinowa.

Escort for the Troops - USS New York by Anthony Saunders
Half Price! - £50.00

SPORT PRINTS

Click above to see our sport art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 Kentucky - born Steve Cauthen was just 12 years old when his father Tex finally agreed to help the single-minded young man realise a burning ambition to become a jockey provided he didnt let success make him big-headed.  No parental proviso was ever more faithfully fulfilled.  In the year of his seventeenth birthday the kid rode 487 winners of 6 million dollars, including the U.S. Triple Crown on Affirmed.  He went on to captivate British hearts two years later.  By 1984 he was champion. But better was to come. No wonder the fairytale ingredients of 1985 have fired the imagination and talent of Peter Deighan to such compelling effect.

The Golden Boy by Peter Deighan.
Half Price! - £60.00
This signed art print was produced at the end of 2000 after the Olympics of that year, and has been sold out from the publisher for many years.  We have the last few publishers proofs of this edition available.  This superb art print celebrates the ultimate achievement for any athlete, the winning of an Olympic gold medal.  In the modern era athletes from Great Britain have won 178 gold medals and Gary Keane's montage celebrates some of the highlights from those achievements.  It captures the determination and effort required to win, as well as the euphoria when the realisation that a life long dream has finally become a reality.  This print is not only a tribute to those featured but also to all other competitors and medal winners who have strived to bring glory and honour to Great Britain.  As the Olympic Games enter a new century and a new chapter in history, it is hoped that this reminder of past glories will also help to inspire those competing for gold in the future.  This limited edition print is signed by six gold medal winners : <br>LYNN DAVIES - 1964 TOKYO Men's Long Jump.<br>MARY PETERS - 1972 MUNICH Pentathlon.<br>DALEY THOMPSON - 1980 MOSCOW Decathlon & 1984 LOS ANGELES Decathlon.<br>TESSA SANDERSON - 1984 LOS ANGELES Javelin.<br>SALLY GUNNELL - 1992 BARCELONA 400 metre Hurdles.<br>STEVEN REDGRAVE - 1984 LOS ANGELES Rowing Coxed Fours, 1988 SEOUL Rowing Coxless Pairs, 1992 BARCELONA Rowing Coxless Pairs, 1996 ATLANTA Rowing Coxless Pairs (and since signing this print, also 2000 SYDNEY Rowing Coxless Fours).

British Olympic Legends by Gary Keane
Half Price! - £110.00
 David Coulthard. McLaren Mercedes MP4/13
A Scottish Gentleman by Michael Thompson.
Half Price! - £25.00
SFA15.  Bollocks by Chris Howells.

Bollocks by Chris Howells.
Half Price! - £50.00

AVIATION PRINTS

Click above to see our aviation art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

DHM683.  Alouette III Helicopter of Rhodesian Fireforce 1979 by John Wynne Hopkins.

Alouette III Helicopter of Rhodesian Fireforce 1979 by John Wynne Hopkins.
Half Price! - £50.00
 Supermarine Spitfire Mk.1As of No.610 (County of Chester) Sqn RAAF, intercept incoming Heinkel 111H-16s of the 9th Staffel, Kampfgeschwader 53 Legion Condor during the big daylight raids on London of August and September 1940 – the climax of the Battle of Britain. Spitfire N3029 (DW-K) was shot down by a Bf109 on the 5th of September 1940 and crash-landed near Gravesend, Kent, thankfully without injury to Sgt Willcocks, the pilot. For the record, N3029 was rebuilt and, following some brief flying in the UK, was sent overseas by convoy to the Middle East. Ironically, the ship carrying this aircraft was torpedoed en route and both ship and all its cargo were lost.

Close Encounter by Ivan Berryman. (F)
Half Price! - £110.00
 The Sopwith Dolphin was a radical departure from previous Sopwith design philosophies, embodying a reverse-stagger on the wings, a water-cooled Hispano-Suiza engine and an unusual, but highly popular positioning of the cockpit which gave the pilot unprecedented views. One exponent of this purposeful looking machine was Canadian Major A D Carter who claimed many of his 31 victories flying the Dolphin. He is shown here sending an Albatross to the ground on 8th May 1918 whilst flying C4017. Carter was himself shot down soon after became a prisoner of war. He was killed in 1919 whilst test flying a Fokker D.VII at Shoreham, Sussex.

Major Albert Carter by Ivan Berryman. (GL)
Half Price! - £350.00
 Two Fairey Firefly fighter-bombers of 810 Sqn, Fleet Air Arm, overfly the carrier HMS Theseus during the Korean War.

HMS Theseus by Ivan Berryman.
Half Price! - £15.00

MILITARY PRINTS

Click above to see our military art portal - Four random half price items are displayed to the right.

Some Current Half Price Offers

 Polish 7TP (Twin Turret) light tank of Captain F. Michalowskis training company breaks out from the street barricade to counter attack German reconnaissance elements.

Warsaw, September 1939 by David Pentland.
Half Price! - £40.00
 Cheux, Normandy, 25th June 1944.  Royal Armoured Corps Recce troops of the 15th (Scottish) Infantry Division set up a temporary observation post to locate 12th SS Panzer Division positions, prior to Operation Epsom.  The 15th Division comprised of 9th Cameronians, 2nd Glasgow Highlanders, 7th Seaforth Highlanders, 8th Royal Scots, 6th Royal Scots Fusiliers, 6th King's Own Scottish Borderers, 10th Highland Light Infantry, 2nd Gordon Highlanders and the 2nd Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

Enemy in Sight by David Pentland. (P)
Half Price! - £700.00
 Bastogne, Ardennes, Belgium, 20th December 1944.  Newly arrived 81mm Mortars of 2nd Battalion, 506th PIR, 101st Airborne Division, fire in support of U.S. Paratroopers defending against German probes to the north of Bastogne.

Fire for Effect by David Pentland.
Half Price! - £70.00
 British MK1 Grant tanks of the Staffordshire Yeomanry 8th Armoured Brigade, 10th Armoured Division, breakout from El Alamein.

Operation Supercharge, 4th November 1941 by David Pentland. (AP)
Half Price! - £115.00
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aircraft Carriers "Joffre" and "Painleve" Grosser Kreuzer French Ships and Crews 9 13-10-2014 17:25
DD 110, a "Fourstacker" "Flush Decker" John Odom US Navy Ships and Crews 4 28-03-2013 10:12
Scharnhorst and Gneisenau NASAAN101 German Ships and Crews 52 20-05-2010 10:39
Scharnhorst and Gneisenau Vs. HMS Rawalpindi NASAAN101 German Ships and Crews 12 04-03-2009 18:12


All times are GMT. The time now is 13:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.