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  #601  
Old 06-12-2017, 16:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glojo View Post
Correct me please if I am wrong but are you saying five T45 destroyers are tied up\laid up in Portsmouth and we have one operation type 45?

I thought the one operational type 45 is 'limping' home for urgent repair. I say urgent as this ship has only been deployed for two months and she needs to be fixed back here in the UK.

Is Diamond the ship you refer to as it is definitely the ship I am talking about.

How many warships (NOT RFA's) are currently deployed overseas? I read somewhere that Diamond was covering the Middle East.Somalia\Gulf of Aden, the Indian Ocean plus the far East. This surely cannot be correct? Any ship can only be in one place at a specific time and it looks llike the only place these Type 45's are reliable is alongside at Portsmouth!!!

Will we see one of these ships being cannibalised to get at least one vessel sea worthy?

How can our military leaders stand back and allow this to happen? Admiral West is now EXTREMELY vocal regarding the state of our navy, but when he had the helm, where was he then?
Glojo have a look here posts 902 onwards - http://www.worldnavalships.com/forum...t=3319&page=37
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  #602  
Old 06-12-2017, 17:08
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Default Re: Modern Navy

Re Post 905, we used to have dockyards who could repair our warships. Why does the government have to wait for tenders/bids nowadays? Lord help us if we had another war and no Churchill to sort this sorry lot out.
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  #603  
Old 07-12-2017, 14:03
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Originally Posted by gruntfuttock View Post
To say that the only thing it has shot down outside a firing range is an Iran air plane, is rather a strange statement. Unless we get into a hot war a firing range is all it is going to fire on. That is like claiming that it's Ballistic Missile Defence System doesn't work because it's only been tested in exercises. The Principal Anti Air Missile System (PAAMS) has also only been used in exercises on firing ranges, so are you also questioning the capability of that system as well. Not to mention that it has no BMD capability whatsoever.
Whilst it could be suggested that Rupert might have lacked a modicum of tact, is it fair to suggest that when testing missile systems these tests are possibly done in sterile, safe areas. In war this luxury might not be available. Were our systems perfect during the Falklands conflict, or did we learn some very hard lessons regarding the shortcomings of what we had.

My layman's thoughts regarding the Arleigh Burke is that it is an excellent all-round class of ship.
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  #604  
Old 07-12-2017, 14:32
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Originally Posted by glojo View Post
Whilst it could be suggested that Rupert might have lacked a modicum of tact, is it fair to suggest that when testing missile systems these tests are possibly done in sterile, safe areas. In war this luxury might not be available. Were our systems perfect during the Falklands conflict, or did we learn some very hard lessons regarding the shortcomings of what we had.

My layman's thoughts regarding the Arleigh Burke is that it is an excellent all-round class of ship.

Good grief, my reply was posted on the 27/09/16 so I think a rain check is called for on any reply.
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  #605  
Old 07-12-2017, 14:46
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Default Re: Modern Navy

House of Commons Defence Select Committee. Inquiry into the UK amphibious warfare capability. 5th Dec 2017.


http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/I...b-928dd5831271
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  #606  
Old 07-12-2017, 15:09
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Originally Posted by oldsalt View Post
I have served in a few oil tankers & OBO's built in Japan, they were not brilliantly made. Just two examples, a lot of flanges were welded onto pipes with one welding run, secondly one ship had it's condenser sea water drain valve at the end of an angled pipe, the pipe corroded and the leak could only be repaired with sea water under pressure gusting out. I prepared a valve to be mounted on the condenser, removed the faulty pipe & secured the valve to condenser. I think maybe the cost & delivery time were the main reasons for using foreign yards.
There you go then, I have nothing but praise for the Mitsubishi ships, possibly the only troublesome items were the owner specified American feed pumps.
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  #607  
Old 07-12-2017, 15:28
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Good grief, my reply was posted on the 27/09/16 so I think a rain check is called for on any reply.
Sounds like diplomatic absolution (or just plain waffle) to me.
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  #608  
Old 07-12-2017, 22:57
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SHIPBUILDING - INTERESTING?

Measurement is a term which talks about precision, calculations and predictions for future initiatives; important aspects of ship-building and many other maritime operations ranging from vessel surveys of all types to designs of new builds altogether. Measurement, like vessel builds undergo regular updates and investigation which leads to new practices and technological innovations done to change the landscape of gathering relevant data about the measured entity.

The 21st century saw many innovations within the measuring field with new technological advancements/ new means to obtain data and new data to obtain altogether. Examples of such innovations include the different implementations of CAD technologies and optical measurement which add to the precision and cost-efficiency factor in shipbuilding.

The shipbuilding and naval architecture itself is a dynamic environment of diverse range of measurement units and their applications. Measurement in naval architecture directly relates to the overall quality of the final build of a vessel as it detects inconsistencies in the initial design implemented within the foundations of building a vessel; pinpointing design flaws beforehand along with offering alternate decisions to improve the vessel build.

Vessel builds start from blueprints and a flat surface where the construction takes place; however modern vessels favour pre-fabricated components built separately, on occasion in distant/separate shipyards; following a process of block construction where all the pre-fabricated parts are put together to form a ship. Pre-fabricated parts are made from sheet metal and pipework; all welded together when necessary; aim of this process is to produce semi-worked elements which are put together to form a vessel. Another aspect of modern vessel builds is the standardisation of designs which applies to multiple ship contracts; ensuring repetitive operation. This repetition decreases demand for training which contributes to economic efficiency which also facilitates development of techniques and equipment.

The aforementioned repetition of vessel builds also enhances compatibility and ease of adaptation as crew transfers are fairly common along with other products of economic conditions which will potentially cause radically different vessel builds to be harder to operate and modify as well as give new crewmembers appropriate training.

How are vessel parts held together in the 21st century? Welding remains to be the most popular and effective method and thus used in all vessel builds. Ships are made from welded steel which varies in terms of fracture toughness where results can be brittle fracture where damage is done but not easily detectable as deformation does not occur on the material itself; still occurs today. Welding also, according to popular lore is a common source of accidents in ships and shipbuilding processes.

Accidents are more abundant in the modern world as most surveyors and vessel owners try to control and inspect every step of production at every stage of the vessel being built; this is a mistake because where some deficiencies and design flaws may be detected but even more get missed as during the stages of checking errors; focus shifts across dimensions and misses other errors that may always appear at least expected times and places. Formal surveys and check-ups are a necessity in modern maritime thus considered a mark of quality due to the fact that it is visible to the owner or buyer; however processes are not visible and thus not considered.

Problems of modern maritime also lie within acceptance of only what is visible and written; limiting scope only to those dimensions and ignoring others. Shipbuilding is a process of connection of machines and equipment which are pre-installed in modern shipyards. Pre-installation can lead to more design flaws if every step is inspected as every component varies and creates more dimensions to shift focus and ignore some problems; focus may shift from machine operation to its placement altogether.

In order to avoid some errors and produce a quality vessel build it is essential to use high-caliber measuring equipment such as the TRITOP; an environmentally-independent apparatus which produces 3D images while not touching the object and having minimum hardware requirements. Such software aids in making individual details and recording of diameters, lengths and angles.

It is beneficial to understand that vessels get build in a process that generates information as the process carries on and repeats. The “Design Spiral” is composed of calculations, information which keeps getting added, revised and on-occasion changed. The whole process also includes powering and testing the vessel in sea trials. Sea trials, essentially are done for testing of propulsion, operability, safety measures along with navigation and control mechanisms.

Source - https://hendersoninternational.wordp...-shipbuilding/
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  #609  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:41
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Originally Posted by al1934 View Post
Sounds like diplomatic absolution (or just plain waffle) to me.
I always appreciate constructive comments. Perhaps you would like to post some.
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  #610  
Old 10-12-2017, 00:00
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UNDERSEA CABLES: INDISPENSABLE, INSECURE

We must do more to protect the indispensable yet insecure internet infrastructure provided by undersea cables, urges Rishi Sunak MP in a new report published by Policy Exchange, Undersea Cables: Indispensable, insecure.

97% of global communications and $10 trillion in daily financial transactions are transmitted not by satellites in the skies, but by cables lying deep beneath the ocean. Undersea cables are the indispensable infrastructure of our time, essential to our modern life and digital economy, yet they are inadequately protected and highly vulnerable to attack at sea and on land, from both hostile states and terrorists.

US intelligence officials have spoken of Russian submarines “aggressively operating” near Atlantic cables as part of its broader interest in unconventional methods of warfare. When Russia annexed Crimea, one of its first moves was to sever the main cable connection to the outside world.

Undersea cables come ashore in just a few remote, coastal locations. These landing sites are critical national infrastructure but often have minimal protection, making them vulnerable to terrorism. A foiled Al-Qaeda plot to destroy a key London internet exchange in 2007 illustrates the credibility of the threat.

Since the first trans-Atlantic cable laid in 1858, cables have mainly been installed and owned by private companies. Although positive for taxpayers, this has meant undersea cables do not get the attention from governments they deserve.

The report recommends that:

The next Strategic Defence and Security Review should specifically address threats to Britain’s security from attacks on our undersea cable infrastructure
The Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure should quickly review and improve security at UK landing sites where cables come ashore
Britain and NATO must ensure their maritime resources are adequate to deal with this new threat to our security
The government should work with private communications companies to install more backup ‘dark cables’ and improve monitoring at sea
We should follow the example of Australia and New Zealand and establish Cable Protection Zones around our highest value communications corridors
The UK must lead efforts to develop a new international treaty to protect undersea cables
This report has been endorsed by Admiral James Stavridis, US Navy (Ret), former NATO Supreme Allied Commander; Robert Hannigan, former Security Adviser to the Prime Minister and Director of GCHQ until earlier this year; and General Lord Houghton, former UK Chief of Defence Staff, who stepped down in 2016.

In his Foreword to the report, Admiral Stavridis says:

“It is not satellites in the sky, but pipes on the ocean floor that form the backbone or the world’s economy. We have allowed this vital infrastructure to grow increasingly vulnerable and this should worry us all.

“Over my own career, I have seen the Atlantic transition from being a theater characterized by near complete NATO supremacy to a space that Russia is actively contesting through a resurgent naval doctrine. If the relative weakness of the Russian position makes a conventional conflict with NATO unlikely, it also raises the appeal for them of asymmetric targets like fibre optic cables. We should prepare for increased maritime hybrid activity, not just from Russia, but also from China and Iran.”

Rishi Sunak MP, the author of the report, says:

“A successful attack on the UK’s undersea cable infrastructure would be an existential threat to our security. Yet the exact locations of these cables are both isolated and publicly available – jugulars of the world economy which are a singularly attractive target for our enemies.

“Since the first trans-Atlantic cable was laid in 1858, undersea cables have generally been owned and installed by private companies. Although this is good for taxpayers, it also means that most governments have not given undersea cables enough attention.

“As we debate our future defence priorities, protecting the freedom of the seas and all the lanes of communication on and under them is paramount. Britain and our NATO allies must ensure that our maritime capabilities get the investment they need.”

Source - https://policyexchange.org.uk/public...able-insecure/
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File Type: jpg Undersea-Cables.jpg (89.7 KB, 12 views)
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  #611  
Old 11-12-2017, 00:42
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Defence chiefs seek new review and £4bn bailout

The Ministry of Defence is set to request a full defence review and £4 billion of emergency cash to avert deep cuts to the armed forces.

It is preparing to ask Theresa May and Mark Sedwill, the national security adviser, if the defence element of a review of security capability can be elevated to a formal strategic defence review early next year, four sources said.

The MoD is seeking a £4 billion bailout from the Treasury over the next two years to relieve pressure to stick within its annual budget cycle. The cash would also be used to make the department more efficient in the long term.

For example, it is thought up to £2 billion a year could be saved from the maintenance and support side that deals with ships, jets and vehicles as well as certain back-office functions without the need to lose capability.

“The proposal needs selling to Downing Street, as a full defence review would need to be commissioned there to have any meaning,” a defence source said. “But interest levels there are low and ‘distractions’ not welcomed. Gavin [Williamson, the defence secretary] now needs to earn his spurs.”

Mr Williamson, a former chief whip, will require all his powers of persuasion to convince Mrs May and Philip Hammond of the merits of a new review and extra funding.

The defence secretary is trusted by the prime minister but has been embroiled in a war of words with the chancellor. It emerged yesterday that Mrs May had to intervene in a “blazing row” between the two cabinet ministers last week in the Commons.

The outburst took place after allies of Mr Hammond likened Mr Williamson to Private Pike from Dad’s Army and the defence secretary temporarily banned the chancellor from military flights for not paying his bills. Allies of Mr Williamson have since compared Mr Hammond to Private Frazer, the doom-mongering undertaker from the show.

A refusal by the chancellor to grant the MoD extra money would force Mr Williamson to delay equipment purchases, scale back training and scrap capability because his £36 billion budget is insufficient to cover all costs.

This would raise the prospect of any subsequent defence review finding in favour of elements of the military — such as a full complement of 6,400 Royal Marines and the amphibious assault ships HMS Bulwark and HMS Albion — that no longer exist because the department had cut them to balance the books.

The national security capability review, launched in July, was supposed to be “light touch, cost neutral”, according to a Whitehall source. Defence is one of 12 strands of work that comprise the capability review. The other 11 sections include overseas aid, strategic communication, border control and counterterrorism. A final draft is due to be considered by Mrs May and the national security committee on December 19.

The last time a full strategic defence and security review took place was in 2015. It is only scheduled to occur every five years.

The MoD said that “any discussion of the options is pure speculation”.

From todays Times.
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  #612  
Old 11-12-2017, 15:07
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Defence chiefs seek new review and £4bn bailout

The Ministry of Defence is set to request a full defence review and £4 billion of emergency cash to avert deep cuts to the armed forces.

For example, it is thought up to £2 billion a year could be saved from the maintenance and support side that deals with ships, jets and vehicles as well as certain back-office functions without the need to lose capability.
Trying to economize by cutting maintenance may save money in the short term, but usually has less beneficial effects in the long term. A very slippery slope.
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  #613  
Old 11-12-2017, 18:31
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Trying to economize by cutting maintenance may save money in the short term, but usually has less beneficial effects in the long term. A very slippery slope.
Tim please post 917 at - http://www.worldnavalships.com/forum...2#post10172022
One wonders what overhaul means - over a number of years? Upgrades or modifications maybe but hopefully its not going to take years to sort out the propulsion systems in all 6 - some fleet.
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  #614  
Old 13-12-2017, 09:14
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Head of Royal Marines to extend time in post, in order to fight forthcoming cuts.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/top-royal-...wer&soc_trk=tw
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  #615  
Old 15-12-2017, 13:08
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MORE GLOOM AND DOOM

Information regarding decommissions, cuts and threats to undersea cables:

Two Royal Navy Hunt-class Mine-hunters have been decommissioned in Portsmouth today.
HMS Quorn and HMS Atherstone have left the fleet after a combined service of 58 years,
Former commanding officers and crew who served on the ships today said goodbye at a special decommissioning service.
Unusually, the media was not allowed to cover the event, which took place behind closed doors.
A few years ago, HMS Atherstone returned home to Portsmouth, at which point her withdrawal from service seemed very unlikely.
Continues at - http://www.forces.net/news/hms-ather...-years-service

See also re 'the cuts' - http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/201...cuts-to-fleet/

Russia a 'risk' to undersea cables, defence chief warns - includes video from his speech -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42362500
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  #616  
Old 18-12-2017, 09:38
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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Number 14 dry dock at Portsmouth up and running again for the first time since 2002. :-

https://navaltoday.com/2017/12/18/ra...to-royal-navy/
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  #617  
Old 18-12-2017, 14:48
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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The parlous state of the UK's defence :-

http://www.defencesynergia.co.uk/uk-...d-uncertainty/
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  #618  
Old 20-12-2017, 15:09
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To counter any threats from N. Korea, we would be able to send a 3 in 1 whaler with a couple of Admirals for crew, that should scare the proverbial out of them.
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  #619  
Old 20-12-2017, 17:31
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To counter any threats from N. Korea, we would be able to send a 3 in 1 whaler with a couple of Admirals for crew, that should scare the proverbial out of them.
There is one in the RN Museum Keith but she would need a refit.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Whaler 1.JPG (993.1 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Whaler 2.JPG (1.18 MB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg Whaler 3.JPG (1.15 MB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Whaler 4.JPG (903.4 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg Whaler 5.JPG (116.8 KB, 16 views)
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  #620  
Old 22-12-2017, 14:58
gruntfuttock gruntfuttock is offline
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On duty over the Christmas period :-
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-an...over-christmas
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  #621  
Old 28-12-2017, 14:22
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Good God, I feel old, Pelican.
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  #622  
Old 28-12-2017, 17:57
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Good God, I feel old, Pelican.
Don't believe all you read OS.
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  #623  
Old 28-12-2017, 18:13
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“The year of the Royal Navy” – a review of 2017
On 1st January 2017 the MoD published a press release that proclaimed it would be “the year of the Royal Navy”. Ministers may have come to regret such a bold statement but it certainly helped shine the spotlight on a service during turbulent times. Here we review some of the highlights and some of the difficulties the RN has experienced this year.
Etc.
Concludes:
Still doing the business?
There is no doubt that the RN is in a poor state in many ways but there remains much to be positive about. As the summary above shows, this year has been one of contrasts. New equipment has reached important milestones on its way to join the fleet but at the same time manpower shortages, not enough ships and further possible cuts continue to blight the service.
A little lost amongst the focus on equipment is the day to day business of the RN. The service is just about able to manage the tasks mandated by government and has achieved a great deal in protecting the nation’s interests in 2017. As an example, on 22nd November 2017 the RN had 32 ships and submarines either overseas or on operations (including RFAs but not including P2000 boats) and around 8,000 people actively deployed. (Reflecting the growing concern about Russia, the majority of these vessels were deployed in European or northern waters.) At Christmas, the numbers deployed were approximately half that of November, mainly because for the sake of morale, the RN is determined to give leave to as many of its people as possible over the holiday period.
Decisions that will be taken in Westminster in the early part of 2018 will determine if the RN will have a more stable future or must endure yet further reduction and over-stretch.
Full article - http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-...eview-of-2017/
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  #624  
Old 29-12-2017, 10:22
glojo glojo is offline
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FROM OVER THE POND

Received the following which may be of interest regarding slight delay of Q.E. [To be expected as first of class] and contracts for comparision with RN & USN:





In an interview with Time, the notional Commander in Chief again showed his willful ignorance by calling for steam catapults rather than “digital catapults” on the new [i]
Hi Pelican,
I am not interested in getting into a political debate regarding your President, and I simply wonder about the quality or standard of those briefing this person. Would they be briefed regarding this topic before either answering question, or putting pen to paper? I understand your Commander in Chief is a businessman and not ex-Navy which probably might suggest they know as much about the Navy as I know about business-related issues.

Regarding problems with 'First of Build' is it fair to suggest that in today's modern age we have access to far, far more information than was ever the case in perhaps our time afloat? Issues were always expected and these were usually always resolved without the press being any the wiser.

I for one look forward to seeing your new carrier becoming fully operational with lots of that state of the art aircraft, the F35C
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  #625  
Old 29-12-2017, 12:12
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To be a bit fair to President the electromagnetic catapults do have a fair amount of digital equipment that would not be found on a steam catapult system.
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