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  #1  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:12
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Marius_B Marius_B is offline
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Default RN "No touching rule"

We have all read or heard this bit of news re HMS Vigilant.

Nuclear submarine captain relieved of command
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-41474888

Some thoughts from a landlubber:-

- the RN has a "no touching rule" (BBC article) - really?
- does this decision "relieved of command" push political / social correctness too far?
- and just how is this "no touching" enforced and monitored? Who spies on who?
- what do you expect where males and females work in confined environments such as submarines?
- and what about men touching men?
- can this "no touching rule" stand up to modern liberties, liberal social norms and a 'anything goes' society?

Bottom line - has a competent Captain just been relieved of command because of what is to be expected when males and females serve together on submarines?
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  #2  
Old 03-10-2017, 15:12
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al1934 al1934 is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

"Who spies on who?"

Sadly, this is what is happening now. Orwell was right...
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  #3  
Old 03-10-2017, 19:06
XYZ XYZ is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius_B View Post
We have all read or heard this bit of news re HMS Vigilant.

Nuclear submarine captain relieved of command
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-41474888

Some thoughts from a landlubber:-

- the RN has a "no touching rule" (BBC article) - really?
- does this decision "relieved of command" push political / social correctness too far?
- and just how is this "no touching" enforced and monitored? Who spies on who?
- what do you expect where males and females work in confined environments such as submarines?
- and what about men touching men?
- can this "no touching rule" stand up to modern liberties, liberal social norms and a 'anything goes' society?

Bottom line - has a competent Captain just been relieved of command because of what is to be expected when males and females serve together on submarines?

When was fraternisation between Officers and enlisted crew ok in the Navy?
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  #4  
Old 04-10-2017, 07:11
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

I suspect sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.

OK..........male & female together in close environment, are expected to be celibate saints? I also suspect in this day and age male touching male, or female touching female is almost compulsory!

Those of us who served in the navy , know the conditions aboard ship, in many cases voiced their disquiet about mixed sex crewing, but it went ahead anyhow.
When what we expected to happen, happens, the Captain gets sacked.

Doubtless more to it than revealed by media, but a sad case.
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  #5  
Old 04-10-2017, 09:42
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by XYZ View Post
When was fraternisation between Officers and enlisted crew ok in the Navy?
Why are you drawing a distinction between officers and enlisted crew? Does the rule not apply to all in equal measure?

If you think "fraternisation" is going to be solved by firing personnel because of what comes naturally when men and women serve side by side, you need to think again. This is 2017. Yesterday is dead and gone.

Further to the topic:-
- Would this sacking have taken place during a conflict or in time of war?
- If the answer to the above is yes, the RN may soon run out of experienced personnel.
- Was the safety of the vessel compromised because of the breaching of this 'no touching' rule?
- Does the punishment fit the crime?

The armed forces have been thrown open to all comers of the LGBTQ community, perhaps a very normal liaison between a man and a woman needs to be normalised too.

Manpower is already a big problem, this daft firing of a commander signals an ill wind.
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  #6  
Old 04-10-2017, 13:11
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius_B View Post
Why are you drawing a distinction between officers and enlisted crew? Does the rule not apply to all in equal measure?

If you think "fraternisation" is going to be solved by firing personnel because of what comes naturally when men and women serve side by side, you need to think again. This is 2017. Yesterday is dead and gone.

Further to the topic:-
- Would this sacking have taken place during a conflict or in time of war?
- If the answer to the above is yes, the RN may soon run out of experienced personnel.
- Was the safety of the vessel compromised because of the breaching of this 'no touching' rule?
- Does the punishment fit the crime?

The armed forces have been thrown open to all comers of the LGBTQ community, perhaps a very normal liaison between a man and a woman needs to be normalised too.

Manpower is already a big problem, this daft firing of a commander signals an ill wind.
If you have ever served in a military organisation, then you would know that no favourable treatment of individuals (or even hint of it) can be permitted in the same unit, irrespective of rank or gender. It leads to jealousy and suspicion among those not indulged, impaired judgement of the persons involved and the potential breakdown of discipline.

That is why the display of such personal relationships, much less any physical manifestation of them, is taboo on board warships, including submarines. This applies especially to the Commanding Officer as his/her actions can easily be interpreted as an abuse of power or even bullying behaviour. Also, what happens when it all goes wrong and one of the parties feels seriously resentful towards the other? There is no escape for either of them. The 'no touching' rule on board RN warships serves a distinct purpose.

Ship-borne romances might be understandable but, in the final analysis, military discipline must prevail. The repercussions in the pressure-cooker environment of a warship at sea, living and working together possibly for months on end, are far more serious than for any 'office relationship' where the individuals concerned can easily avoid each other or escape the premises and go home each night.
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  #7  
Old 04-10-2017, 13:40
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

The attached article article from The Naval Review, April 1982 might be of interest in this context, shedding some light on what it was like 35-40 years ago.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Naval discipline in the early 1980s Naval Review.pdf (789.8 KB, 20 views)
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  #8  
Old 04-10-2017, 14:50
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

While being from a different seagoing environment, I for one considered the introduction of women at sea on our ships to have been a PR stunt on the part of our employers.

Though prior to 1986 I believe there were some equality rules in force at the time, and it would have been quite possible for our employers to seek an exemption as I understand the fishing fleet(no pun intendeddid.

I might add that some of the females concerned were only in their late teens when they came to sea, and we did not have the command structure you would have on an RN ship, though it appears to have failed slightly in this case, allegedly of course.
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  #9  
Old 04-10-2017, 15:09
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Hoole View Post
If you have ever served in a military organisation, then you would know that no favourable treatment of individuals (or even hint of it) can be permitted in the same unit, irrespective of rank or gender. It leads to jealousy and suspicion among those not indulged, impaired judgement of the persons involved and the potential breakdown of discipline.

That is why the display of such personal relationships, much less any physical manifestation of them, is taboo on board warships, including submarines. This applies especially to the Commanding Officer as his/her actions can easily be interpreted as an abuse of power or even bullying behaviour. Also, what happens when it all goes wrong and one of the parties feels seriously resentful towards the other? There is no escape for either of them. The 'no touching' rule on board RN warships serves a distinct purpose.

Ship-borne romances might be understandable but, in the final analysis, military discipline must prevail. The repercussions in the pressure-cooker environment of a warship at sea, living and working together possibly for months on end, are far more serious than for any 'office relationship' where the individuals concerned can easily avoid each other or escape the premises and go home each night.
Thank you Rob.

Yes, I have served in uniform, albeit on land, never at sea. And because it was land-based we had plenty of space, no "pressure-cooker environment" as you put it.

But here's the thing;
- because of the massive liberal shift (anything goes) in social and sexual relations between people and the acceptance of LGBTQ people into the military, will this not lead to increased sexual activity in the "pressure-cooker"?
- how many sackings can the undermanned 2017 Royal Navy absorb because of 'touching / sexual' activity at sea?

I'm all for old-school discipline within the military, but I ask again, in this latest case does the punishment fit the crime? Or does the RN have a surplus of experienced submarine commanders?
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  #10  
Old 04-10-2017, 15:26
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwyrosydd View Post
The attached article article from The Naval Review, April 1982 might be of interest in this context, shedding some light on what it was like 35-40 years ago.
I read the attachment with interest!

Quote "Offences of indecency:-
I was surprised to find that 'there's a lot of it about'. I know that 'rum, bum and baccy', or 'rum, sodomy and the lash' are supposed to have been the mainstays of the Navy in the past ...". Unquote.

A mouthful there ...
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  #11  
Old 04-10-2017, 19:01
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Hoole View Post
If you have ever served in a military organisation, then you would know that no favourable treatment of individuals (or even hint of it) can be permitted in the same unit, irrespective of rank or gender. It leads to jealousy and suspicion among those not indulged, impaired judgement of the persons involved and the potential breakdown of discipline.

That is why the display of such personal relationships, much less any physical manifestation of them, is taboo on board warships, including submarines. This applies especially to the Commanding Officer as his/her actions can easily be interpreted as an abuse of power or even bullying behaviour. Also, what happens when it all goes wrong and one of the parties feels seriously resentful towards the other? There is no escape for either of them. The 'no touching' rule on board RN warships serves a distinct purpose.

Ship-borne romances might be understandable but, in the final analysis, military discipline must prevail. The repercussions in the pressure-cooker environment of a warship at sea, living and working together possibly for months on end, are far more serious than for any 'office relationship' where the individuals concerned can easily avoid each other or escape the premises and go home each night.
Well said Rob - couldn't agree more.
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  #12  
Old 05-10-2017, 11:26
Mitch Hinde Mitch Hinde is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Hi All

Rob has got it dead right. When mixed ships companies first came into being it was destined to have a failure rate. I am quite surprised that the reported rate is so small. The people involved knew the consequences of discovery so they have no cause for complaint.

Mitch Hinde
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  #13  
Old 05-10-2017, 13:33
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

This regarding the death of a young female army recruit makes an interesting read.
While not being Navy, does this regime permeate throughout the three armed forces, and continue through the ranks to more mature/senior personnel?

Donnelly told the inquest there had been a “highly sexualised atmosphere” at the barracks and an “an abuse and misuse” of power, conceding it could be a “morally chaotic environment” for a teenage woman, that the pressure could be “intolerable” and that the Army “did not have the structures in place to provide a proper duty of care”.
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  #14  
Old 05-10-2017, 15:33
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al1934 al1934 is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwyrosydd View Post
The attached article article from The Naval Review, April 1982 might be of interest in this context, shedding some light on what it was like 35-40 years ago.
Thank you! I too have read it with interest. I left in '66 and, after reading that, I am glad I left in time!!!

I find the dress paragraph concerning one person who wore 'frilled turquoise
blouse, blue silk pierrot trousers, and black suede pixie boots' very scary indeed...
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  #15  
Old 07-10-2017, 12:39
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

I read today that the second in command has also been taken off the boat for committing a similar sin, though I believe with a different woman, at least I think it was a woman.

I was thinking about a suitable ditty to cover this, how about:

"No sea too rough, no muff too tough, we dive at five".

This followed by the sound of klaxons............
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Last edited by phill rose : 07-10-2017 at 12:50.
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  #16  
Old 07-10-2017, 12:42
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

@phill rose #15

!!
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  #17  
Old 07-10-2017, 18:55
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Exceptionally well put Rob Hoyle. I feel that only those of us who have partaken of a sea-going life are truly in a position to understand what it is that is at stake here. It is not about relationships, sexual or otherwise, it is about maintaining discipline and that skipper should have had more sense than to let things even begin between them.
Life on a warship is incomparable to life anywhere else and comes with its own special set of rules that in the interests of all should and must be adhered to by everyone.
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Old 07-10-2017, 19:38
Scatari Scatari is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Steer View Post

Exceptionally well put Rob Hoyle. I feel that only those of us who have partaken of a sea-going life are truly in a position to understand what it is that is at stake here. It is not about relationships, sexual or otherwise, it is about maintaining discipline and that skipper should have had more sense than to let things even begin between them.
Life on a warship is incomparable to life anywhere else and comes with its own special set of rules that in the interests of all should and must be adhered to by everyone.
Very well said Jan - methinks you've hit the proverbial nail right on the head.
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Last edited by Scatari : 07-10-2017 at 20:02.
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  #19  
Old 08-10-2017, 05:46
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by al1934 View Post
"Who spies on who?"

Sadly, this is what is happening now. Orwell was right...
Orwell was very right, regards many / all levels of society! We ('we' in general) gave up - and are still unfortunately willingly (or unwillingly as the case may be) giving up - our rights to / in the name of the terror demon long ago. But thats another story for another place.
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Old 08-10-2017, 13:45
Mitch Hinde Mitch Hinde is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Hi Allky

If I remember correctly there was plenty of touching on the Broadwalk at Mercury and down the Pinky. A place for everything.

Mitch Hinde
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  #21  
Old 08-10-2017, 19:29
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Remember what happened in the Garden of Eden, even God couldn't stop it. Eve tempted Adam and his punishment was to keep the knowledge that he had gained. We are all stuck with it, or so they say. Ray H
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  #22  
Old 09-10-2017, 11:36
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Absolute lunacy to have women onboard ships, let alone boats!

So guess where the idea originated.? No prizes...
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Old 09-10-2017, 13:02
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Times have changed Alick and one must move with them or stand accused of being a dinosaur I'm afraid. Women at sea is a reality and I feel that their contribution is just as valid and valued as that of their male colleagues.
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  #24  
Old 09-10-2017, 13:17
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Steer View Post
Times have changed Alick and one must move with them or stand accused of being a dinosaur I'm afraid. Women at sea is a reality and I feel that their contribution is just as valid and valued as that of their male colleagues.
Your opinion, Jan.

Mine you already know...
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Old 09-10-2017, 16:11
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: RN "No touching rule"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Steer View Post
Times have changed Alick and one must move with them or stand accused of being a dinosaur I'm afraid. Women at sea is a reality and I feel that their contribution is just as valid and valued as that of their male colleagues.
As the great soldier Moshe Dayan said later in his life "times change and I change with them" which may have just as well been said as' .......and I had to change........'

As much as some / many(?) of us may wish the past to be the present, it aint, and we will all be dragged into the future, kicking and screaming (or not), whether we like it or not.
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